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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 4:12 pm 
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Fee wrote:
mollyjade wrote:
People safely ride trains in the U.S. every day without even going through a metal detector. Why is a plane so different?


Not that I don't think this whole thing is ridic and all, but trains can only go so many places and only kill so many. A plane, as we all now know, can be flown into a building occupied by millions.


Can't they just lock the cockpit doors? I think the only reason the 9/11 attack was pulled off is because the flight staff wasn't prepared for that since before hostages had usually been returned and they just wanted to give them what they wanted. Now I don't think anyone would capitulate so a similar attack is so unlikely.

Plus think of all the places that terrorists could easily easily target like nuclear facilities, sports stadiums, major transit stations etc and they don't. It isn't because there is nude strip searching at these places.

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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 4:23 pm 
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LazySmurf wrote:
Can't they just lock the cockpit doors? I think the only reason the 9/11 attack was pulled off is because the flight staff wasn't prepared for that since before hostages had usually been returned and they just wanted to give them what they wanted. Now I don't think anyone would capitulate so a similar attack is so unlikely.



I agree, and I don't forsee any terrorist attacks happening and I'm pretty much the expert on what's going to happen. But I recognize a greater need for security in something like a plane rather than a train because of the potential (I'm also counting on the perpetrators recognizing the potential and they'd be more likely to hijack a plane for what they could do with it, rather than some other kind of vehicle). I don't think either of them need the level of security we now have, though.

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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 4:26 pm 
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IsaChandra wrote:
Nebraskalaska wrote:
This journalist not only smuggled all sorts of crazy stuff onto an airplane, he also got onto a flight using a fake boarding pass.

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/arc ... ried/7057/

I love the term "security theatre". I think this just goes to show that if a terrorist REALLY wants to get on a plane they can find a way to get on a plane.

Like pandacookie said, I think that our foreign policy needs a radical overhaul. I also think having air marshals on EVERY flight would be a lot better of an idea than virtually strip searching passengers. As of March only 1% of flights had air marshals on board ( http://www.cnn.com/2008/TRAVEL/03/25/siu.air.marshals/ ). I think the money we're spending on naked xray machines would be a lot better spent paying their salaries. Put more resources into pilot and flight attendent training programs. I'm just thinking out loud here, but I think the xray machines show a real lack of creativity and critical thinking on the part of TSA. Since it's inevetible that someone will slip through security I think the focus needs to be on how to deal with those situations.

But the idea that flying will ever be completely safe is hysterical. YOU ARE FLYING. That's kind of tempting fate.

That is a good idea! But can people stop calling people hysterical, naive, fat, stupid and ugly? I have a fear of flying. So sue me.

huh? i meant hysterical as in really, really, really, super, duper funny. As in that idea that flying can be 100% safe is really funny, I don't think anyone actually believes we can make flying completely safe, even TSA. In reading it again I can see where that would be confusing... I totally get and respect that people are afraid to fly, you don't choose what you're afraid of. I would be lying if I said I didn't get a little bit nervous before take-off.


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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 4:28 pm 
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If you want to opt out, please don't worry that it will be a big deal. Here's one guy's experience: http://blog.izs.me/post/1591805056/tsa-success-story

If the violation of your privacy doesn't bother you, the radiation risk (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3685/cancer-ray-opt-out.pdf) doesn't bother you, the fact that your government is treating you like a criminal doesn't bother you, well, consider that these expensive machines don't actually make anyone safer:

http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2 ... on_th.html
http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2 ... -body.html
http://www.schneier.com/essay-304.html


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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 4:34 pm 
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Nebraskalaska wrote:
IsaChandra wrote:
Nebraskalaska wrote:

But the idea that flying will ever be completely safe is hysterical. YOU ARE FLYING. That's kind of tempting fate.

That is a good idea! But can people stop calling people hysterical, naive, fat, stupid and ugly? I have a fear of flying. So sue me.

huh? i meant hysterical as in really, really, really, super, duper funny. As in that idea that flying can be 100% safe is really funny, I don't think anyone actually believes we can make flying completely safe, even TSA. In reading it again I can see where that would be confusing... I totally get and respect that people are afraid to fly, you don't choose what you're afraid of. I would be lying if I said I didn't get a little bit nervous before take-off.

Yes but before you was comments of people being naive and stuff. RE: your comment, I don't want to conflate fear of flying and fear of someone doing some effed up stuff to the plane while flying.

I didn't really think you called me ugly, I was just exaggerating your statement, mumble's epithets and BPS's before it.

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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 4:44 pm 
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Fee wrote:
Okay, sorry for exaggerating.


Rats.

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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 4:48 pm 
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By the way, I don't think terrorists' real goal is to kill the largest number of people they can. It's to cause the most disruption, the most fear, the most overreaction.

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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 5:34 pm 
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They've won again. The terrorists are really good at this game.

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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 6:23 pm 
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FootFace wrote:
By the way, I don't think terrorists' real goal is to kill the largest number of people they can. It's to cause the most disruption, the most fear, the most overreaction.


And if you're wrong, and they really do want to kill without first forking with our heads (they're merciful like that), they don't need planes to do so. Eesh.

I'm also tiring of the argument (that hasn't been presented here--so this is directed at mythical people who live outside the internet) that flying is a privilege, not a right, and one can choose not to fly. If flying is a choice, then so is the acceptance of a minimal amount of risk.

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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 7:09 pm 
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BluePlasticStraw wrote:
Anyone who thinks all of these security measures make us safer is ignorant or hopelessly naive. This is a very enlightening article on the uselessness of airport security: http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/arc ... ried/7057/


You know "misinformed" would have worked, but if you want to insult people to make a point, that's up to you.


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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 7:40 pm 
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nothingtosay wrote:
If you want to opt out, please don't worry that it will be a big deal. Here's one guy's experience: http://blog.izs.me/post/1591805056/tsa-success-story


Was just coming into this thread to post that link! It made me feel a little better about this country.

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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:07 pm 
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Remember when people could take lighters on airplanes?
My parents told me of days when people smoked on airplanes.
RandiJM wrote:
nothingtosay wrote:
If you want to opt out, please don't worry that it will be a big deal. Here's one guy's experience: http://blog.izs.me/post/1591805056/tsa-success-story
I love this guy's story, and that he gave that woman the facts. This whole situation is even more forked up than I initially thought. Imagine that- the government not presenting all of the facts.


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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:23 pm 
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Nebraskalaska wrote:
huh? i meant hysterical as in really, really, really, super, duper funny.

hysterical isn't as light-hearted a word as you think it is. more people know it as meaning "irrational", "insane", "hypochondria", "ridiculous"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hysteria
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/hysterical

"very funny" is only a secondary meaning (which came about because some people with hysteria had uncontrollable bouts of laughter.)

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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:26 pm 
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supercarrot wrote:
Nebraskalaska wrote:
huh? i meant hysterical as in really, really, really, super, duper funny.

hysterical isn't as light-hearted a word as you think it is. more people know it as meaning "irrational", "insane", "hypochondria", "ridiculous"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hysteria
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/hysterical

"very funny" is only a secondary meaning (which came about because some people with hysteria had uncontrollable bouts of laughter.)



i bet she knows that, but hysterical is pretty commonly used to mean funny. this post is kind of condescending and not really contributing to the topic at all.

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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:37 pm 
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ijustdiedinside wrote:
supercarrot wrote:
Nebraskalaska wrote:
huh? i meant hysterical as in really, really, really, super, duper funny.

hysterical isn't as light-hearted a word as you think it is. more people know it as meaning "irrational", "insane", "hypochondria", "ridiculous"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hysteria
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/hysterical

"very funny" is only a secondary meaning (which came about because some people with hysteria had uncontrollable bouts of laughter.)



i bet she knows that, but hysterical is pretty commonly used to mean funny. this post is kind of condescending and not really contributing to the topic at all.

ok, you can delete it if you like. sorry it sounds condescending. was just trying to spread info. (and also explaining why isa had seen it as offensive.) the "huh" made me think nebraska really didn't know the initial meaning.)

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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 9:11 pm 
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and to think, this could have all been avoided had I typed "hilarious" instead.

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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 10:57 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 1:37 am 
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I didnt read the 6 pages of this because Im lazy..but I have been opting out of this shiitake since it started. I have gotten the pat down and it didnt really bother me, but then again someone feeling my bits doesnt bug me, and the guys have never actually grabbed my wiener, they just brush past it with the backs of their hands

not that I care if they see me naked with the photo thing..thats their misfortune....I just dont like walking into the xray booth...I dont forking trust it, and the first time I went into one of those it made my contacts feel weird when it scanned me...sorry Im going to skip the eye cancer

I like the idea of the opt out day though, but they should make it all week....cause some of us have enough sense not to fly on the 24th. I'll opt out on the 22nd and the 30th thank you (assuming i dont hang myself after a week at the parents house)

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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 1:58 am 
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To be fair, some of us have to fly on the 24th, and sense has nothing to do with it...and those some of us also have very early morning flights for which we'll have to show up three or four hours in advance. Awesome.

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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 8:53 am 
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i liked how that guy from the atlantic pointed out that if the plot has already gotten to the point where the bombers are at the airport standing in line for security, the security system has already failed. all "the terrorists" have to do is flood the airport with as many bombers as necessary to get some of them through a patchy system. or fly out through small airports, or you know, hide bombs up their butts.

if i have to fly any time soon, i will be opting out, and trying to convince anyone else i can to opt out too. not sure that getting an "enhanced pat down" makes me feel any better though.


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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 9:58 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 10:15 am 
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Yeah, I'm taking the patdown every time. Not a fan of radiation or them being able to see when I'm on my period. No thank you.

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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 10:22 am 
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mollyjade wrote:
9) feel secure that a truly innocent joke wouldn't get you arrested
.



Now, my math teacher in HS was a joker, so maybe this wasn't true. But she was a joker, so it COULD have been.

Anyway, she said she got questioned and maybe arrested because she joked about a bomb, and this story was related in like 1995.

So, yeah this did happen then.

But I miss meeting people at the gate. In fact once in HS we hung out at the airport for FUN. Ran around with toilet set covers around our necks, dressed up stupid etc, for fun.

It probably was stupid, but it was stupid we could still do.

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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 10:26 am 
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Also, all it takes is the next problem solving terrorist to get another thing put on the list. There will be more things that are ok on planes now, but will soon be disallowed. We don't know what they are and they haven't always been caught til the last second (like the shoe bomber).

But the point is that HUMAN BEINGS ARE CRAFTY and will find new ways. The old ways are now old, so disallowing them doesn't really do ALL that much. Shoe bomber? Been done! Over it! Lets try something else. Even if they didn't check all the shoes, someone probably wouldn't try to bomb with shoes again.

Basically, its more of a "oops security messed up but we have to look hardlined so everything that made it through makes it on the list."

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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 11:05 am 
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you go, NJ!


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