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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 12:20 am 
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As they say, In the world of the invasive airport scanners the TSA muppet with a cell phone is king.

I think there is something inherently wrong with working on the assumption of people doing the wrong thing (whether that is passengers, or TSA peeps). I think there is so much wrong with this whole thing that focussing on maybe people will take a photo with their phone is the wrong thing to do (In terms of the Overton window).

I.e., Work up the outrage over xrays + people-looking-at-me-nude + everything else + possiblePictures, then give up the possiblePictures to satisfy people.

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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 4:16 am 
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Up to an $11,000 fine and arrest possible if you refuse to go through the scanner and refuse the pat down? So ridiculous
http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/state/11-000-fine-arrest-possible-for-some-who-1059926.html?cxntlid=cmg_cntnt_rss


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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 5:23 am 
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Location: In some dumb hotel in an equally dumb town...or in San Diego
this guy stole my idea...except my undies are tiger print...RAWRRR

http://www.examiner.com/county-politica ... iego-again

more fun in san diego...gotta love the police state of southern california

flying tomorrow to go visit the folks for the week, hope my opt out doesnt get me in trouble

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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 8:45 am 
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A little more horror.

http://fromtheleft.wordpress.com/2010/1 ... -in-urine/


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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 9:04 am 
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I suggest a much more effective form of protest: those flying this holiday season should do their best to contract a raging cause of herpes, strip down and insist the TSA touch their junk.

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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 11:56 am 
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Hapax Legomenon wrote:
FootFace wrote:
I'm not sure why private contractors would be better trained. A corporation providing this service might look at more extendive training as harming their bottom line. Take that, Mr. Elliptical.

Perhaps because they're easier to fire and held more accountable? Or at least they won't be able to bring a civil lawsuit against you for electing not to fly after you realize your options are nude photos or bad touch?


This is untrue.

First, in order to "hold a private corporation accountable," a person with an interest in doing so must have standing (that is, they must have a sufficient connection to the law/action challenged to support their participation in the case) and must have the fund necessary to mount a lawsuit against a major corporation. It's not as simple as getting groped by some private contracted security goon, calling up their employer's offices, and threatening legal action. These kinds of civil cases take a lot of money and a lot of time that the average person/victim does not have. This "accountability" is uneven at best.

Second, unlike governmental agencies like the TSA, private companies are not subject to constitutional scrutiny. In cases where fundamental constitutional rights, such as privacy rights, are at stake, it makes much more sense to me that the administering agency be held to constitutional scrutiny. It's also generally easier to be granted standing against a governmental agency than against a private corporation, which means that agencies like the ACLU can step in and gain standing, which means that it's not just up to individual complainants to come up with the money and time necessary to mount major lawsuits.

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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 12:49 pm 
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for anyone curious, I just went through security at oakland airport. There were 4 xray machines but they weren't being used. My theory is that even though they just announced they would not be suspending "enhanced" security measures for the holidays, they really are. I'm wondering what other airports are like?

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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 12:52 pm 
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Nebraskalaska wrote:
for anyone curious, I just went through security at oakland airport. There were 4 xray machines but they weren't being used. My theory is that even though they just announced they would not be suspending "enhanced" security measures for the holidays, they really are. I'm wondering what other airports are like?


I'm probably being too optimistic here, but I wonder if "opt-outs" are helping a bit?

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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 1:18 pm 
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tinglepants! wrote:
Nebraskalaska wrote:
for anyone curious, I just went through security at oakland airport. There were 4 xray machines but they weren't being used. My theory is that even though they just announced they would not be suspending "enhanced" security measures for the holidays, they really are. I'm wondering what other airports are like?


I'm probably being too optimistic here, but I wonder if "opt-outs" are helping a bit?


One can hope.


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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 3:46 pm 
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This is sort of bullshiitake. Should have figured the business end of all this was relevant too.
http://www.techdirt.com/articles/201011 ... cans.shtml


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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 3:48 pm 
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Quote:
(while also admitting that he doesn't have to go through security to get on airplanes, so he hasn't experienced the scans.)

Must be forking nice.

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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 4:17 pm 
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And now I have another reason to dislike Deepak Chopra!

Spoiler: show
No, it's not that Deepak Chopra.

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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 7:47 pm 
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If this happened to me, I would've thrown my urostomy bag at the TSA agents.

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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 8:03 pm 
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tinglepants! wrote:
If this happened to me, I would've thrown my urostomy bag at the TSA agents.


Oh my god that is heartbreaking, both in my feeling bad for the man and feeling bad about this country.

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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 8:34 pm 
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RandiJM wrote:
tinglepants! wrote:
If this happened to me, I would've thrown my urostomy bag at the TSA agents.


Oh my god that is heartbreaking, both in my feeling bad for the man and feeling bad about this country.

it's obvious that they wanted to break the bag. (after all, if the bag stayed shut without any investigating of the contents, they could have gotten in trouble. especially if it was gasoline in the bag.)

but yes. :-/ poor guy. even worse is that he had to clean himself in the airplane's tiny bathroom.

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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 10:15 am 
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Ugh I have to fly in Dec. I hate both options but I had decided to do the X-ray because the pat down is invasive in a way you can't ignore. But now this thread made me scared of the radiation and I don't know what to do.

I'm surprised about those nj politicians carrot posted. This may be the first in a long time I've agreed with republicans.

Also, this is all very Phil k. Dickian.

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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 10:34 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 11:01 am 
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I flew Kansas City to Dallas, Dallas to Los Angeles, Los Angeles to Chicago, Chicago to Kansas City about 3 days ago and I went through security at each airport and Never had to deal with a body scanner OR a pat down. It actually seemed more lax than the last time i flew which was a few weeks before.
I was slightly worried since I have a decent number of body piercings and around 9/11 when things were at their peak I ended up having to deal with that on a few different flights to DC. It was really embarrassing and upsetting at the time, but I was younger and didnt quite understand.

I used to fly A LOT more than I do now and for a while there, I was getting to the point where I would rather take the train, and let me tell you, I forking hate the train.

I am not a fan of the whole idea, trust me, but would I rather some bisque touch my vagina than have to deal with some whack-job and his box cutter.

I know this is ridiculous and your privacy is a right, but flying is NOT a right... so I feel comfortable enough to give up my rights in that way if I want to fly.


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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 11:15 am 
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hailseitan wrote:

I am not a fan of the whole idea, trust me, but would I rather some bisque touch my vagina than have to deal with some whack-job and his box cutter.


Sure, but there is absolutely no evidence that even suggests that this kind of invasive procedure, performed by unskilled workers, will make airplanes any safer than they were under the old procedures.

hailseitan wrote:
I know this is ridiculous and your privacy is a right, but flying is NOT a right... so I feel comfortable enough to give up my rights in that way if I want to fly.


Again, sure, but for lots of people, not flying isn't an option. Many people have to fly frequently for their jobs and don't have the ability to just say, "no, I don't like the scanners, so I'll take the Greyhound to that meeting. I hope you don't mind me being gone for 8 days instead of one!"

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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 11:29 am 
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hailseitan wrote:
I know this is ridiculous and your privacy is a right, but flying is NOT a right...

I see this talking point tossed around a lot, and it kind of bugs me because it's an oversimplification of the situation and can easily be interpreted as callous.

I mean, it might hold the tiniest bit of water if the new techniques were effective or necessary or anything by a money-making venture, but they're not.

There are several human rights that, for some people in certain situations, are only reasonably achievable through flight.

But more to the point, such statements conjure up images of throngs of merry-makers, martinis in hand, in a giant conga line waiting with breathless anticipation to get through security so they can join that great party in the sky. And this simply isn't the case. Many, many travelers would not be traveling if they could avoid it. There are those traveling for work (or working for the airline itself). Those on their way to a funeral or to spend time with a gravely ill loved one. There are those who are moving elsewhere to find a better life. There are children dragged along by their parents, who don't have a say in any of this. There are a myriad of reasons why people might find themselves on a flight, with little or no choice. It's not easy as "don't like it, don't fly."

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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 12:02 pm 
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Eppy wrote:
hailseitan wrote:
I know this is ridiculous and your privacy is a right, but flying is NOT a right...

I see this talking point tossed around a lot, and it kind of bugs me because it's an oversimplification of the situation and can easily be interpreted as callous.

I mean, it might hold the tiniest bit of water if the new techniques were effective or necessary or anything by a money-making venture, but they're not.

There are several human rights that, for some people in certain situations, are only reasonably achievable through flight.

But more to the point, such statements conjure up images of throngs of merry-makers, martinis in hand, in a giant conga line waiting with breathless anticipation to get through security so they can join that great party in the sky. And this simply isn't the case. Many, many travelers would not be traveling if they could avoid it. There are those traveling for work (or working for the airline itself). Those on their way to a funeral or to spend time with a gravely ill loved one. There are those who are moving elsewhere to find a better life. There are children dragged along by their parents, who don't have a say in any of this. There are a myriad of reasons why people might find themselves on a flight, with little or no choice. It's not easy as "don't like it, don't fly."


okay... heres the thing....
1st and foremost, I couldnt agree more that these techniques probably arent necessary and yes, they are probably just a money making venture and are about 80% useless.
BUT you said

"There are several human rights that, for some people in certain situations, are only reasonably achievable through flight."

name them.
seriously.
name them.

What human right is only achievable through flight?? I'm talking basic human rights, not the ridiculously spoiled rotten, over privileged NORTH AMERICAN version of human rights. Flying is a luxury, period. I know lots of people who have never even ridden an airplane and don't feel like their human rights have been violated.

you also said "Many, many travelers would not be traveling if they could avoid it. There are those traveling for work (or working for the airline itself). Those on their way to a funeral or to spend time with a gravely ill loved one. There are those who are moving elsewhere to find a better life. There are children dragged along by their parents, who don't have a say in any of this. There are a myriad of reasons why people might find themselves on a flight, with little or no choice. It's not easy as "don't like it, don't fly."

last time I checked EVERYONE has to do things they might not like to do, as I said before, Flying is a luxury, you ALWAYS have a choice to fly or not. Every example you have given of people who have "no choice" but to fly is ridiculous.
1. Businesspeople?- Get a job that doesnt require travel or dont WORK for an airline.
2. Going to a funeral?- Bus, Train, Car, Boat, Bicycle.... All different modes of transportation that are fully acceptable ways to get across the country/state/world. If you really MUST be there quicker and it is that important to you, perhaps you will ELECT to fly and arrive sooner.
3. Moving?- See answer to number 2
4. Parents and Children?- See answer to number 2

Don't like meat? Don't eat it.
Don't support the military? Don't join it.
Don't like _____? Don't _______

It's not like you are being body scanned every time you put a piece of food in your mouth... People survived for thousands of years without air travel long before we came around.
But I like the convenience of flying... So I will just have to play by the rules, no matter what the motive.


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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 12:19 pm 
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hailseitan wrote:
4. Parents and Children?- See answer to number 2


This doesn't make sense. An eight-year-old can't just give his dad the finger and hop a Greyhound to grandma's house.

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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 12:27 pm 
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hailseitan wrote:
Eppy wrote:
hailseitan wrote:
I know this is ridiculous and your privacy is a right, but flying is NOT a right...

I see this talking point tossed around a lot, and it kind of bugs me because it's an oversimplification of the situation and can easily be interpreted as callous.

I mean, it might hold the tiniest bit of water if the new techniques were effective or necessary or anything by a money-making venture, but they're not.

There are several human rights that, for some people in certain situations, are only reasonably achievable through flight.

But more to the point, such statements conjure up images of throngs of merry-makers, martinis in hand, in a giant conga line waiting with breathless anticipation to get through security so they can join that great party in the sky. And this simply isn't the case. Many, many travelers would not be traveling if they could avoid it. There are those traveling for work (or working for the airline itself). Those on their way to a funeral or to spend time with a gravely ill loved one. There are those who are moving elsewhere to find a better life. There are children dragged along by their parents, who don't have a say in any of this. There are a myriad of reasons why people might find themselves on a flight, with little or no choice. It's not easy as "don't like it, don't fly."


okay... heres the thing....
1st and foremost, I couldnt agree more that these techniques probably arent necessary and yes, they are probably just a money making venture and are about 80% useless.
BUT you said

"There are several human rights that, for some people in certain situations, are only reasonably achievable through flight."

name them.
seriously.
name them.

What human right is only achievable through flight?? I'm talking basic human rights, not the ridiculously spoiled rotten, over privileged NORTH AMERICAN version of human rights. Flying is a luxury, period. I know lots of people who have never even ridden an airplane and don't feel like their human rights have been violated.

you also said "Many, many travelers would not be traveling if they could avoid it. There are those traveling for work (or working for the airline itself). Those on their way to a funeral or to spend time with a gravely ill loved one. There are those who are moving elsewhere to find a better life. There are children dragged along by their parents, who don't have a say in any of this. There are a myriad of reasons why people might find themselves on a flight, with little or no choice. It's not easy as "don't like it, don't fly."

last time I checked EVERYONE has to do things they might not like to do, as I said before, Flying is a luxury, you ALWAYS have a choice to fly or not. Every example you have given of people who have "no choice" but to fly is ridiculous.
1. Businesspeople?- Get a job that doesnt require travel or dont WORK for an airline.
2. Going to a funeral?- Bus, Train, Car, Boat, Bicycle.... All different modes of transportation that are fully acceptable ways to get across the country/state/world. If you really MUST be there quicker and it is that important to you, perhaps you will ELECT to fly and arrive sooner.
3. Moving?- See answer to number 2
4. Parents and Children?- See answer to number 2

Don't like meat? Don't eat it.
Don't support the military? Don't join it.
Don't like _____? Don't _______

It's not like you are being body scanned every time you put a piece of food in your mouth... People survived for thousands of years without air travel long before we came around.
But I like the convenience of flying... So I will just have to play by the rules, no matter what the motive.


I can't think of basic human rights (so much as those exist) that are only obtainable through flying. However, as I mentioned above, there are a great many jobs that require flying. Sure, I'd still rather be unemployed and broke in North America than in Rwanda, and as such, sure, it's still a privileged problem, but that doesn't mean that the conflict between giving up one's personal integrity and privacy and keeping one's job is a trivial one. Especially in this economic climate, it is a flippant and unreasonable response to say "get a job that doesn't require travel and don't work on an airline" as if that solves the problem. Why should someone who has been perfectly happy in a job that requires that they fly fairly often have to give up that job (and any pension, seniority, etc. that they have accumulated) because the TSA is deciding to implement invasive and unproven "security" measures?

When I framed the question in terms of rights earlier, perhaps I confused the issue. What I meant was not that flying is a right/inalienable from the exercise of a right. What I meant was that this kind of thing (i.e. the porno scanners) serve no purpose BUT to encourage citizens to take their privacy rights less seriously. It is an erosion of our privacy rights in that it makes it more difficult for us to exercise those rights/maintain our personal integrity. This is, I hope you can agree, not a good thing.

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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 12:28 pm 
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When did magnetometers become ineffective at detecting metal objects like box cutters?

And what will we do when an evil doer arrives at the airport with explosives up his asparagus? The pornoscanners don't detect what's inside you. Will it be cavity searches all around? And will we all go along with that, too?

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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 12:33 pm 
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It's really not as plain and simple as - if you don't like it, take a bus. I don't have the luxury of having a job that would let me have multiple days off to get on a bus across the country. I'm paid hourly. I can't afford that. Many people can't.

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