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 Post subject: Re: UK health minister calls for 12 week abortion limit
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 11:02 am 
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pandacookie wrote:
It has nothing to do with the sanctity of life and everything to do with keeping women in their place. If we were concerned with the sanctity of life in the US it would be an entirely different country.


I have to disagree with this. I think there is a big part of it that is about keeping women in their place, and that is wrong. But I think the sanctity of life consideration is certainly in play.


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 Post subject: Re: UK health minister calls for 12 week abortion limit
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 11:31 am 
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pandacookie wrote:
JimXVX wrote:
To be completely honest I do find the idea of abortion simply because a preganancy is unwanted distasteful, but to me being pro-choice means I will always defend the right of women to choose this option even though I don't like it personally. Kind of like free speech - I might not like what some people have to say but I'd defend their right to say it.

But if you call yourself pro-choice and are defending the right of women to choose this option then you don't get to set a time limit. It doesn't matter what you find distasteful which is sort of a funny word to use for it. Check your prejudices before you wish to legislate to others.

Women should be able to choose at 30 weeks what they want to do with their bodies no matter what. Ain't no caveat in there for me. Vantine hit is square on the head in one of her links. It has nothing to do with the sanctity of life and everything to do with keeping women in their place. If we were concerned with the sanctity of life in the US it would be an entirely different country.


So if you believe in any form of regulation of abortion then you shouldn't be allowed to call yourself pro-choice? Again this kind of reinforces the point about how difficult it is to discuss this issue rationally.

At 30 weeks foetal viability is something like 95%, moreover the majority of kids born at this stage have no health complications. I reckon if you took a straw poll of the 'pro-choice' man & woman in the street the majority would not be in favour of abortion being permitted at this stage for anything but serious medical reasons.


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 Post subject: Re: UK health minister calls for 12 week abortion limit
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 11:36 am 
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Given that a number of anti choice people will have abortions when it is convenient to them and given the track record of legislation in the US against people who are other and given how we don't take care of people in this country after birth then I don't think many are concerned with life. People are concerned about the poor unborn children but not about those children once they are born and have real challenges to face. Legislators are not concerned about the sanctity of life for the women they legislate against. Again, the anti choice side wants to make it about these issues that they don't otherwise support in other facets of life. I have no doubt they think they are really fighting the cause for the fetus but I find it highly hypocritical for them to talk about 'sanctity of life' when their concern with life on this planet ends at that fetus.

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 Post subject: Re: UK health minister calls for 12 week abortion limit
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 11:46 am 
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JimXVX wrote:
So if you believe in any form of regulation of abortion then you shouldn't be allowed to call yourself pro-choice? Again this kind of reinforces the point about how difficult it is to discuss this issue rationally.

ha ha ha. I love it. Thank you for giving me a bingo with your rationality play. I'll have to call you irrational then for thinking an abortion is distasteful. That is the most irrational thing I have ever heard in my entire life and quite frankly I find it, shall we say, distasteful.

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 Post subject: Re: UK health minister calls for 12 week abortion limit
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 11:51 am 
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JimXVX wrote:
At 30 weeks foetal viability is something like 95%, moreover the majority of kids born at this stage have no health complications. I reckon if you took a straw poll of the 'pro-choice' man & woman in the street the majority would not be in favour of abortion being permitted at this stage for anything but serious medical reasons.

And again, so many women are out there getting abortions at 30 weeks for shiitakes and giggles. This doesn't need to be legislated. It could even be called irrational to spend time legislating against something that doesn't even happen. Like the voter fraud laws here in the US. Or maybe, just maybe, there is an ulterior motive at play. What could it be?

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 Post subject: Re: UK health minister calls for 12 week abortion limit
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 11:56 am 
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Timely news article:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/1 ... 53136.html
"A pro-life, family-values congressman who worked as a doctor before winning election as a Tea Party-backed Republican had an affair with a patient and later pressured her to get an abortion"

Anyway, I don't know about any limits being a good idea but I suspect that most women who get an abortion around months 6-7+ are doing it for health/medical issues. Even if they aren't, do we really want to have a value judgement to ensure that a woman continues her pregnancy to term. Would you want to carry a child that you knew would die shortly after birth? I know my mother had to carry her stillborn for a while before she could have an abortion and it was a traumatic experience for her to know she was carrying a dead baby.

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 Post subject: Re: UK health minister calls for 12 week abortion limit
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 12:27 pm 
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But JimXVX, you're making it about good reasons vs. bad reasons when you agree that there should be exceptions for dire medical circumstances. To me, that says "I trust a woman to make decisions for herself make as long as I think the reasoning is sound." First, late term abortions are a really small percentage of abortions. Really small. Second, the idea that women are carrying fetuses for 6-7 months, then on a saying "man, this is a drag. I change my mind, and am going to seek out an invasive, expensive surgery (that most doctors won't perform)" is ridiculous propaganda created by anti abortion advocates. Even if it does occasionally happen, it doesn't outweigh the fact that most women ARE getting late-term abortions under pretty dire conditions. Adding more red tape is only going to make something that's probably traumatizing already even worse.


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 Post subject: Re: UK health minister calls for 12 week abortion limit
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 12:32 pm 
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linanil wrote:
Timely news article:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/1 ... 53136.html
"A pro-life, family-values congressman who worked as a doctor before winning election as a Tea Party-backed Republican had an affair with a patient and later pressured her to get an abortion"

Anyway, I don't know about any limits being a good idea but I suspect that most women who get an abortion around months 6-7+ are doing it for health/medical issues. Even if they aren't, do we really want to have a value judgement to ensure that a woman continues her pregnancy to term. Would you want to carry a child that you knew would die shortly after birth? I know my mother had to carry her stillborn for a while before she could have an abortion and it was a traumatic experience for her to know she was carrying a dead baby.


rolling back time limits on legal abortion stigmatizes later abortion to a greater degree, even when exceptions are present in the legislation for circumstances related to health. i know two women who were told in their seventh month of pregnancy that their fetuses were no longer viable. these were babies they really wanted, and the emotional damage of the loss was terrible enough, but having to jump through medical/legal hoops or defend the decision to terminate on top of that is more than anyone in that situation should have to endure. these regulations don't affect only women who would rather not have a baby. but that's beside the point, anyway; it's often an extremely difficult choice, regardless of the reasons underlying it, and if you think any woman should have the right to an abortion, there's no defensible reason to make any part of it harder. any move to impose further limits on when it is and isn't acceptable for a woman to make that choice is a tacit nod to the people who are saying she probably shouldn't be doing it, and in that way it's ultimately a move against women's rights. given that there are medical professionals in this country who are reluctant (or who flat-out refuse) to prescribe birth control or morning-after pills because of their pro-life views, i'd say it's a huge mistake to assume that the fact that it's technically legal to get a late-term abortion for reasons x, y, and z will keep it from sometimes being unjustifiably difficult to obtain one.

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Last edited by acr on Thu Oct 11, 2012 12:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: UK health minister calls for 12 week abortion limit
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 12:35 pm 
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If you are pro-choice, you think that the decision should be left to a woman and her healthcare provider.

To re-imagine it in a way that it applies to men. Imagine you walk into your MD's office and say "My erections are soft and floppy." Your MD says "We have these pills for you." But then a third party jumps out from behind your doctor's chair and yells "BUT WHAT IS HE GOING TO DO WITH HIS ERECTION? Are we sure he's using it on his legally wed wife for the purpose of procreation? Because if not, its a sin and he shouldn't get to use it and you shouldn't get to prescribe it." But of course they're not going to ban it outright. If you bring in a marriage license you could get it, or they could put other restrictions in place, down to you having to go to your local judge, show just cause and get an order stating that you're not going to be using it in the commission of a sin.

kimba wrote:
pandacookie wrote:
It has nothing to do with the sanctity of life and everything to do with keeping women in their place. If we were concerned with the sanctity of life in the US it would be an entirely different country.


I have to disagree with this. I think there is a big part of it that is about keeping women in their place, and that is wrong. But I think the sanctity of life consideration is certainly in play.


If we believed life were sacred, we wouldn't have the death penalty, we wouldn't sell arms or wage war in foreign countries. And lest you think that its only adult lives we don't care about, if we thought the lives of children were sacrosanct, we would give paid maternity leave to mothers because it is proven to reduce infant mortality among a myriad of other things that we could do, if we truly believed that life were sacred.

But we don't. We act like life is sacred until conception (and many of the pro-life set believe that there should be exceptions for rape and incest, which wouldn't apply if we truly thought life was sacred no matter what).

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 Post subject: Re: UK health minister calls for 12 week abortion limit
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 1:15 pm 
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Tofulish wrote:
kimba wrote:
pandacookie wrote:
It has nothing to do with the sanctity of life and everything to do with keeping women in their place. If we were concerned with the sanctity of life in the US it would be an entirely different country.


I have to disagree with this. I think there is a big part of it that is about keeping women in their place, and that is wrong. But I think the sanctity of life consideration is certainly in play.


If we believed life were sacred, we wouldn't have the death penalty, we wouldn't sell arms or wage war in foreign countries. And lest you think that its only adult lives we don't care about, if we thought the lives of children were sacrosanct, we would give paid maternity leave to mothers because it is proven to reduce infant mortality among a myriad of other things that we could do, if we truly believed that life were sacred.

But we don't. We act like life is sacred until conception (and many of the pro-life set believe that there should be exceptions for rape and incest, which wouldn't apply if we truly thought life was sacred no matter what).


But you are talking about a general "we" - I do believe life is sacred, I don't believe in the death penalty, I hate guns, I think mothers should have maternity leave, and I am not alone. I am conflicted about abortion because of the life issue and I really don't know where to define it. My interest in women's rights makes me say abortions should be legal and not judged, but that is still in conflict with how I feel about a fetus (less so for an embryo) - and for me, that feeling does change the more the fetus is developed. It is also somewhat in conflict with how I feel about disability rights.

(I agree with you that those who use the life is sacred from conception argument might be hypocritical about rape/incest exception - I don't have anything to add about that.)


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 Post subject: Re: UK health minister calls for 12 week abortion limit
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 4:43 pm 
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I also think life is sacred - even POTENTIAL life is sacred and serious. I am a forking clergyperson for God's sake, and not the new-agey do-whatever-feels-good kind, either. It is one of the giant lies of the anti-choice movement that they believe in life and "sanctity" and we don't. But I also think there are more values at play here and that it's not my job to pass moral judgment on other women - because I trust them, I trust that THEY are a sacred part of God's creation, I trust THEIR wisdom, and I trust that they care about the life of their family more than anybody else in the entire world could possibly care about it (unless they are insane, which is certainly a possibility - but all the more so they probably would not make a great parent).

And deep down I really do believe that everything that makes it harder for them to exercise their extreme care and concern about their family is anti-woman, anti-family and anti-life. That includes limiting their ability to make reproductive choices with full freedom.

This is not just a war on rich whities who just love to hang out at the abortion clinic like it's a spa (obvious sarcasm I hope), it's a war on the entire population of women all over the world who are literally forking dying and watching their precious children literally forking dying in front of their eyes because of certain crassholes' regulations against reproductive freedoms. I just cannot take that. It hurts so, so much to know the truth of that. And when you hear people tell you how important it is for the UK to have abortion access because women in freaking Croatia are depending on it - does that not absolutely break your heart? Does it not kill you to know that regulations in the U.S. or Western Europe mean fewer doctors are being trained to do abortions which are so desperately needed in the developing world, let alone our own countries?


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 Post subject: Re: UK health minister calls for 12 week abortion limit
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 4:55 pm 
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An easy test to see if a platform is, in fact, pro-life is this:

1) against the death penalty?
2) support for medical interventions, resources to help parents raise disabled children
3) social service support to ensure all children have safe housing, food, medical care
4) advocate complete sex education in schools
5) ease of availability for a wide variety of birth control options

If one through five are checked off, then I will believe that an anti-choices is sincerely pro-life. Otherwise, it is just anti-woman, and anti-family.

If you are against choice and also adamant against numbers 4 and 5 (most anti-choice groups around here), I cant even imagine how productive dialogue could possibly occur.

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 Post subject: Re: UK health minister calls for 12 week abortion limit
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 5:07 pm 
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lavawitch wrote:
An easy test to see if a platform is, in fact, pro-life is this:

1) against the death penalty?
2) support for medical interventions, resources to help parents raise disabled children
3) social service support to ensure all children have safe housing, food, medical care
4) advocate complete sex education in schools
5) ease of availability for a wide variety of birth control options

If one through five are checked off, then I will believe that an anti-choices is sincerely pro-life. Otherwise, it is just anti-woman, and anti-family.

If you are against choice and also adamant against numbers 4 and 5 (most anti-choice groups around here), I cant even imagine how productive dialogue could possibly occur.


That's something that is so hard to understand, why anyone pro-life would not want 4&5. Like with the Catholic church, advocating against #5 (although most Catholics I know are pro #5, against the teachings of the church).


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 Post subject: Re: UK health minister calls for 12 week abortion limit
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 5:12 pm 
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Because, as Vantine pointed out, it is more a promotion of an entire world view and much, much less about "saving babies."

Actually, many of these groups are also against adoption because they believe in "sins of the fathers." The ATI crowd and others of that ilk won't adopt for those reasons. The Duggars fall into this camp. They are out supporting Fucqua (of the let's have a process to Biblically execute rebellious children fame).

The Catholic Church typically doesn't try to legislate as much as the religious right does, the Santorums and McDonnells aside.

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 Post subject: Re: UK health minister calls for 12 week abortion limit
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 5:22 pm 
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Ariann wrote:
This is not just a war on rich whities who just love to hang out at the abortion clinic like it's a spa (obvious sarcasm I hope), it's a war on the entire population of women all over the world who are literally forking dying and watching their precious children literally forking dying in front of their eyes because of certain crassholes' regulations against reproductive freedoms. I just cannot take that. It hurts so, so much to know the truth of that. And when you hear people tell you how important it is for the UK to have abortion access because women in freaking Croatia are depending on it - does that not absolutely break your heart? Does it not kill you to know that regulations in the U.S. or Western Europe mean fewer doctors are being trained to do abortions which are so desperately needed in the developing world, let alone our own countries?


I really think doctors (well, OBGYNs, not dermatologists or ENTs or whatever) should have to be trained to do abortions. I know my friend who is in that field had to be very selective with what residencies she applied to in order to make sure she went somewhere that was going to teach her what she needed to know. That's sad.


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 Post subject: Re: UK health minister calls for 12 week abortion limit
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 5:46 pm 
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kimba wrote:
I really think doctors (well, OBGYNs, not dermatologists or ENTs or whatever) should have to be trained to do abortions. I know my friend who is in that field had to be very selective with what residencies she applied to in order to make sure she went somewhere that was going to teach her what she needed to know. That's sad.


Absolutely. I don't know if Mayor Bloomberg's proposal ever came completely into effect (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/fr/604081/posts), although I think it did. He wanted to institutionalize abortion training in all OB-GYN residencies in NYC, where about 1/7 of U.S. OB-GYNs train.


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 Post subject: Re: UK health minister calls for 12 week abortion limit
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 6:05 pm 
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This is a good thread, and I want to hug Ariann.

Ariann wrote:
This is not just a war on rich whities who just love to hang out at the abortion clinic like it's a spa (obvious sarcasm I hope), it's a war on the entire population of women all over the world who are literally forking dying and watching their precious children literally forking dying in front of their eyes because of certain crassholes' regulations against reproductive freedoms. I just cannot take that. It hurts so, so much to know the truth of that. And when you hear people tell you how important it is for the UK to have abortion access because women in freaking Croatia are depending on it - does that not absolutely break your heart? Does it not kill you to know that regulations in the U.S. or Western Europe mean fewer doctors are being trained to do abortions which are so desperately needed in the developing world, let alone our own countries?


Amen <3

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 Post subject: Re: UK health minister calls for 12 week abortion limit
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 4:15 am 
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pandacookie wrote:
JimXVX wrote:
So if you believe in any form of regulation of abortion then you shouldn't be allowed to call yourself pro-choice? Again this kind of reinforces the point about how difficult it is to discuss this issue rationally.

ha ha ha. I love it. Thank you for giving me a bingo with your rationality play. I'll have to call you irrational then for thinking an abortion is distasteful. That is the most irrational thing I have ever heard in my entire life and quite frankly I find it, shall we say, distasteful.


At least I have tried to be respectful here when expressing my views & responding to questions (even when accussed of wanting to restrict access to medical treatment to victims of sexual violence), maybe you could try that?


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 Post subject: Re: UK health minister calls for 12 week abortion limit
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 4:58 am 
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JimXVX wrote:
pandacookie wrote:
JimXVX wrote:
So if you believe in any form of regulation of abortion then you shouldn't be allowed to call yourself pro-choice? Again this kind of reinforces the point about how difficult it is to discuss this issue rationally.

ha ha ha. I love it. Thank you for giving me a bingo with your rationality play. I'll have to call you irrational then for thinking an abortion is distasteful. That is the most irrational thing I have ever heard in my entire life and quite frankly I find it, shall we say, distasteful.


At least I have tried to be respectful here when expressing my views & responding to questions (even when accussed of wanting to restrict access to medical treatment to victims of sexual violence), maybe you could try that?


Seriously? The word "irrational" is loaded with misogynistic connotations, as it has a history of being used to derail and silence women's voices (along with "emotional", "illogical" and "hysterical"). So hard to talk rationally with these females! It's like they have strong feelings about the topic of their bodily autonomy or something!

There's nothing respectful about calling a woman's opinion "irrational" when she hasn't committed, you know, any errors in a formal logic proof - not to mention poor debate form.


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 Post subject: Re: UK health minister calls for 12 week abortion limit
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 8:04 am 
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Ok, I am going to ask everyone to calm down a little please.

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 Post subject: Re: UK health minister calls for 12 week abortion limit
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 9:52 am 
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JimXVX wrote:
At least I have tried to be respectful here when expressing my views & responding to questions (even when accussed of wanting to restrict access to medical treatment to victims of sexual violence), maybe you could try that?

Another classic. You get to call me irrational but then my response is not respectful. I see how your patriarchy works. We shall battle at noon, haiku as my weapon of choice.

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 Post subject: Re: UK health minister calls for 12 week abortion limit
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 9:55 am 
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I wish these hysterical women would just stop being irrational.

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 Post subject: Re: UK health minister calls for 12 week abortion limit
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 10:23 am 
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pandacookie wrote:
JimXVX wrote:
At least I have tried to be respectful here when expressing my views & responding to questions (even when accussed of wanting to restrict access to medical treatment to victims of sexual violence), maybe you could try that?

Another classic. You get to call me irrational but then my response is not respectful. I see how your patriarchy works. We shall battle at noon, haiku as my weapon of choice.

I would like to bake you two whole cakes, Panda.

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 Post subject: Re: UK health minister calls for 12 week abortion limit
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 10:48 am 
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The only truly pro-life belief is that all stuff in the universe should be converted from inert star dust into biological matter. Examples of pro-life policies and research goals: figuring out how to transmute less biologically useful elements into more useful material, researching alternate biologies, colonizing the solar system, and building habitats out of like trees or whatever. Eventually, if we're serious about it, devising von Neumann machines to endure the void between stars and land on other plants, pooping out life when they get there..

Everyone else is just frontin'.

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 Post subject: Re: UK health minister calls for 12 week abortion limit
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 11:23 am 
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i came back for the haiku battle and was disappointed by its non-happening, but then i remembered that it isn't noon yet in the land of pandacookie. i shall return. if no one is haikuing it out at 3:00 EST, i will express my displeasure via poorly crafted villanelle.

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