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 Post subject: Re: Pope Benedict is a big, fat quitter!
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 4:27 pm 
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I don't know any African cardinals, but the dozen or so African priests I've worked with have scared the bejeezus out of me with their perspectives on women's roles, contraception, etc. (I once got into a completely insane screaming match with a Nigerian priest about how I could compassionately care for a woman experiencing a 38-week stillbirth - and use the language of "baby" with her - while being adamantly pro-choice). I think so much of the Catholic Church's problems (from PR to providing spiritual sustenance for its followers to retaining western adherents) would be fixed by shifting the focus from the culture wars to a social justice paradigm (which, really, they do quite well when they put their minds and wallets to it). And of course the church has always been hierarchical, but it seems like there used to be much more for the laity to do in terms of meaningful activism (besides just marching in front of abortion clinics) - refocusing on that would be very helpful all around I think. Those are my hopes for the next papacy, as a respectful non-Christian.

I also hope the whole resignation thing becomes a model for how to end a papacy gracefully.


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 Post subject: Re: Pope Benedict is a big, fat quitter!
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 5:10 pm 
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All of the popeables are pretty horrifying. I wouldn't pope any of them!

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 Post subject: Re: Pope Benedict is a big, fat quitter!
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 5:29 pm 
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Ariann wrote:
It's not like the hierarchy of Catholicism in the developing world is liberal anyway. An African or Latin American who could get elected to pope is not going to be a liberal pope. And no pope is going to be elected who isn't old, because you can't get to the rank you have to be at to be elected without already being old. I'm not that offended by old. I have respect for experience.
All excellent points; I didn't mean to imply that "old" = "bad," but I can see how it would be read that way. As I noted in my earlier comment, the Church is basically a medieval institution; in fact, I'm not sure I believe it's even possible to be both "modern" and a truly observant, dogmatic Catholic.
mumbles wrote:
All of the popeables are pretty horrifying. I wouldn't pope any of them!

I would not pope him in a cope,
I would not pope him with a rope;
I would not trust that pontiff man,
Not even at the Vatican.
I do not like the pope of Rome;
I do not like him; take me home!

Also...
Q: What do you call a former pope?
A: Ex-Benedict!

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 Post subject: Re: Pope Benedict is a big, fat quitter!
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 5:41 pm 
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What's a "truly observant, dogmatic Catholic" has dramatically changed over the centuries, even Pope Benny would be a heretic by medieval standards, hell popes have been found guilty of heresy and ousted. The institution is old, but like anything, its far from unchanging, try as they might.

lavawitch wrote:
My use of old sort of wrapped up the whole dinosaur thing too. But, I do think a more active pope who travels more would probably be an improvement. And a pope from Africa or Ltin America might help shake things up a bit. It's all relative though and considering they aren't going anywhere, a teensy tiny, minuscule step to the left would still be better. I think that some of those cardinals may have a better perspective on some social issues. Again, better is relative.


Never happening, but it would be amazing if Gustavo Gutierrez succeeded Ratzinger.

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 Post subject: Re: Pope Benedict is a big, fat quitter!
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:06 pm 
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Desdemona wrote:

Also...
Q: What do you call a former pope?
A: Ex-Benedict!


*boom tish!*

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 Post subject: Re: Pope Benedict is a big, fat quitter!
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:17 pm 
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mumbles wrote:
All of the popeables are pretty horrifying. I wouldn't pope any of them!


Ratzinger? I hardly knew her!

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 Post subject: Re: Pope Benedict is a big, fat quitter!
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:22 pm 
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FootFace wrote:
mumbles wrote:
All of the popeables are pretty horrifying. I wouldn't pope any of them!


Ratzinger? I hardly knew her!


*boom tish!!*

(Ok, it's clearly time to turn off the computer and go to bed.)

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 Post subject: Re: Pope Benedict is a big, fat quitter!
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:42 pm 
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FootFace wrote:
mumbles wrote:
All of the popeables are pretty horrifying. I wouldn't pope any of them!


Ratzinger? I hardly knew her!

I feel like this is a pretty good note to end a papacy on.

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 Post subject: Re: Pope Benedict is a big, fat quitter!
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:59 pm 
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Quote:
Pope Benedict is a big, fat quitter!

HEY. no body shaming.

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 Post subject: Re: Pope Benedict is a big, fat quitter!
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:47 pm 
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my first thought when I heard the news this morning was "oh something did come out after his butler exposed those internal documents" and then I was surprised it is attributed to health concerns. I agree with whoever posted the guess about alzheimers/dementia.

Should be interesting. I was raised Catholic, but have series issues with the Church now, well with most organized religions actually. My favorite example: My parents' church has somebody take home a special chalice each week to pray over so that more men will enter the priesthood. I sit there thinking, um hello, you don't need to pray to solve this problem. There are married men that would love to be priests, and there are women that would love to be priests. God already sent you the answer to your prayers, but you are too stuck in the past to realize it.


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 Post subject: Re: Pope Benedict is a big, fat quitter!
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:09 am 
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FootFace wrote:
I wonder whether the next guy could ever be as good at covering up child rape.


I imagine they have a whole system for that. maybe even a training facility.. :(


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 Post subject: Re: Pope Benedict is a big, fat quitter!
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:27 am 
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chiveggie wrote:
My favorite example: My parents' church has somebody take home a special chalice each week to pray over so that more men will enter the priesthood. I sit there thinking, um hello, you don't need to pray to solve this problem. There are married men that would love to be priests, and there are women that would love to be priests. God already sent you the answer to your prayers, but you are too stuck in the past to realize it.


HA! I agree! I loved being Catholic for the ritual and the community. I love that you can go anywhere and know the prayers and be welcomed. The music and the ritual pieces of it feed my soul. The readings are a huge link to my past and I love the issues we discuss.

But I can't live with certain choices - mostly the active opposition and funding of the movement against genderless marriage. I was in Church and after an amazing sermon on how God's love unites us all, they passed a petition against gay marriage. Because those people don't need marriage. I just thought no one would sign but so many did. I can't be part of that. Love is love you jerks.

If the Catholic Church moved to the left and became about social justice again, like it is in many countries, I would be back in the pews in a heartbeat. But they won't.

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 Post subject: Re: Pope Benedict is a big, fat quitter!
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:29 am 
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bathsheba wrote:
I want to get big into some pope-spiracy theories but I feel like he's probably actually just really sick. If that is the case, good job for quitting.

I think so too, and I don't give two shiitakes about the benedict. But I do like the word papacy a lot.

Fun fact! My last name comes from theatrical circle plays from Medieval England. Basically, my ancestors played the Pope's role. So clearly I should be Pope, even though I care nothing about Catholicism. I know the Hail Marys. That's enough!

Jeez.

Quote:
Vatican sources have offered tidbits of information about that future. Vatican spokesperson Federico Lombardi said that Benedict "will move to the Papal residence in Castel Gandolfo [24 km south of Rome] when his resignation shall become effective." Once renovations to the monastery of cloistered nuns inside the Vatican are completed, Benedict will live there.

That will be quite different to what happened to Celestine after he resigned. Celestine's successor, Boniface VIII, who had both advocated for and manipulated Celestine to resign, "immediately realized that it's not in his interest to have another pope still alive and walking around, so he had him hunted down and imprisoned in a castle, where he died two years later," Sweeney says.

Celestine's desire had been to return to his earlier life as a hermit.

Since Celestine did not get the chance to have a public life after stepping down, there's little precedent there to guide the Vatican today. Lombardi did say that Benedict will not join the cardinals in choosing the next pope, most of whom he appointed. The rules state that a cardinal has to be under 80 years old to take part in the conclave, and Benedict is 85.


Get those cloistered nuns out of my retirement community!


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 Post subject: Re: Pope Benedict is a big, fat quitter!
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:37 am 
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Tofulish wrote:
If the Catholic Church moved to the left and became about social justice again...

this is what kills me here. the church used to be extremely active in social justice [here at least], but the last military dictatorship somehow managed to get the church to shut up and butt out. now they focus more of their energy on hate, the way it looks to me, instead of being a force for change and reduction of misery. (hate gays! hate evangelicals!) I also just don't see them being an option any more, and i refuse to participate in anything that brings money to the catholic church (for example, most private schools here use a curriculum that is from a catholic school.)
while my perspective is from the far left, the locals here (who are pretty staunchly catholic) seem to have turned this into some kind of popularity contest- everyone's hoping that the new pope might be Brazilian and, somehow, the new John Paul II, and will pick up where he left off. I am so used to thinking that the pope is a douche that i hadn't really remembered how much people loved John Paul, and what potential that had.

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 Post subject: Re: Pope Benedict is a big, fat quitter!
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:55 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Pope Benedict is a big, fat quitter!
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 12:11 pm 
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Tofulish wrote:
If the Catholic Church moved to the left and became about social justice again, like it is in many countries, I would be back in the pews in a heartbeat. But they won't.


There are parishes that are like that in the US, but I imagine the number is dwindling. I imagine it's getting harder to form a community to band together like that in the US, though, because there are so many non-American (and cultural discordant) priests leading communities who are then far less likely to spend 40 years in one parish growing up with the community and working on its issues. Our local churches have older Italian or Irish-American priests, but when they retire there's not going to be anyone from the neighborhood to replace them.

(P.S. I've said it to you before, but if you like the musical bit and nice sermons without the gay-bashing and woman-hating, you should check out the Episcopalians, they tend to be quite nice.)


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 Post subject: Re: Pope Benedict is a big, fat quitter!
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 1:41 pm 
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torque wrote:
Tofulish wrote:
If the Catholic Church moved to the left and became about social justice again...

this is what kills me here. the church used to be extremely active in social justice [here at least], but the last military dictatorship somehow managed to get the church to shut up and butt out. now they focus more of their energy on hate, the way it looks to me, instead of being a force for change and reduction of misery. (hate gays! hate evangelicals!) ... I am so used to thinking that the pope is a douche that i hadn't really remembered how much people loved John Paul, and what potential that had.


I loved JP2! I lived in Austria when the Pope was standing with the Polish people and Solidarity against Communism, after the murder of Jerzy Popieluszko. It was amazing. I remember hearing him speak and being so moved at the power of the Church to stand up for what was right and to be a force for social justice speaking up against the government.

I went backpacking in Guatemala in 1995 at a time when the government was cracking down on guerrillas (Guerrilla Army of the Poor) and the government singled out the Catholic Church and there were priests and nuns being raped, tortured and killed for standing up against them. At the same time, there were new Protestant churches in every village we traveled through, because the government found them easier to control because they were less powerful and easier to control and didn't recognize the Vatican over the national government. I think that signaled a big choice for the Catholic Church - either you stand with the poor and we murder your people and you lose the footholds you have in Central and South America as we favor Protestant churches or you back off and then you can be in favor, get money from the wealthy Catholics and push your other agendas with the faithful.

I think the Catholic Church has the potential to be a tremendous force of good in the world because they are independent of national governments. I loved it when Pope Benedict spoke up against the death penalty for example. I wish we could go back to being a moral force in the world standing up for the oppressed and marginalized instead of standing with the rich and pushing this anti-sex/anti-poor agenda.


Ariann wrote:
(P.S. I've said it to you before, but if you like the musical bit and nice sermons without the gay-bashing and woman-hating, you should check out the Episcopalians, they tend to be quite nice.)


I actually checked out the church that everyone recommended, and it was nice enough. Leela screamed the whole time though. And to be honest, I still felt like it wasn't right for me. I'm pretty much Catholic to the bone. Everything else is a sad reminder of what I miss.

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 Post subject: Re: Pope Benedict is a big, fat quitter!
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 3:27 pm 
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Aw :(

Yeah, I was totally shocked when I was in the rural Yucatan that the town was split evenly among Catholics, Evangelicals of some variety, and I think Jehovah's Witnesses or something unusual like that.


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 Post subject: Re: Pope Benedict is a big, fat quitter!
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 3:33 pm 
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When we went to Belize, there were a lot of evangelical type Americans there, it seemed all the schools were run by them. They seemed to provide some of the support that Catholics used to provide in central/south america. Basically, if you want support, you can follow the Catholics that have been there for hundreds of years, or the evangelicals and Jehovah's witnesses that are actively in the area trying to win you over by offering you food, clothing, schooling, etc. I don't see the Catholic church actively trying to win people over like the evangelicals, at least not any more.

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 Post subject: Re: Pope Benedict is a big, fat quitter!
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 4:07 pm 
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Yes the mission thing is huge. But there was a whole campaign against the Catholic Church in the 80s especially around the murder of priests and nuns and others, including Archbishop Oscar Romero, where the governments in El Salvador and Guatemala among others were singling out Catholic priests and nuns doing work with the poor and oppressed against the wishes of the governments of those countries. That was part of the Liberation Theology movement, which Ratzinger condemned. Its a really complicated history and pretty offtopic from this thread though! I'd love to discuss it elsewhere if people are interested.

Re the Evangelicals: One of my many exes is super-Christian (he has a lot of other redeeming qualities) and flies missions into Africa. Its pretty conflicting to me, because so much of it is directed towards going to people who need resources and offering them resources (schools, hospitals etc) on the condition that they convert. So its good that they do a lot for people but only if they adopt their agendas. I don't donate to him, even though he has asked and I adore him and would happily donate if it were anything else. He is one of the people who give me hope about Christians though, he is one of the kindest and best people I have ever known. He'll help anyone and give them the shirt off his back or the shoes off his feet if they need it, and he has almost nothing himself. I am inspired by his goodness, but the church he is part of makes me sick.

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 Post subject: Re: Pope Benedict is a big, fat quitter!
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 7:10 pm 
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I've got a friend who is a missionary. She and her husband live in Arizona, near two reservations, and they teach music to the kids on the reservations. They don't require anyone to convert or anything -- they pretty much just let it be known that they are Christian, and they are running this music school as a Christian mission, and anyone who wants to know more can ask.


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 Post subject: Re: Pope Benedict is a big, fat quitter!
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 6:14 pm 
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As one of my friends said, "We all knew that Ratzinger was the rebound pope." I do remember hearing they picked him because they knew he'd be a short term pope anyway so they could really focus on finding the next one.

Also, sounds like there might be a money laundering scandal? So, maybe it IS bigger than even the sex abuse thing, now, with more corruption!

Also, i was born to be a lapsed Catholic. Pope John Paul I was only pope for a month, died the day I was born. Conspiracy theory goes that he was actually killed because they had new fears he'd be too radical and progressive. Too bad, that might have kept the Church relevant. Sorry Catholicism for the closing churches, but you did it to yourself!

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 Post subject: Re: Pope Benedict is a big, fat quitter!
PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 9:53 am 
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http://itccs.org/2013/02/13/pope-benedi ... by-easter/

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 Post subject: Re: Pope Benedict is a big, fat quitter!
PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 1:17 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Pope Benedict is a big, fat quitter!
PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 2:41 pm 
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Well, they've just elected the new one:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-21777494
The first Latin American and the first Jesuit to be pope, apparently.

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