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 Post subject: Re: Explosions at Boston Marathon finish line
PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 9:05 am 
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I'm happy there are no more tanks rolling around Boston (because, seriously?!), but yeah -- a lot of things leave me uncomfortable. I hope a fair and proper investigation will be done, and that the media can leave Islam and skin color (or, well, "lack" of skin color) out of it. I also still hope the Post will apologize for posting that other teenager's face and letting tons of people believe it was him.

eta: Seriously? They didn't mirandize him? Is that some kind of Patriot Act loophole?

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 Post subject: Re: Explosions at Boston Marathon finish line
PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 9:11 am 
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There's a very narrow "public safety" exception to the Miranda rights (has nothing to do with 9/11 or Patriot Act, I think it was created in the 80's).

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 Post subject: Re: Explosions at Boston Marathon finish line
PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 9:16 am 
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Also, how the hell do people not know there's a difference between Chechen and Czech???

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 Post subject: Re: Explosions at Boston Marathon finish line
PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 9:18 am 
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lutin wrote:
I'm happy there are no more tanks rolling around Boston (because, seriously?!), but yeah -- a lot of things leave me uncomfortable. I hope a fair and proper investigation will be done, and that the media can leave Islam and skin color (or, well, "lack" of skin color) out of it. I also still hope the Post will apologize for posting that other teenager's face and letting tons of people believe it was him.

eta: Seriously? They didn't mirandize him? Is that some kind of Patriot Act loophole?
Mr. Shankly wrote:
There's a very narrow "public safety" exception to the Miranda rights (has nothing to do with 9/11 or Patriot Act, I think it was created in the 80's).
Read more here:

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2013/04/dzhokhar_tsarnaev_and_miranda_rights_the_public_safety_exception_and_terrorism.html

Is anyone really surprised? Anyone want to lay bets on how soon they'll find a justification for waterboarding a critically injured patient in his hospital bed?

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 Post subject: Re: Explosions at Boston Marathon finish line
PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 9:24 am 
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Mr. Shankly wrote:
Also, how the hell do people not know there's a difference between Chechen and Czech???



Ha, my people are a little better at peacefully breaking up with other countries. But I haven't seen confusion.. maybe it has to do with the West, TX explosion? West is a Czech town.


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 Post subject: Re: Explosions at Boston Marathon finish line
PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 9:28 am 
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lutin wrote:
I'm happy there are no more tanks rolling around Boston (because, seriously?!)


I don't think there were in the first place-- armored cars and personnel carriers and a couple of specially-equipped bomb squad vehicles, yes, but nothing with tracks. Stuff like that is hard to use in cities-- if nothing else, they tend to tear up the roads.

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 Post subject: Re: Explosions at Boston Marathon finish line
PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 10:21 am 
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Question on the Miranda Rights. If they don't read them to you, don't you still have them? I have watched enough Law and Order shows that I know them by heart. If I get arrested and they don't read them to me, don't I still have the right to ask for a lawyer and keep my mouth shut?


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 Post subject: Re: Explosions at Boston Marathon finish line
PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 10:30 am 
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Angelina wrote:
Question on the Miranda Rights. If they don't read them to you, don't you still have them? I have watched enough Law and Order shows that I know them by heart. If I get arrested and they don't read them to me, don't I still have the right to ask for a lawyer and keep my mouth shut?

Not everyone does know them, though. And you always have these rights- reading the Miranda rights is the responsibility of authorities to inform you of your rights and you have them whether or not you know it which is why it's important to inform people of these rights because it can come back to bite the authorities in the asparagus during a trial.

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 Post subject: Re: Explosions at Boston Marathon finish line
PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 10:39 am 
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8ball wrote:

The detainee is a suspect, so it's not yet 100% confirmed that he was responsible?
If so, why are people celebrating his arrest?


also the other thing that i dont think people have mentioned is that when they carjacked someone they said to him they were the ones responsible for the Marathon Bombing and they had just killed a police officer and to do what they said or they would kill him (her?).

plus they had been tossing homemade hand grenades out the window at the police during the big confrontation.
i think there was enough substantial evidence for people to believe that yes these people were the people who were responsible for the crimes to want to celebrate feeling safe again once the last one was caught.

i personally feel like that's what the celebrating was about. that feeling that you were safe again and could walk down your own street like Nicole mentioned.

technically and legally he is still a suspect yes.

as far as the Miranda rights thing goes when they had a press conference on the local news last night of like the governor, the mayor, the police commisioner, the police chief from Watertown, the FBI special agent in charge, and 800 other people they had a US Attorney there and she said there is an exception to this in terms of terrorism and public safety.

to be honest im not sure why they *didnt* read him his rights, i mean they had him on the ground and were cuffing him like any other arrest, wouldnt that have been the perfect time to do it?
i dont know why they didnt. seems weird but i guess they are covered in that sense.

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 Post subject: Re: Explosions at Boston Marathon finish line
PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 10:43 am 
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Angelina wrote:
Question on the Miranda Rights. If they don't read them to you, don't you still have them? I have watched enough Law and Order shows that I know them by heart. If I get arrested and they don't read them to me, don't I still have the right to ask for a lawyer and keep my mouth shut?


i think so! im no legal expert but i think if you are arrested for a crime and you are not read your Miranda Rights then you can get your case thrown out.

that would be for "normal" every day arrests though and not for acts of terrorism.

im not sure that is right but that seems to be what happens.

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 Post subject: Re: Explosions at Boston Marathon finish line
PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 11:16 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Explosions at Boston Marathon finish line
PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 11:40 am 
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Mr. Shankly wrote:



I don't think this is funny, but I don't find it offensive either.


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 Post subject: Re: Explosions at Boston Marathon finish line
PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 11:42 am 
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LisaPunk wrote:
Angelina wrote:
Question on the Miranda Rights. If they don't read them to you, don't you still have them? I have watched enough Law and Order shows that I know them by heart. If I get arrested and they don't read them to me, don't I still have the right to ask for a lawyer and keep my mouth shut?


i think so! im no legal expert but i think if you are arrested for a crime and you are not read your Miranda Rights then you can get your case thrown out.


I thought it was just that any confession you made couldn't be used against you, not necessarily that your case would be thrown out?

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 Post subject: Re: Explosions at Boston Marathon finish line
PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 12:25 pm 
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maybe that is it.

like i said definitely not a legal expert i just know if you're not read your Miranda Rights when your arrested you can use that in your court case.

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 Post subject: Re: Explosions at Boston Marathon finish line
PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 1:00 pm 
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LisaPunk wrote:
maybe that is it.

like i said definitely not a legal expert i just know if you're not read your Miranda Rights when your arrested you can use that in your court case.


But not with the public safety exception that is being claimed.

I did hear though that they decided to read him his rights at the hospital instead of when he was arrested. I can't remember where I read that-- and I'm not sure what the benefit of waiting til the hospital to do it would be-- so take it with a grain of salt.

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 Post subject: Re: Explosions at Boston Marathon finish line
PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 1:07 pm 
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MSNBC is reporting that he's not going to be read his rights before interrogation?? I think that's just idiotic. Why on earth not?

And thinking about this I still do think that searching homes door to door without any specific probable cause for any of the houses is questionable. I mean, it's possible everyone consented, but I would have said no. I mean, I couldn't stop them from searching my house anyway, but just..no. What is this, British colonial days?


Plus, wasn't the guy finally found based on a phoned in tip or something when the lockdown and searching was stopped? So it doesn't seem to have been very useful.


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 Post subject: Re: Explosions at Boston Marathon finish line
PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 1:20 pm 
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Shy Mox wrote:
The media seems to just be like "Oh they're Muslim, that explains it." But its so shitty at best.


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 Post subject: Re: Explosions at Boston Marathon finish line
PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 1:41 pm 
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annak wrote:
MSNBC is reporting that he's not going to be read his rights before interrogation?? I think that's just idiotic. Why on earth not?

Because of the aforementioned public safety exception. They want to try to get information out of him about any other potential threats to the public. Whether or not this exception is a good thing to have in the big picture sense, I don't know.

As far as the lockdown, while it was an observant resident who ultimately spotted him, having the streets cleared of civilians and crawling with law enforcement all day forced him to hide and stay put, so it was effective in that sense. Who knows where he could have gone otherwise.


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 Post subject: Re: Explosions at Boston Marathon finish line
PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 1:51 pm 
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I wonder if, as a result of the events in Boston, there'll be any changes at the London marathon tomorrow such as added security or a greater police presence.


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 Post subject: Re: Explosions at Boston Marathon finish line
PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 2:00 pm 
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Amy wrote:
annak wrote:
MSNBC is reporting that he's not going to be read his rights before interrogation?? I think that's just idiotic. Why on earth not?

Because of the aforementioned public safety exception. They want to try to get information out of him about any other potential threats to the public. Whether or not this exception is a good thing to have in the big picture sense, I don't know.

As far as the lockdown, while it was an observant resident who ultimately spotted him, having the streets cleared of civilians and crawling with law enforcement all day forced him to hide and stay put, so it was effective in that sense. Who knows where he could have gone otherwise.



I don't argue with the existence of an exception, and I'm sure they probably think they have enough evidence to convict him without a confession, and that's fine too. They are making a choice, and their choice isn't necessarily illegal. But I think it's still a poor decision not to read him his rights. Yes, it's possible that there's still a device somewhere that is a danger to public safety, or an accomplice no one knows about. Yes, it's possible that he might talk about it, on time to facilitate an arrest or avoid harm, and that the difference between him confessing and not is whether his miranda rights are read...but I doubt it. I think that would require a lot of things to align just so, and I do not think the likelihood justifies it.


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 Post subject: Re: Explosions at Boston Marathon finish line
PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 2:01 pm 
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8ball wrote:
I wonder if, as a result of the events in Boston, there'll be any changes at the London marathon tomorrow such as added security or a greater police presence.


MSNBC was reporting a 40% planned increase in police presence, as one concrete thing. The marathon is also planning on donating $3 for every finisher to Boston victims.


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 Post subject: Re: Explosions at Boston Marathon finish line
PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 2:05 pm 
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I found this post to be a good quick-and-dirty layman's explanation of the Public Safety Exception.


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 Post subject: Re: Explosions at Boston Marathon finish line
PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 2:11 pm 
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takecare wrote:
LisaPunk wrote:
maybe that is it.

like i said definitely not a legal expert i just know if you're not read your Miranda Rights when your arrested you can use that in your court case.


But not with the public safety exception that is being claimed.

I did hear though that they decided to read him his rights at the hospital instead of when he was arrested. I can't remember where I read that-- and I'm not sure what the benefit of waiting til the hospital to do it would be-- so take it with a grain of salt.


There is an exception if they take someone into custody who is seriously injured/ill and they're just not taking the time to do it then. They may have just been waiting to see if he lived or not, they probably weren't going to start questioning him if he were bleeding to death.

It seems to me that there are lots of examples where they arrest someone in the middle of a crime and need information to preserve others' safety from that suspect, like if they arrest someone for kidnapping and the kidnapped person hadn't been found yet. In that case the suspect shouldn't have a rit to keep quiet. I don't think that's unreasonable. If they think there are bombs out there that might go off at a later time or accomplices who need to be found, I would understand being permitted to question him differently than someone who is being accused when there is no more danger to others.


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 Post subject: Re: Explosions at Boston Marathon finish line
PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 2:17 pm 
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Just read the link above. Dunno what to think about that. We certainly don't need Americans being treated like we now treat foreign suspects of terror on American soil.


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 Post subject: Re: Explosions at Boston Marathon finish line
PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 2:18 pm 
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OK, possibly MSNBC is full of shiitake (wouldn't be the first time - when I turned it off this morning they were saying idiotic stuff about the suspects' mother's statement even though her language use clearly arose from incorrect use of false cognates between Slavic and English languages). But they were reporting that they are planning on interrogating him later and planning not to read him his rights. As far as I know (as a layperson) you still HAVE those rights even if they aren't read, and according to think link above this exception can only apply to a few cursory questions to ensure public safety, after which rights must be read. I'm fine with that. The implication was that they might continue to question him without reading his rights, and if true, I think that is a major compromise of our values as a country without much added practical value.


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