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 Post subject: Re: Explosions at Boston Marathon finish line
PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 6:37 pm 
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Ariann wrote:
Just read the link above. Dunno what to think about that. We certainly don't need Americans being treated like we now treat foreign suspects of terror on American soil.


I would say that we certainly don't need any human beings being treated like the USA now treats foreign suspects of terror on American soil.

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 Post subject: Re: Explosions at Boston Marathon finish line
PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 8:28 pm 
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Tofulish wrote:
Me too. And its sad, but bc he hasn't been charged yet, it looks like they are questioning him without Mirandizing (which fits under the public safety exception bc they are concerned about other unexploded devices) and without counsel. http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/201 ... mbing-sus/

No matter what anyone has done, its still important to us as a country to respect due process. I think that is what bothers me most about Guantanamo and the other treatment of terrorists (including eco-terrorists like Daniel McGowan). Give him a fair trial, let him have good representation and present a real defense and then sentence him. Don't torture people (including using CMUs) no matter what they've done. Manage prisons and don't let people be the victims of violence in prison and don't justify terrible conditions in prisons (lack of medical care, violence, poor conditions) with the fact that they're in prison so who cares.


you're really calling Daniel McGowan a terrorist? Convicted arsonist, definitely. Sorry for the hijack but I can't see lumping him in with people who kill people. Yes I'm aware that a terrorist "enhancement" was applied to his sentence but I don't buy into that at all. Anyway, back to Boston.


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 Post subject: Re: Explosions at Boston Marathon finish line
PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 8:35 pm 
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i don't think she's calling him that, i think she's pointing out that the government was careful to label him a terrorist so they could throw the book at him despite no loss of human life and start the ALF witchhunts and infiltration of vegan potlucks.

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 Post subject: Re: Explosions at Boston Marathon finish line
PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 9:07 pm 
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torque wrote:
i don't think she's calling him that, i think she's pointing out that the government was careful to label him a terrorist so they could throw the book at him despite no loss of human life and start the ALF witchhunts and infiltration of vegan potlucks.
THIS.

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 Post subject: Re: Explosions at Boston Marathon finish line
PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 9:13 pm 
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You know, I could have worded that better, and said "environmentalists and other social justice activists/advocates who have been subjected to labeling as terrorists under AETA." Apologies to anyone who was offended if that wasn't clear.

I know Daniel, and I think he is one of the best people I have ever met. I contributed to his defense fund, my "Free Daniel McGowan" shirt is still my favorite shirt, and I respect him so much for both his integrity and his kindness.

The point I was making is that when our country labels someone a terrorist, they lose their rights to due process and many of the protections that our criminal justice system offers. Daniel was sentenced to the 7 year terrorism enhancement, which resulted in him being classified as a terrorist by the BOP, which is why he was sent to the CMUs (rather than the minimum security prison anyone who was merely convicted of arson would have been sent to) and subjected to isolation. I think Daniel is tremendously brave to speak up for any of the people who are being sent to those CMUs, despite the threats to himself and his liberty. Here is his piece that HuffPo ran, which got him reincarcerated: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/daniel-mc ... 44580.html

And (please forgive the slight threadjack) I think that many of the people who are currently labeled as terrorists, who sit in places like Guantanamo for over 10 years, not being charged, not allowed counsel, not being given any right to a speedy trial or any other due process and being forcefed by untrained personnel, aren't "people who kill people" either. Many of them are there with no real evidence against them etc. And the really sad thing is that because they are labeled as terrorists, our government can do whatever they want with them - they can render them to foreign countries, have them tortured, killed, follow them in drones and wipe out their families. All with no evidence, no procedural safeguards and no due process of any kind. Its pretty terrifying.

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Last edited by Tofulish on Mon Apr 22, 2013 9:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Explosions at Boston Marathon finish line
PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 9:13 pm 
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I see. I was thrown off by what seemed like a co-opting of the governments' terminology.

ETA: simulpost! I think we are on the same page! I would maybe have used scare quotes around "terrorist" so people know that's not your label. Agree about the other so-called terrorists in Guantanamo and other sites, and that it really is germane to this whole conversation.


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 Post subject: Re: Explosions at Boston Marathon finish line
PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 10:09 pm 
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Imogen wrote:
Ariann wrote:
Just read the link above. Dunno what to think about that. We certainly don't need Americans being treated like we now treat foreign suspects of terror on American soil.


I would say that we certainly don't need any human beings being treated like the USA now treats foreign suspects of terror on American soil.


That was sort of my point, perhaps made too drily.


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 Post subject: Re: Explosions at Boston Marathon finish line
PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 11:17 pm 
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Its kind of scary that the GOP and others are getting ready to exploit this.
http://socialistworker.org/2013/04/22/u ... our-rights

Quote:
Republicans led the baying for blood, of course. New York Rep. Steve King called for a new McCarthyism, telling the National Review that police must "realize that the threat is coming from the Muslim community and increase surveillance there." New York state Sen. Greg Ball advocated torturing Dzhokar Tsarnaev, writing, "Who wouldn't use torture on this punk to save more lives?"

Republican Sens. Lindsey Graham of South Carolina, Kelly Ayotte of New Hampshire and John McCain of Arizona called for Dzhokhar Tsarnaev to be designated an "enemy combatant"--so that, as Graham told the New York Times, authorities could "question him for a lengthy period without a lawyer and outside the criminal justice system."

But the Republicans needn't have worried. Tsarnaev is already being questioned "without a lawyer," and it's unknown when he'll get one--because the Obama administration invoked a legal provision allowing for the government, in cases of a vaguely defined "ongoing threat to public safety," to not inform suspects of their rights to remain silent and consult an attorney under the Supreme Court's Miranda decision.

No one actually claims there is an "ongoing threat to public safety." Massachusetts Gov. Deval Patrick told NBC News, "There isn't any basis for concern about another imminent threat." But few in the political establishment raised any objection to the Obama administration's decision.

Democratic Sen. Charles Schumer of New York may have sounded moderated compared to Lindsey Graham, but he came down just as squarely on the side of violating civil liberties.

In the days to come, more politicians will jump on the bandwagon, calling for more restrictions on our civil liberties to make us "safer." But squashing Miranda rights and other rights won't "save more lives." Repression only creates the conditions for bitterness and despair to thrive--at home and around the globe--and sometimes be expressed in awful spasms of anger.

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 Post subject: Re: Explosions at Boston Marathon finish line
PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 6:55 am 
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http://www.spiked-online.com/site/article/13560/

This article kind of sums up a lot of what I'm thinking about the events Friday and since- when I first woke up Friday morning and saw what was going on, my first thought was that the lockdown was a bit of an exaggerated response. I can't help but feel that it has to do with government wanting us to feel more afraid than we should be, so that we remain in this cycle of fear/gratitude when the perpetrators were caught.

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 Post subject: Re: Explosions at Boston Marathon finish line
PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 8:15 am 
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they had that Senator Ball from NY on Piers Morgan last night which we were watching because it had some random coverage of the bombings and my husband said that they were gonna have a senator on that said we should torture Dzhokar in the name of public safety and i got up and left the room and almost vomited.

i dont want to be part of the same species that would think torture under any circumstance is like an ok thing.
im embarassed to be an American when people say shiitake like that and i want to move to some other country where dickheads like that dont live (i guess they live everywhere though)

from what i understand it sounds like Dzhokar is fully cooperating with the police/investigators/FBI and answering all their questions. he's alraedy given them a lot of info.
whether he's lying or not i dont know but im sure a bunch of highly trained experts have a close eye on him.

torture at this point really would just be for "fun" for this fork heads who think that is ok.

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 Post subject: Re: Explosions at Boston Marathon finish line
PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 8:22 am 
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(eta: in response to the link Quarantined posted): I don't know, while I certainly think it's important to examine the response for (dog forbid) any future incidents, I think it was just a really extraordinary situation. I mean the suspects were on the loose all week, and the city wasn't shut down in that time, just after the Friday morning chaos. I'm not sure why it was expanded to all of Boston, and maybe that was too much, but friends I know who were affected were posting on fb almost with pride. There was something going around like- "Boston is the only city that if you fork with them, they will stop everything and find you". And while it was certainly a scary situation to wake up to, I can't imagine it would have been less scary for people of Watertown to hear, "He's in your town and armed, maybe with bombs, now off to work with you!"

Days later we are getting a better picture of who these guys were, but as of Thursday night, with all the emotion and uncertainty (and explosives and cop killing), I think they had to make a quick decision and were doing the best they could. Maybe I'm being defensive or naive, I just can't see it as having been a government attempt at anything except catching him and keeping civilians out of shootouts. I'm sure there will be a LOT of discussion in law enforcement about what happened, its effects, and what to do in the future.


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 Post subject: Re: Explosions at Boston Marathon finish line
PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 9:07 am 
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Tofulish wrote:
Its kind of scary that the GOP and others are getting ready to exploit this.
http://socialistworker.org/2013/04/22/u ... our-rights

Quote:
Republicans led the baying for blood, of course. New York Rep. Steve King called for a new McCarthyism, telling the National Review that police must "realize that the threat is coming from the Muslim community and increase surveillance there." New York state Sen. Greg Ball advocated torturing Dzhokar Tsarnaev, writing, "Who wouldn't use torture on this punk to save more lives?"

Republican Sens. Lindsey Graham of South Carolina, Kelly Ayotte of New Hampshire and John McCain of Arizona called for Dzhokhar Tsarnaev to be designated an "enemy combatant"--so that, as Graham told the New York Times, authorities could "question him for a lengthy period without a lawyer and outside the criminal justice system."

But the Republicans needn't have worried. Tsarnaev is already being questioned "without a lawyer," and it's unknown when he'll get one--because the Obama administration invoked a legal provision allowing for the government, in cases of a vaguely defined "ongoing threat to public safety," to not inform suspects of their rights to remain silent and consult an attorney under the Supreme Court's Miranda decision.

No one actually claims there is an "ongoing threat to public safety." Massachusetts Gov. Deval Patrick told NBC News, "There isn't any basis for concern about another imminent threat." But few in the political establishment raised any objection to the Obama administration's decision.

Democratic Sen. Charles Schumer of New York may have sounded moderated compared to Lindsey Graham, but he came down just as squarely on the side of violating civil liberties.

In the days to come, more politicians will jump on the bandwagon, calling for more restrictions on our civil liberties to make us "safer." But squashing Miranda rights and other rights won't "save more lives." Repression only creates the conditions for bitterness and despair to thrive--at home and around the globe--and sometimes be expressed in awful spasms of anger.
But the mentally ill conspiracy theorist next door with the AK-47 poses no threat at all!

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 Post subject: Re: Explosions at Boston Marathon finish line
PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 9:15 am 
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Amy wrote:
but friends I know who were affected were posting on fb almost with pride. There was something going around like- "Boston is the only city that if you fork with them, they will stop everything and find you".

see, that's what I find weird, to me it's not badass to totally stop everything to deal with it, it seems more wimpy to me or something (in the context of that quote, I mean). I don't really understand that response people were having that "We're so badass if you fork with us we'll shut down the city". I mean the average person just had to sit home, there's nothing tough about that.

I'm not saying I think that having people in Watertown on lockdown didn't make sense though, just that the whole city was that I found a bit strange. And total respect to people in that area who woke up to gunfire and explosions, and had to sit there all day, that must have been awful.

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 Post subject: Re: Explosions at Boston Marathon finish line
PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:35 am 
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oh Lard. so much conspiracy stuff on FB. some of which makes sense though i could have done without the IMGUR thing wiht pix of the dead body of suspect 1 (consider yourself warned).

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 Post subject: Re: Explosions at Boston Marathon finish line
PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:43 am 
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Amy wrote:
but friends I know who were affected were posting on fb almost with pride. There was something going around like - "Boston is the only city that if you fork with them, they will stop everything and find you".
Yeah, this kind of reductive, facile bullshiitake makes me nuts. I'm just going to go out on a limb here and bet that the citizens of any community would do pretty much the same thing, since I doubt the residents of Cincinnatti, or Boca Raton, or Scranton, or Spokane, or anywhere at all are more inclined to get shot or blown up than the average Red Sox fan. So if there was a heavily armed, dangerous person at large and the authorities told people to stay inside, I imagine they would probably do so. Simply following directions (even in a time of crisis) doesn't equal "heroism."

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 Post subject: Re: Explosions at Boston Marathon finish line
PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:43 am 
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Quarantined wrote:
I don't really understand that response people were having that "We're so badass if you fork with us we'll shut down the city". I mean the average person just had to sit home, there's nothing tough about that.

True, but there's nothing cowardly about it either. They were just doing what they were told. I think it was more a spirit of cooperation and determination to put an end to this. I do agree that maybe it should have just been kept to Watertown, but it's so easy to say that now. At the time there was just so much they didn't know.

eta: And I don't think the people posting it were including themselves in any kind of heroism/bravery. Like I said I think it was more in the spirit of cooperating with law enforcement.


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 Post subject: Re: Explosions at Boston Marathon finish line
PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:47 am 
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Amy wrote:
Quarantined wrote:
I don't really understand that response people were having that "We're so badass if you fork with us we'll shut down the city". I mean the average person just had to sit home, there's nothing tough about that.

True, but there's nothing cowardly about it either. They were just doing what they were told. I think it was more a spirit of cooperation and determination to put an end to this. I do agree that maybe it should have just been kept to Watertown, but it's so much easier to say that now. At the time there was just so much they didn't know.

oh yeah, apologies if it came across as if I'm saying people were cowardly, not at all. More the overall response of shutting things down I don't find particularly tough, as a policy- not on an individual level.

I guess I'm just disturbed by how we react, as a nation, to these types of events. I find myself getting caught up in it too and then I just want to step back and take a deep breath.

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 Post subject: Re: Explosions at Boston Marathon finish line
PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:50 am 
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No apologies needed; I do think it's important to look at the response and its effects! I'm just saying it was unprecedented, so it's hard to compare to other cities or other events. We can only learn from this moving forward.


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 Post subject: Re: Explosions at Boston Marathon finish line
PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:51 am 
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I thought it was kind of weird that they had the lockdown in Boston, as well, but they only extended it there once they fessed up to not having a clue where he was anymore. I can understand the lockdown. At the time it was known that they were the Boston Marathon bombers, they had killed a MIT officer, shot and wounded a MBTA officer, carjacked someone, went on a high speed chase, shot at police with some heavy duty firearms and were throwing explosives out of their windows. I think they just didn't want anyone else to get hurt in the process of finding them and I think it's awesome that no one else did get hurt or killed in the process. That's why when his status changed to missing, I just don't think they wanted anyone else hurt and that's why they extended it to the rest of the city.

eta: That being said- not being able to leave where you are, having SWAT teams and whatnot enter your house and search your yards, not knowing exactly what is going on, having the media overdramatize things and GROSSLY spread misinformation and having the military driving down your roads definitely does something to you psychologically and that is important for the future.

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 Post subject: Re: Explosions at Boston Marathon finish line
PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 1:11 pm 
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yeah, I mean I hope that law enforcement and other government organizations will think about this and learn from it. that would be the best possible outcome. I'm just suspicious that they are happy enough to leave it at the fact that everyone was all rah-rah after and cheering everything on. I always think, how much am I willing to accept of interference in my normal life in order to feel safe? For me, personally, feeling safe doesn't really justify a lot of regulation or invasion of privacy and limited movement, but I know that not everyone agrees with that, especially when there is a frightening situation at hand.

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 Post subject: Re: Explosions at Boston Marathon finish line
PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 1:19 pm 
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Also kinda OT but it reminded me too, how this year the T closed down twice all day for snow storms. Maybe public policy, at least in Boston, is tending towards the overly cautious in general.

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 Post subject: Re: Explosions at Boston Marathon finish line
PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 1:32 pm 
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case in point:

http://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/ ... medium=RSS

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 Post subject: Re: Explosions at Boston Marathon finish line
PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:04 am 
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The Tsarnaev's car jacking victim talks about how he was carjacked, robbed but finally managed to escape.
http://www.boston.com/metrodesk/2013/04 ... story.html

Quote:
In an exclusive interview with the Globe on Thursday, Danny -- the victim of the Tsarnaev brothers’ much-discussed but previously little-understood carjacking -- filled in some of the last missing pieces in the timeline between the murder of MIT police officer Sean Collier, just before 10:30 p.m. on April 18, and the Watertown shootout that ended just before 1 a.m. Danny asked that he be identified only by his American nickname.

The story of that night unfolds like a Tarantino movie, bursts of harrowing action laced with dark humor and dialogue absurd for its ordinariness, reminders of just how young the men in the car were. Girls, credit limits for students, the marvels of the Mercedes ML 350 and the iPhone 5, whether anyone still listens to CDs -- all were discussed by the two 26-year-olds and the 19-year-old driving around on a Thursday night.

Danny described 90 harrowing minutes, first with the younger brother following in a second car, then with both brothers in the Mercedes, where they openly discussed driving to New York, though Danny could not make out if they were planning another attack. Throughout the ordeal, he did as they asked while silently analyzing every threatened command, every overheard snatch of dialogue for clues about where and when they might kill him.


His escape and testimony to the FBI and police is what led to the suspects being captured in Watertown and not heading to New York and either escaping or continuing their spree.

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 Post subject: Re: Explosions at Boston Marathon finish line
PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:10 am 
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I can not believe that guy had the guts to make a break for it. I would've been shaking so badly I doubt I could have unbuckled the seatbelt! I'm so glad he's ok.

Here's another account of the shootout that followed: http://t.co/51yrQyOUlP

There have been so many inconsistencies- Tamerlan was wearing an explosive device, except no he wasn't. Dzhokhar was shooting from the boat, but no actually he was unarmed. Or is that just hearsay too? It's all such a mess.

They also reported that Dzhokhar was transferred overnight from Beth Israel to Ft. Devens.


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 Post subject: Re: Explosions at Boston Marathon finish line
PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 9:11 pm 
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Someone made a Boston Marathon bombing game. fork them. fork them so much.

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