| Register  | FAQ  | Search | Login 
It is currently Tue Jul 22, 2014 4:49 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 143 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Feeling empathy for "monsters"
PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 11:33 pm 
Offline
Because Bob Barker Told Me To
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2010 1:27 pm
Posts: 918
Location: Albany, NY
I've been reeling today from the pursuit and capture of the remaining suspect in the Boston Marathon bombings. If he is indeed responsible, then what he did is obviously horrific and terrible. At the same time, I am feeling to much sadness and empathy for him-- I just can't stop thinking about hot how brother DIED this morning how sad, lonely, and terrified he must be feeling. And because I am feeling these things for someone who is suspected of doing something so SO awful, I am also riddled with guilt about it all.

I started a Facebook thread about this and there was some good discussion there about empathy (when it's appropriate to have it, etc.) and thought it would be interesting to bring here too, because several people have expressed sadness about him in the bombing-specific thread.

To clarify, though, my intentions are not at all to detract from the event, the tender city of Boston, or the many many many people who are hurting or dead from all of this. My sadness and empathy are there too.

Just trying to make sense of all this. xo

_________________
Departure & Arrival: Photoblog
Navigator, Equator: Personal blog
My freelance writing website
Dear Nora: My cat's advice column (really)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Feeling empathy for "monsters"
PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 11:49 pm 
Offline
Dr Bronners, MD
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2010 5:58 pm
Posts: 4690
Location: Santa Cruz whoop whoop
If he didn't want to lose everything he cared about, he probably shouldn't have murdered and maimed hundreds of people.

_________________
"Trolling an internet message board, The Greatest Activism Of All." - pandacookie
Вы такие сексапильные, когда злитесь


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Feeling empathy for "monsters"
PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 11:52 pm 
Offline
Level 7 Vegan
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2010 1:15 am
Posts: 1529
I was about to complain on Facebook about how angry this kind of thinking makes me, to be honest. Who gives a shiitake if his brother died? He deserved it! My sympathies are for the innocent people who were hurt.

_________________
"One time I meant to send a potential employer a resume, but I accidentally sent them a bucket of puke!

So embarrassing!" -just mumbles


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Feeling empathy for "monsters"
PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 11:58 pm 
Offline
Because Bob Barker Told Me To
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2010 1:27 pm
Posts: 918
Location: Albany, NY
I just think it's possible to feel empathy for EVERYONE. Feeling empathy for him doesn't take away from empathy I have for the victims.

_________________
Departure & Arrival: Photoblog
Navigator, Equator: Personal blog
My freelance writing website
Dear Nora: My cat's advice column (really)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Feeling empathy for "monsters"
PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 12:00 am 
Offline
Drinks Wild Tofurkey
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2010 12:16 am
Posts: 2670
Location: SF Bay area
I feel for everyone involved. I think that's ok. It's hard to wrap my brain around the fact that a person could be capable of doing something so horrible and because of that removal I can feel sad for them. Also that they were/are so young plays into it. It doesn't mean I don't think they're awful, that I'm not outraged and disgusted, or that I don't care about the victims.

_________________
http://hotveganchickpeas.wordpress.com (food blog)
http://baybalcony.wordpress.com (gardening blog)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Feeling empathy for "monsters"
PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 12:05 am 
Offline
Dr Bronners, MD
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2010 5:58 pm
Posts: 4690
Location: Santa Cruz whoop whoop
takecare wrote:
I just think it's possible to feel empathy for EVERYONE. Feeling empathy for him doesn't take away from empathy I have for the victims.


Sure, you can, but consider that there was a point where he could have said no. Probably lots of points. At none of those points did he stop. People who cause mass mayhem seldom go on to live happy lives. We may never know exactly what led him to make the decisions he made, but in the end, he is one of two (or potentially more) people who decided that the best thing they could do that day was explode some bombs in the middle of a crowd. There are lots of people who have terrible childhoods or awful families or whatever that don't attempt to murder hundreds of people.

_________________
"Trolling an internet message board, The Greatest Activism Of All." - pandacookie
Вы такие сексапильные, когда злитесь


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Feeling empathy for "monsters"
PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 12:20 am 
Offline
Making Threats to Punks Again
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2010 12:10 am
Posts: 1102
Location: Melbourne, Australia
takecare wrote:
I just think it's possible to feel empathy for EVERYONE. Feeling empathy for him doesn't take away from empathy I have for the victims.

I'm with you on this one. Feelings don't have to be black and white or simple.

_________________
'forking. bogan as forking fork' - Joshua
'I can puke and be naked anywhere I want' - Fee


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Feeling empathy for "monsters"
PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 12:20 am 
Offline
Because Bob Barker Told Me To
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2010 1:27 pm
Posts: 918
Location: Albany, NY
solipsistnation wrote:
takecare wrote:
I just think it's possible to feel empathy for EVERYONE. Feeling empathy for him doesn't take away from empathy I have for the victims.


Sure, you can, but consider that there was a point where he could have said no. Probably lots of points. At none of those points did he stop.

Totally. I totally get that. I think what I'm struggling with is the difference between sympathy and empathy. I'm not sympathetic towards him. If he did indeed do what he is suspected of doing, I want justice to be served. What happened is terrible, terrible, terrible.

But my empathy towards him makes me see this as a very grayscale story. I don't think that his history, childhood, or whatever made him do what he did can be just shrugged off as "There are lots of people who have terrible childhoods or awful families or whatever that don't attempt to murder hundreds of people".

It's just not that simple. We're human. Things effect us. And that counts for something.

_________________
Departure & Arrival: Photoblog
Navigator, Equator: Personal blog
My freelance writing website
Dear Nora: My cat's advice column (really)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Feeling empathy for "monsters"
PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 12:28 am 
Offline
Level 7 Vegan
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2010 1:15 am
Posts: 1529
So what childhood event makes someone want to be a terrorist, exactly?

_________________
"One time I meant to send a potential employer a resume, but I accidentally sent them a bucket of puke!

So embarrassing!" -just mumbles


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Feeling empathy for "monsters"
PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 12:30 am 
Offline
Because Bob Barker Told Me To
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2010 1:27 pm
Posts: 918
Location: Albany, NY
Jigglypuff wrote:
So what childhood event makes someone want to be a terrorist, exactly?

Since he was only captured a few hours ago and is in serious condition, we don't know that yet (and maybe never will). But I think being open to learning about him and what made him do something so extreme is very very important.

How else will things change in the future?

_________________
Departure & Arrival: Photoblog
Navigator, Equator: Personal blog
My freelance writing website
Dear Nora: My cat's advice column (really)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Feeling empathy for "monsters"
PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 12:37 am 
Offline
Level 7 Vegan
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2010 2:26 pm
Posts: 1526
Location: santa cruz!
Takecare, I totally agree. This morning I was hearing a news report about what a "sweet" kid he was, and how all his friends from high school thought he was just really great and kind... And the first thought I had was "People are so complicated."

I do feel a tremendous amount of empathy for him, and - like you said - for pretty much every single person affected: victims, friends of victims, family of cops, citizens who were scared, his family, and so on. I don't personally think it is every wrong or harmful to feel empathy. It can only help us to preserve our humanity.

Also, I do think part of why i was especially inclined to feel empathy for him today is that all eyes were on him (and only him). So, we knew he was on the run, we knew his brother was killed, we knew he was hiding in a boat...and meanwhile these fresh faced pictured were released and the whole thing was just so weird and hard to reconcile. I think if we'd had blow-by-blow accounts of the horror and fear and families and dramas of every person affected when the bomb blasts AT&T he marathon occurred, it would have been totally overwhelming.

_________________
Vegan Eats & Treats


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Feeling empathy for "monsters"
PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 1:04 am 
Offline
Double double, toil and trouble
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2010 9:24 pm
Posts: 317
Location: Boulder, CO
I just posted about this on FB in response to people who are decrying the authorities for not abusing or murdering Dzhokhar Tsarnaev at their first opportunity rather than taking him to the hospital for treatment. My two cents: Empathy and outrage aren't mutually exclusive, and it is entirely possible to feel for the victims of this fiasco while also being sad that someone would feel driven to commit such a horrific act. Anger seems to so easily undermine empathy, yet without the latter I see little possibility of ever moving toward a nuanced understanding of this or any other seemingly unprecedented act of violence. We label individuals who commit acts like these "monsters" as a means of erasing their humanity so that we don't have to confront the reality that in many instances the so-called "monstrous" feelings and behaviors at hand are reflective of broader cultural ills. How many more mass killings will the US have to witness before it acknowledges that merely labeling people who commit these kinds of acts cold-blooded psychopaths and locking them up or putting them to death is an ineffective means of comprehending and addressing the conditions (psychological and cultural) that motivate individuals to enact violence?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Feeling empathy for "monsters"
PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 1:14 am 
Offline
Because Bob Barker Told Me To
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2010 1:27 pm
Posts: 918
Location: Albany, NY
chop_socky wrote:
I just posted about this on FB in response to people who are decrying the authorities for not abusing or murdering Dzhokhar Tsarnaev at their first opportunity rather than taking him to the hospital for treatment. My two cents: Empathy and outrage aren't mutually exclusive, and it is entirely possible to feel for the victims of this fiasco while also being sad that someone would feel driven to commit such a horrific act. Anger seems to so easily undermine empathy, yet without the latter I see little possibility of ever moving toward a nuanced understanding of this or any other seemingly unprecedented act of violence. We label individuals who commit acts like these "monsters" as a means of erasing their humanity so that we don't have to confront the reality that in many instances the so-called "monstrous" feelings and behaviors at hand are reflective of broader cultural ills. How many more mass killings will the US have to witness before it acknowledges that merely labeling people who commit these kinds of acts cold-blooded psychopaths and locking them up or putting them to death is an ineffective means of comprehending and addressing the conditions (psychological and cultural) that motivate individuals to enact violence?

EXACTLY.

_________________
Departure & Arrival: Photoblog
Navigator, Equator: Personal blog
My freelance writing website
Dear Nora: My cat's advice column (really)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Feeling empathy for "monsters"
PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 1:39 am 
Offline
Dr Bronners, MD
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2010 5:58 pm
Posts: 4690
Location: Santa Cruz whoop whoop
I expect we're going to be inundated with analysis of his childhood, his situation, his motives, his family history, the history of Chechnya and Kyrgyzstan (which is cool since most people in the US I suspect don't know where they are or why Chechnya and the USSR have such bad blood between them-- I mean, if the Czech ambassador has to issue a press release pointing out that the Czech Republic and Chechnya aren't the same thing, well. Go America, I guess.), and so on and so forth, forever.

We, as people out in the world, will never know why he did what he did. We might have some idea, and we might get close, but this is some we will never and CAN never understand. We can poke at it all we want, but at best we will approximate some comprehension of his motives and we can perhaps fool ourselves into believing that what we think is true is really true, but in the end, we're experiencing an illusion of truth.

As a reminder, cold-blooded psychopaths do exist, and not everybody has a sad history or some societal excuse to explain their actions. H.H. Holmes was not unique, and lots of people thought he was sweet and trustworthy too, even as he lured in and murdered dozens or hundreds of women in a building he more or less purpose-built as a human slaughterhouse. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H._H._Holmes ).

_________________
"Trolling an internet message board, The Greatest Activism Of All." - pandacookie
Вы такие сексапильные, когда злитесь


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Feeling empathy for "monsters"
PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 1:41 am 
Offline
Dr Bronners, MD
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2010 5:58 pm
Posts: 4690
Location: Santa Cruz whoop whoop
Oh, and this kid? I'm glad they caught him and didn't kill him. I hope we learn a lot from him. Not just the obvious spy-movie "Who were you working for?" stuff, but the deeper things too.

But he still could have at some point decided to change, and did not.

_________________
"Trolling an internet message board, The Greatest Activism Of All." - pandacookie
Вы такие сексапильные, когда злитесь


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Feeling empathy for "monsters"
PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 1:47 am 
Offline
Impressive boner
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2010 2:57 pm
Posts: 3984
Location: Nottingham.
I feel sad for everyone involved.

I can't get over that he's referred to as a suspect but everyone is talking about it like they're 100% certain he did it. I don't understand how someone can be reasonably be labeled as a 'monster' without the necessary evidence, and even then (as chop_socky said) the label dehumanizes them and works to stop us from being able to identify with them as a person.

If he was partially responsible we need to understand why so that things can change in order to prevent events like this happening in the future.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Feeling empathy for "monsters"
PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 2:49 am 
Offline
Discovered unobtainium
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 9:21 pm
Posts: 11810
Location: Dinosaur Stampede
Everyone is a suspect until tried and convicted.

All this sounds great in theory, but not much has ever pissed me off as much as having to see a memorial for Cho among those for his victims. Honestly, I hate the whole VT drill field memorial for that reason. Maybe there is a time and a place to mourn his tragic life, but it sure as fork isn't there, with the people he killed. And there is a time and place for forgiveness, but I really don't think that's the way to represent it, though I understand some of the families (but not all) supported the idea.

I too wonder what motivated a seemingly good kid to do all this, but he made his choices. We need to treat all people properly, decently, and humanely, and slapping labels on doesn't help, but I'm not going to lose a lot of sleep over guys who set a bomb right behind a little 8 your old boy. There are released photos showing one of them setting the bomb there, with that little boy, in the last photo his parents will ever have of him, standing at the rail.

_________________
"This is the creepiest post ever if you don't know who Molly is." -Fee
"a vegan death match sounds like something where we all end up hugging." -LisaPunk


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Feeling empathy for "monsters"
PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 5:53 am 
Offline
The Real Hamburger Helper
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2011 8:03 pm
Posts: 2211
Location: I can't believe it's not England!
I feel like Takecare and chopsocky have already expressed how I feel. I spent all of yesterday at work and then a nervous drive home and even when we were given the all clear, I was a little nervous because my imagination had him coming down to the part of Boston I live in. Even then, though, while I have no sympathy and I know he dug his own hole and now, lucky him, he gets to sit in it, I could still empathize that he must be feeling the terror, grief and maelstrom of emotions that come along with being chased by a shiitake ton of police officers. Sucky emotions to be had, even if you bring them on yourself (which I freely understand and see that he definitely did). Honestly, I don't need to know the exact reasons that caused him to do this. I'm grateful that the police caught him alive so that the courts can try him and that they were able to do that even though this 19 year old kid had caused the entirety of Boston to come to a screeching halt and caused the death of a police officer and wounded another.

I'm completely ok with everyone who doesn't empathize with him. He did a lot of shitty things. (Shitty doesn't even begin to cover it, if he did in fact, orchestrate the bombings. He is, in fact, still just a suspect.)

_________________
"Vegan to me means Oreos for breakfast." -Poopiebitch
"tl;dr: I quit working to drink beer paid for with gift cards" erikasoyf*cker


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Feeling empathy for "monsters"
PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 6:41 am 
Offline
Inflexitarian
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2010 7:31 am
Posts: 743
I feel some pangs of sympathy for him too... then I wonder how that's any different from the CNN dbags expressing sympathy for the ruined lives of the Steubenville rapists, and I feel like a jerk.

_________________
Obligatory blog.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Feeling empathy for "monsters"
PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 8:10 am 
Offline
I Wanna Dip My Balls In It
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2010 10:37 pm
Posts: 3311
Location: idontevenknowanymore
solipsistnation wrote:
People who cause mass mayhem seldom go on to live happy lives.

it's for that exact reason I have empathy for this bloke. it'd be lovely if we could all be happy, and I'm incredibly grateful that (for the most) I am.

_________________
reap/sow, risk/reward


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Feeling empathy for "monsters"
PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 8:20 am 
Offline
Bought a used copy of Natural Harvest
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 6:29 pm
Posts: 6030
Location: Land of Maple and Beavers
I feel you, takecare. Feelings are complicated and it's easy to feel empathy and also want the person to go to jail forever. But I can't help but feel empathy, in the same way I felt empathy for GWBush.

_________________
Did you notice the slight feeling of panic at the words "Chicken Basin Street"? Like someone was walking over your grave? Try not to remember. We must never remember. - mumbles
Is this about devilberries and nazifruit again? - footface


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Feeling empathy for "monsters"
PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 8:31 am 
Offline
Had sex with a vampire that sparkles.
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 6:24 pm
Posts: 5360
Location: BRLA
I agree with PP, you can know someone made the wrong choices, that they have to face consequences for those choices, and still feel empathy. The people that feel that aren't arguing to have him released to live a normal life and don't need to be talked out of their feelings any moreso than the people that are feeling nothing but rage toward him. Both pretty valid.

_________________
The thing about this thread is, it's dumb. - IJDI


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Feeling empathy for "monsters"
PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 8:32 am 
Offline
Flounceiad 2011
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 8:26 pm
Posts: 5217
Location: A New England
takecare wrote:
chop_socky wrote:
I just posted about this on FB in response to people who are decrying the authorities for not abusing or murdering Dzhokhar Tsarnaev at their first opportunity rather than taking him to the hospital for treatment. My two cents: Empathy and outrage aren't mutually exclusive, and it is entirely possible to feel for the victims of this fiasco while also being sad that someone would feel driven to commit such a horrific act. Anger seems to so easily undermine empathy, yet without the latter I see little possibility of ever moving toward a nuanced understanding of this or any other seemingly unprecedented act of violence. We label individuals who commit acts like these "monsters" as a means of erasing their humanity so that we don't have to confront the reality that in many instances the so-called "monstrous" feelings and behaviors at hand are reflective of broader cultural ills. How many more mass killings will the US have to witness before it acknowledges that merely labeling people who commit these kinds of acts cold-blooded psychopaths and locking them up or putting them to death is an ineffective means of comprehending and addressing the conditions (psychological and cultural) that motivate individuals to enact violence?

EXACTLY.
Yes. It's called "humanity," and it is (or should be) vast, and contains multitudes.

_________________
Nothing is safe from weiners in my neighborhood... ~ crowderpea
I didn't embarrass him by saying anything about wanking ~ 8ball
"SMLOUNCE!" ~ smurfterrobang?!
http://elizaveganpage.blogspot.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Feeling empathy for "monsters"
PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 8:34 am 
Offline
Invented Vegan Meringue
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2012 2:55 pm
Posts: 3679
Location: The land of maple syrup and beavers.
I totally understand feeling empathy for this guy. It's not just about making that choice to do horrible things, but getting to the point where doing those horrible things seems like the best decision for your life at the time.

This is different from feeling empathy for the Steubenville rapists, because they are so strongly supported by rape culture. Yes it sucks that what they've done will have an impact on their lives but it's minor in comparison and it's very likely that they'll end up being perfectly fine in the long run. They didn't go into it thinking they would have to do any time or that there'd be any punishment for them at all.

This bomber kid? Not so much. The fact that he chose to do this knowing he would either be caught and jailed forever or maybe even die? That's a very different life choice and really makes me wonder how he got to that headspace.

Even more though, I feel bad for his family and what they'll be put through. I feel bad for all the little Chechen kids on playgrounds right now who are going to be ostracized by their friends after mommy and daddy teaches them that "those people" can't be trusted. And obviously all the victims of the attacks.

I just really hope the police can find out why they were doing this. I'm curious to know if my friend's guess that they were eventually trying to access MIT's nuclear reactor is correct.

_________________
Anyone for some German Shepherd Pie? - daisychain
Well! Fruit is stupid! These onions taste nothing like fruit! - allularpunk
Dwarf-tossing for God: A Story of Hope - Invictus


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Feeling empathy for "monsters"
PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 8:34 am 
Offline
Semen Strong
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 7:10 pm
Posts: 18722
Location: Cliffbar NJ
paprikapapaya wrote:
I felt empathy for GWBush.


I can't feel empathy for GWB. What would you have empathy for - him being born into privilege and power and doing nothing useful for the rest of society?

Millions of people died, were displaced, injured, lost loved ones, had their homes destroyed, are still being tortured in Guantanamo with no hope of release or a fair trial, and he presided over 8 years of slashing cuts to needed infrastructure to ensure that millionaires and corporations had to pay less than their fair share and weren't subject to regulation. He retired happy and healthy, and while his painting may be shiitake, he has a far better life than most people in this county. He will never want for medical care and he is also the only President who isn't using his time after office to do anything meaningful besides paint shitty paintings. He was a child of privilege, who with no respect or regard for anyone lived his life like a giant toddler.

This reminds me of the discussion in the Margaret Thatcher thread.

I feel like I can have a momentary flash of empathy for them, if I take away all other context. Like perhaps someone could for Anders Behring Breivik. But then I think of the terror on the faces of his victims and that empathy is overwhelmed by anger for what he has done.

There are so many victims in Boston, like the 11 year old who is still undergoing multiple surgeries in critical condition. Its hard not to focus on them. http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2013/0 ... n-bombing/

_________________
But on a cold winter night, when the wind whispers through the trees and a bright, white moon hangs heavy in the air, you might hear a sad cry like someone thinking he knows what's best for you, and that'll be the white man a-passin' you by. just mumbles


Last edited by Tofulish on Sat Apr 20, 2013 8:44 am, edited 2 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 143 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
Template made by DEVPPL/ThatBigForum and fancied up by What Cheer