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 Post subject: Global LGBT(TIQQ2SA...) Rights Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 9:15 am 
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I don't know of a catchall thread for this.. but as we celebrate a shifting public opinion and rights victories in the US, it's not going so well everywhere...


http://americablog.com/2013/07/russia-o ... putin.html

Russian President Vladimir Putin signed into law yesterday one of the most draconian anti-gay laws on the planet.

The new law, coming only seven months before Russia is to host the Winter Olympics in Sochi, would ban anything considered pro-gay, from gay-affirmative speech, to gays holding hands in public, to even wearing rainbow suspenders.

The law also contains a provision permitting the government to arrest and detain gay, or pro-gay, foreigners for up to 14 days before they would then be expelled from the country. That provision ought to send chills to anyone gay, lesbians, bisexual or transgender who is planning to attend or participate in the Winter Olympics.

It is now literally illegal in Russia to say that you are gay. It is illegal to kiss your partner in public – say, after you win a gold medal. It is illegal for a gay athlete to wear the rainbow flag. Or even to acknowledge during an interview that they are gay – or for the foreign press to acknowledge it – unless they mention that gay sexual orientation in a negative way.

...



The whole article is well worth reading - as it points out, Russia is hosting the 2014 Olympics, which is both terrifying for athletes and teams and an opportunity to draw global attention to the issue.


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 Post subject: Re: Global LGBT(TIQQ2SA...) Rights Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 11:37 am 
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This petition showed up in my facebook feed: http://act.watchdog.net/petitions/3322? ... m8E8NOAgfA

According to the petition, since May 30th, Greece has been arresting and detaining indefinitely trans people (as well as recent migrants, drug users and sex workers). Had you guys heard about this?? I am completely flabbergasted that I hadn't. I could find quite a few mentions of this in independent media and blogs, nothing in major news outlets. A EU state is carrying a systematic, institutionalized detention of quote-unquote "undesirables" - how is this not major news?


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 Post subject: Re: Global LGBT(TIQQ2SA...) Rights Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 12:07 pm 
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Thanks for sharing annak! I had no idea - how horrifying. Wonder what this will mean in the light of Hilary Clinton's comment about gay rights being human rights? I do wish the US would boycott the Olympics over this.

Clinton wrote:
The Obama Administration defends the human rights of LGBT people as part of our comprehensive human rights policy and as a priority of our foreign policy. In our embassies, our diplomats are raising concerns about specific cases and laws, and working with a range of partners to strengthen human rights protections for all.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/12/0 ... 32392.html

Its so awful, its like Russia is trying to get back Super-Bond-Villian status

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 Post subject: Re: Global LGBT(TIQQ2SA...) Rights Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 1:17 pm 
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aelle wrote:
This petition showed up in my facebook feed: http://act.watchdog.net/petitions/3322? ... m8E8NOAgfA

According to the petition, since May 30th, Greece has been arresting and detaining indefinitely trans people (as well as recent migrants, drug users and sex workers). Had you guys heard about this?? I am completely flabbergasted that I hadn't. I could find quite a few mentions of this in independent media and blogs, nothing in major news outlets. A EU state is carrying a systematic, institutionalized detention of quote-unquote "undesirables" - how is this not major news?



Huh, interesting. I haven't heard about this, though at least with the immigrant detention centers it sounds pretty standard for Europe (there was a big scandal when I lived in A'dam and one of the shoddily-constructed prisons near Schiphol burned down and the integration minister, Rita Verdonk, did not take much personal responsibility or step down).

I was able to find this (I know! Fox news!):
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/04/10 ... on-center/

This was the only article I could find mentioning trans people and Greece in a more mainstream outlet:
http://www.dw.de/eu-speeds-up-asylum-pr ... a-16874828

Which does not confirm or deny it either way but makes me wonder whether there's some spin going on and the trans people and sex workers are undocumented immigrants who are arrested and then detained pending a slow asylum request? Not that the system isn't appalling, but it would be less surprising.. I'm under the impression that laws forcing people to carry ID with them at all times are pretty standard, and tend to be selectively enforced against minority/targeted groups.

Here's an article that makes more measured claims:
http://chicago.gopride.com/news/article ... 03B8O81620

which frames it more as police harassment. And does confirm that it's ID-related. I hope the EU is able to intervene and demand respect for human rights.

Here's the original claim from the Greek transgender organization (http://www.transgender-association.gr ):
Quote:
Athens, June 18, 2013

JOINT PUBLIC STATEMENT OF GREEK
LGBT ORGANIZATIONS

Subject: “Arbitrary arrests of transgender people and unlawful detention of the
defender of their rights – a lawyer.”

The signatory organizations that support the rights of lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people, with this public statement are expressing their deep concern for the recent events in Thessaloniki, as documented in press releases of the Greek Transgender Support Association and the Hellenic Action for Human Rights – “Pleiades”, and are teaming against transphobic massive and arbitary arrests of transgender people and the targeting of human rights defenders by the police in Thessaloniki, just before the Thessaloniki Pride.

We condemn unequivocally:

- systematic arbitrary arrests of transgender people by the Police in Thessaloniki, during which the arrested remain for many hours locked up in jail without being informed on the reason for their detention, and despite not having the status of detainees.
- abuse of the police against transgender people.
- the utterly illegal -and defying the Rule of Law- detention of the defender of transgender persons, Athens lawyer Electra Koutra in the early hours of Wednesday, 5 June 2013 at the Police Station of Democratias Square in Thessaloniki.

We call upon the authorities:

- to conduct a thorough investigation into the arbitrary arrests of transgender people, the behavior of police officers towards them and the conditions under which they were deprived of their liberty during these systematic arrests
- to conduct a thorough investigation and to identify all those responsible for the illegal detention and arbitrariness of police officers servicemen in Police Station of Democratias Square against the Athens Lawyer Electra Koutra, who had visited the Police Station in order to clarify the nature and the reason for the detention of an arrested transgender person as part of rightful support.

We declare that we will monitor closely the progress of the case of the unlawful deprivation of liberty and other offences against transgender persons, and we will await the findings of the Swoen Administrative Investigation, and also the findings of Prosecutor’s Inquiry on arbitrary detention and the degrading treatment of Electra Koutra, Lawyer – defender of Justice and Chair of Hellenic Action for Human Rights – “Pleiades”, who has stood up as an advocate of the rightful claims of the LGBT community.


So anyway, pardon the stream of consciousness post, but it seems like there are a few different things going on from what I can find:

a) some police harassment of transgender people and/or sex workers, who have been detained for hours at a time for little reason
b) long term detention of asylum seekers, probably not in very good conditions

It is not clear to me that these are related in a specific way.


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 Post subject: Re: Global LGBT(TIQQ2SA...) Rights Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:12 am 
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I gotta say that making a "catchall" thread--rather than to let individual stories stand on their own--is downright offensive. To put all of these stories under one umbrella is to relegate them to a single corner of this forum and that ain't cool. It's what any marginalized person experiences on a daily basis--there's either no place for them in the conversation, or a place only in certain conversations. Why shouldn't the reports of hateful legislation in Russia and Greece get their own threads? They're certainly grave enough and urgent enough to merit their own conversations. Yes, the different reports connect into a larger theme (and as with any sociopolitical issue, you can't divorce the pieces from each other) but for crikey, the readers here are intelligent enough to put those themes together. I know it's not your intent, but I think a "catchall" thread means a lot of voices are going to get lost in the mire.

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 Post subject: Re: Global LGBT(TIQQ2SA...) Rights Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:43 am 
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tinglepants! wrote:
I gotta say that making a "catchall" thread--rather than to let individual stories stand on their own--is downright offensive.


The intent was to draw attention to the global problem of discrimination, which individual threads on each story would not have done. Its the same reason we have the "Things that Challenge Your Feminism" thread, because it is useful to see all those issues as part of the same holistic problem. And we can still have separate threads on individual issues (as we do about other feminist issues) and countries (like we do for the attempts to enact repressive legislation in Uganda), which I for one would be very interested in.

That said, I completely agree with you on this.
Quote:
It's what any marginalized person experiences on a daily basis--there's either no place for them in the conversation, or a place only in certain conversations.

I have been trying to find a way to say that in my own life, so thank you for languaging it for me.

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 Post subject: Re: Global LGBT(TIQQ2SA...) Rights Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:02 pm 
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I think the term catchall was not the best choice of words for sure, but this thread doesn't feel wrong to me, personally. I think there are many issues that are either largely speculative, or just a little too broad in focus for one specific thread. And like Tofulish said, it's about "the global problem of discrimination", which to me is actually a specific thing, and not a "catchall" thing. But it's true many of what's been talked about here could easily have had their own thread.

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 Post subject: Re: Global LGBT(TIQQ2SA...) Rights Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:23 pm 
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Well, I probably would have had a different reaction had the term "catchall" not been present...it's a pretty loaded term and I think we all have a responsibility to remember how much weight our language can carry.

And yes, I agree it's necessary to discuss discrimination as a global problem--but beyond that, you can fix the whole unless you give proper attention to its parts.

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 Post subject: Re: Global LGBT(TIQQ2SA...) Rights Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:23 pm 
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"Catchall" is a loaded term? OK, the mods are more than welcome to delete the thread if they'd like. I'll go elsewhere and discuss this with people who are outraged about abuses of human rights, not the format of the discussion.


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 Post subject: Re: Global LGBT(TIQQ2SA...) Rights Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:20 pm 
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Anyone care to explain why "catchall" is a loaded term?

Frankly, I'm surprised at the reaction this thread has received. Please remember that language and tone having a big impact goes both ways.

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 Post subject: Re: Global LGBT(TIQQ2SA...) Rights Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:31 pm 
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I'm offended by lack of LBGT rights in other countries and my own, but not by this thread.


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 Post subject: Re: Global LGBT(TIQQ2SA...) Rights Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 10:04 pm 
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I've never heard that the word "catchall" is loaded. I even briefly googled to see if I was missing something. I don't think there is anything wrong with this post, I think it's a great idea for now because so many interconnected things are going on at once and it'd be nice to have one flowing conversation about it where people aren't repeating themselves or talking over each other. So I think it's a good idea! It doesn't mean that no new LGBT threads can be started and it doesn't mean that this one will live on forever. It's just like, holy cats, stuff's going down, let's organize it.

So maybe it's too late to save, but if it's all the same to everyone, unless someone can cite "catchall" as offensive, I'll delete the complain and we can keep on keepin on.

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 Post subject: Re: Global LGBT(TIQQ2SA...) Rights Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 10:21 pm 
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The word itself is fine I think, I get the feeling that to tinglepants, it was the context around it that was offensive. More like, what the idea of a 'catchall thread' conjured. I think this thread definitely has a place, but we should probably just keep in mind that there are concerns by people about it.

IsaChandra wrote:
I think it's a great idea for now because so many interconnected things are going on at once and it'd be nice to have one flowing conversation about it where people aren't repeating themselves or talking over each other.


And this is a nice way of putting the intention of this thread I think. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Global LGBT(TIQQ2SA...) Rights Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 2:41 am 
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It's fine to delete my earlier comment...I really should have said that I think "catchall" can be a reductive term, not a loaded one. I have a much more articulate explanation of what I meant but I'm, at the moment, too tired to do so without likely bungling my words again.

I agree that it's good to have a conversation about interconnectivity--I'm not disputing that. Nor am I trying to start a fight. I genuinely think that there is a danger in framing this as a generalized (which is how I read "catchall) discussion, rather than one of specifics. I'm not saying that's what the conversation will be, and I'm definitely not commenting on the intentions of the OP--just saying that when I first read the opening of this thread, it very much felt to me like a singular umbrella. It isn't an argument about format...and I'm really not trying to troll.

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 Post subject: Re: Global LGBT(TIQQ2SA...) Rights Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 8:14 am 
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I think that it would also be nice if people posted positive things that are happening in their countries. There are certainly places where things are and have been improving for a long time.

Americans should also not pretend that things are all peach pie and sunshine. The recent Supreme Court victories do not negate the huge amount of work left before there anything really resembling equality exists in the USA.

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 Post subject: Re: Global LGBT(TIQQ2SA...) Rights Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 9:43 am 
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annak wrote:
The whole article is well worth reading - as it points out, Russia is hosting the 2014 Olympics, which is both terrifying for athletes and teams and an opportunity to draw global attention to the issue.

I am interested in this. I often wonder how much power boycotts have and also wonder which countries would stand up to do it. I think it would be effective on such a large stage as this but I don't know that any country would actually do it.

There's also a lot of issues surrounding specifically lesbian/gay people in US sports as late with the first male pro athlete coming out in the past couple of months (front cover of SI, and has been getting more mentions). I know most people here don't follow sports but it's a pretty big deal. And goes to show how far mired in some serious homophobia some still are regarding masculinity and pro sports.

Someone like Britney Griner saying she's a strong black lesbian woman in ESPN magazine both shows how far we've come and how far we have to go. She's pretty badass though. And props to mainstream magazines challenging the dominant paradigm of sports.

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 Post subject: Re: Global LGBT(TIQQ2SA...) Rights Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 10:07 am 
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Vantine wrote:
I think that it would also be nice if people posted positive things that are happening in their countries. There are certainly places where things are and have been improving for a long time.


I was just coming in here to post this video from the Scottish Equal Marriage campaign, which made me smile so much:



All the leaders of the parties in the Scottish Parliament are in it supporting the campaign, and it's looking likely we'll have an equal marriage law passed before too long.

(Plus I love Amy Macdonald, who let them use her song in the video for free).

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 Post subject: Re: Global LGBT(TIQQ2SA...) Rights Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 11:17 am 
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What an awesome video! I hope more people post about positive actions taking place in their countries. I would love to see what is happening as far as transgender/sexual rights.

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 Post subject: Re: Global LGBT(TIQQ2SA...) Rights Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 1:11 pm 
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That video was amazing.


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 Post subject: Re: Global LGBT(TIQQ2SA...) Rights Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 1:25 pm 
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That video was fantastic, thanks for posting it!

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 Post subject: Re: Global LGBT(TIQQ2SA...) Rights Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 2:55 pm 
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That video is pure awesome! Thankyou so much for posting it, Imogen. I got all snottery on the bus watching it.

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 Post subject: Re: Global LGBT(TIQQ2SA...) Rights Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 4:21 pm 
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I can see why having a catchall thread can become difficult where so many identites overlap and intersect, such as the VRA changes. It affects people of colour badly since black and Hispanic people are much less likely than whites to have IDs, but its also going to be pretty bad for trans* folks:

Quote:
....in 2012 the Williams Institute found that voter ID laws "may create substantial barriers to voting and possible disenfranchisement for over 25,000 transgender voters this November." 41% of transgender citizens surveyed said they didn't have an updated driver's license, 74% did not have an updated passport, and 27% had no documents that listed their true gender.


http://www.autostraddle.com/supreme-cou ... ts-182536/

Its like SCOTUS is trying to say federal marriage benefits for some, disenfranchisement for others.

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 Post subject: Re: Global LGBT(TIQQ2SA...) Rights Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 5:06 pm 
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Shy Mox wrote:
I can see why having a catchall thread can become difficult where so many identites overlap and intersect, such as the VRA changes. It affects people of colour badly since black and Hispanic people are much less likely than whites to have IDs, but its also going to be pretty bad for trans* folks:

Quote:
....in 2012 the Williams Institute found that voter ID laws "may create substantial barriers to voting and possible disenfranchisement for over 25,000 transgender voters this November." 41% of transgender citizens surveyed said they didn't have an updated driver's license, 74% did not have an updated passport, and 27% had no documents that listed their true gender.


http://www.autostraddle.com/supreme-cou ... ts-182536/

Its like SCOTUS is trying to say federal marriage benefits for some, disenfranchisement for others.


Yeah, this is largely what I was getting at upthread. It was difficult to see the word "catchall" in the context of identities that are still continually erased and persecuted.

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 Post subject: Re: Global LGBT(TIQQ2SA...) Rights Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 8:21 pm 
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My only issue with a "catchall" thread is that topics deserving of their own thread get jumbled up and mixed in with other topics. For example, there was something in the feminism thread that I wanted to discuss on its own (the Steubenville case, I think?) but it was mainly being discussed there, interspersed with other stories. That said, I think something like this can be good to show all the different ongoing things that might garner only a few replies in their own thread.

Anyway, since this exists and I'm shy about starting threads...has anyone heard about the K-12 transgender rights bill that passed in California?! Damn, I have been loving my state lately.

ETA a link: http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nati ... a/2488171/

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 Post subject: Re: Global LGBT(TIQQ2SA...) Rights Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 8:39 pm 
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Okay you guys, if you want to argue about the word catchall or other language issues, please start a new thread. This is what happened to the 'women without children' thread and i'm putting my foot down on this one getting off track. None of the mods think it needs to be closed.

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