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 Post subject: Re: Global LGBT(TIQQ2SA...) Rights Thread
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 4:23 pm 
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Anyhow, here's an article that says it better than I do

http://ideas.time.com/2014/02/28/dont-a ... der-mammy/

Considering that new thread about venting on the internet I should maybe stop. Haha. ;P

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 Post subject: Re: Global LGBT(TIQQ2SA...) Rights Thread
PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 8:10 am 
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I read this thread story last night and I understand the concerns but they seemed to be misplaced (and don't read the comments)
http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/07/us/transg ... -crossfit/

I understand the idea that someone might have a physiological advantage but if someone hasn't had their testosterone producing organs for 8 years and is on female hormone replacement therapy, then I would guess they are on the same playing field as any female. I'm guessing if you tested her hormones, they would be in line with any other female competitor's hormones.

I can't imagine there is actually a physiological advantage. Of course where might be a gray area is if someone had recently had surgery or recently started hormone replacement therapy, there could be a physiological advantage because they would've been able to train with the advantage that male hormones provide.

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 Post subject: Re: Global LGBT(TIQQ2SA...) Rights Thread
PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 12:00 pm 
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Mars wrote:
Anyhow, here's an article that says it better than I do

http://ideas.time.com/2014/02/28/dont-a ... der-mammy/

Considering that new thread about venting on the internet I should maybe stop. Haha. ;P



Thanks for sharing! It's encouraging to see articles like this in mainstream magazines such as Time. (And no, I didn't read the comments because I don't want to punch my computer at work.)


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 Post subject: Re: Global LGBT(TIQQ2SA...) Rights Thread
PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 8:47 pm 
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linanil wrote:
I read this thread story last night and I understand the concerns but they seemed to be misplaced (and don't read the comments)
http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/07/us/transg ... -crossfit/

I understand the idea that someone might have a physiological advantage but if someone hasn't had their testosterone producing organs for 8 years and is on female hormone replacement therapy, then I would guess they are on the same playing field as any female. I'm guessing if you tested her hormones, they would be in line with any other female competitor's hormones.

I can't imagine there is actually a physiological advantage. Of course where might be a gray area is if someone had recently had surgery or recently started hormone replacement therapy, there could be a physiological advantage because they would've been able to train with the advantage that male hormones provide.

Yeah, there's enough proof out there that after a certain amount of time on hormone replacement therapy, it's the same playing field. And then there's the whole case of some cisgendered women who have male-levels of testosterone in their bodies, they're allowed to compete still as women. (Though one woman did get quite a bit of issue from that as it was thought she was artificially getting those hormones but that's another story). So, it's definitely transmisogyny. I mean, the dang Olympics has claimed it's okay for trans people to compete as their chosen gender, I think that's kind of the gold standard, no?! Oh, it's okay for the Olympics, but sorry, CrossFit is too prestigious for that kind of thing.

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 Post subject: Re: Global LGBT(TIQQ2SA...) Rights Thread
PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2014 3:56 pm 
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http://boingboing.net/2014/04/04/rupaul.html

I think this is a very well-written article. Definitely might be a little controversial but I'm into it.

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 Post subject: Re: Global LGBT(TIQQ2SA...) Rights Thread
PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2014 3:25 pm 
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I thought this story, about a gay refugee from Iran, was fascinating:

http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/bein ... d=19671283

Quote:
I'm 16.
"May I ask you something personal?"

I know what's coming.

I look at my aunt as she takes her time to assemble the correct words. She is a tiny, sweet woman wearing a loosely draped head scarf, staring at me with shining dark-brown eyes. I love her more dearly than anything in the world. Of course I will tell her the truth. I can't think of a reason to hide from her. It isn't as if she might murder me or run around spreading my secret. She's not one of those closed-minded, brainwashed people who would automatically judge me. She spent most of her life outside of Iran, living and working as an architect in Norway and Germany. If there is anyone out there who would understand me, it's her.

"Are you gay, Feri Kitty?" she asks.

My name is Farhad, but since I was little, my aunt has affectionately called me Feri Kitty, referring to my soft spot for kittens.

"You call me Feri Kitty and expect me to be who? Robocop?" I snap. The bisque inside me has been growing day by day.

She just gazes at me. Eventually she smiles and wraps me in her arms. "It's okay. There's no need to be aggressive... everything is going to be okay."

I weep into her shoulder and can't respond.


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 Post subject: Re: Global LGBT(TIQQ2SA...) Rights Thread
PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 9:48 am 
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linanil wrote:
http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/07/us/transgender-lawsuit-crossfit/

I understand the idea that someone might have a physiological advantage but if someone hasn't had their testosterone producing organs for 8 years and is on female hormone replacement therapy, then I would guess they are on the same playing field as any female. I'm guessing if you tested her hormones, they would be in line with any other female competitor's hormones.

I don't know why there wouldn't be a physiological advantage just from growing up taller, bigger, and stronger than you would have if you were born female. Just because you currently have female hormones doesn't seem to negate the previous benefits.

On top of that I think the headache of trying to regulate this (proving that you're taking at least enough hormones to negate all advantages for a long period of time) would be even bigger than the drug testing nightmare they have in bicycling. Which is clearly failing because nearly every bicyclist dopes.

It's unfortunate that you will be at too much of a disadvantage to compete against men and not allowed to compete against women, but maybe they can make a transgendered competition if there's enough interest?


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 Post subject: Re: Global LGBT(TIQQ2SA...) Rights Thread
PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 9:59 am 
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Well more testosterone = ability to make more muscle but muscle atrophies and the absence of testosterone would mean loss of muscle mass.

Also, in weight lifting competitions, being taller is generally a disadvantage. I'm not sure how tall she is but women can be tall, but that is generally seen as a disadvantage for Crossfit.

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 Post subject: Re: Global LGBT(TIQQ2SA...) Rights Thread
PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 10:13 am 
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Not to mention, if a sport doesn't have a height or weight restriction within a category, or if a person fits within any height or weight restriction that may exist, then how would there be a physiological advantage? Put another way, if a taller/bigger/stronger than average cisgender woman would not be excluded from the competition, then I see no reason a trans* woman who fits within any height or weight restriction should be excluded.

(I know nothing about crossfit. I'm just speaking of sport in general.)

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 Post subject: Re: Global LGBT(TIQQ2SA...) Rights Thread
PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 10:47 am 
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I feel I don't know enough about the competitions or physical differences to have any real say, I can just imagine that there are advantages to being taller, bigger boned, etc. While a taller cigender woman could compete, she likely still wouldn't be as tall as if she were born a man. I feel like that's arguing that there are 7 foot tall people out there so it's okay if I compete in stilts to make me that tall.

There's a similar debate going on in many sports about players wanting to use HGH or some other banned substance to recover from injuries faster, then claim they won't use it while competing. The problem is that doctors think they gain benefits that last longer than just during the use of the banned substances. It's sad what athletes are doing to their bodies these days to compete (they think the vast majority of NFL players use HGH), but that's kind of another topic. I do think there are enough driven people in the world that allowing this could lead to more people changing genders, or at least taking the hormone procedures, just for the competitive advantage. If there is one. I'm just speculating that there is.


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 Post subject: Re: Global LGBT(TIQQ2SA...) Rights Thread
PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 11:03 am 
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But sexual dimorphism in humans is not so great that the height difference between men and women is vastly significant. Sure, looking at population averages, men will be taller. But there's enough range on either side of those bell-curves, and enough variation between populations, that even amongst cisgender folk, there's vast amounts of cross over. For example, any number of my female friends in the Netherlands (known to have one of the tallest populations in Europe) are the same height or taller than many of the men I know here in Belgium, and we're talking about a distance of just a few hundred kilometers. Are you saying that a trans* woman who is 5'9" has some nebulous advantage over a cisgender woman of 5'10"? Or do you think that Dutch women should also be excluded from international competitions, because they will have a height advantage over, say, French or Italian women?

And all of this talk of height may be moot because, as linanil pointed out, being tall doesn't necessarily confer any advantage, depending on the sport.

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 Post subject: Re: Global LGBT(TIQQ2SA...) Rights Thread
PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 11:42 am 
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It's a good point that we take lots of advantages for granted already. I think it's a given that eastern European white males will be the only ones contesting for world's strongest man competition and that the lighter boned western Africans will typically dominate long-distance running, etc.

But I think the gender differences, whatever they are, don't have to be big to convey a big advantage in sports where every inch counts. I'm certainly not saying that a trans* woman who is 5'9" will have any advantage over a cisgender 5'10" woman in a sport where height is good. But I think trans* women probably average being taller, or stronger, or something that is due to their birth sex. I don't think that advantage is similar to being from the Netherlands instead of Belgium because there's already a competition category for people born of that sex.

I'd like to hear scientists who study these things talk about this more. When blade runner asked to compete in the Olympics I think they did a pretty convincing job of showing how his blades gave him no physical advantage. That could certainly be the case here, I just don't think it will be because men and women do not average the same size, strength etc. for humans and changing hormones only changes some of those effects, not all.


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 Post subject: Re: Global LGBT(TIQQ2SA...) Rights Thread
PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 12:21 pm 
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Tigon wrote:
I do think there are enough driven people in the world that allowing this could lead to more people changing genders, or at least taking the hormone procedures, just for the competitive advantage. If there is one. I'm just speculating that there is.


Okay, so. I know you're well meaning, but this line of reasoning comes from the same place as the "bathroom" debates about trans people—assumptions about their motives that are fallacious. This, as a trans person, is REALLY offensive. Gender dysphoria is a really serious thing, not just something people try on for fun. There have been cases of non-trans people transitioning socially who ended up with severe mental health effects from the stress of doing it. Straw man. Just not even in the picture.

A lot of sports bodies follow the IOC policy, which is this:
Quote:
The IOC’s policy says only those who have:
1. undergone sex reassignment surgery
2. had hormone treatments for at least two years, and
3. received legal recognition of their transitioned sex
can participate consistent with their gender identities (IOC, 2003).


(some sports governing bodies allow some leeway, like NCAA allowed me to compete pre-medical transition because I was an FTM athlete). The thing is, sex hormones are REALLY powerful things, with pretty transient results. I am not a biologist, but I am a trans person who knows a lot of trans people and prefers the medical model to apply to myself. Trans men off testosterone for a while? You start feminizing pretty rapidly. I missed my shot once (went 20 days instead of 7) and felt the effects on my athletic abilities.

I am using trans men as an example here, because testosterone is the issue. She has undergone SRS, which means her body does not naturally produce testosterone. Moreover, trans people are, on average, on HRT to treat gender dysphoria, and the way dosage is done is so that your hormone levels stay within normal ranges for the target sex. Often, trans women take hormone blockers along with estrogen therapy. There is no way she could retain a competitive advantage under these circumstances, particularly since she was 8 years post-gender affirming surgery and has been on HRT the entire time.

Also, the idea of a separate class of competition just for trans athletes is a terrible one. That would force people to out themselves or face repercussions for the sake of following the rules, which has any number of problems for personal safety and their right to privacy. I am stealth in real life and just the thought causes me extreme anxiety. Trans men are men. Trans women are women. Nobody has a right to know my private medical history except me and my doctor, and that's what a separate trans category really means.

Additional PSA (not directed at anyone): "transgendered" is actually pretty offensive.

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 Post subject: Re: Global LGBT(TIQQ2SA...) Rights Thread
PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 12:27 pm 
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Yeah a separate class of competition would make no sense. I think the only reason that this caused a problem is because she asked but apparently there were people who knew she was a transwoman.

(and it would be a separate conversation, but why is transgendered offensive? what would be the generic term for transwomen/transmen as a whole?)

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 Post subject: Re: Global LGBT(TIQQ2SA...) Rights Thread
PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 12:33 pm 
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It is reasonable for her to ask if they don't have any rules in place. The state of the world is that, by not asking and if it came out, the court of public opinion would find her guilty of being trans and she'd be disqualified forever.

(re. transgendered—I don't actually know why it's offensive. I think it has to do with implying it's a verb and something people do instead of something people are. The generic term would be "trans person" or "transgender person". And a lot of people feel pretty strongly about the space too)

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 Post subject: Re: Global LGBT(TIQQ2SA...) Rights Thread
PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 12:40 pm 
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zwingtip wrote:
Gender dysphoria is a really serious thing, not just something people try on for fun.

My implication about people choosing to circumvent rules that way was not meant as a comment about the motives of people with gender dysphoria. I don't disagree with anything you've just said. Sorry for coming off as offensive.


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 Post subject: Re: Global LGBT(TIQQ2SA...) Rights Thread
PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 12:46 pm 
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Thanks zwingtip, for that fantastic reply. I was trying to formulate a similar post but you've done it far more eloquently than I could.

I'd also like to point out that just because some unscrupulous person might go through a whole lot of trouble to take advantage of a rule change, that's not a good enough reason to deny a whole group of a set of rights or opportunities. When gay marriage was legalized in Canada two smart-ass straight men got legally married to take advantage of the tax benefits "just because they could". Well, so what? Should all gay couples be denied rights just because of a couple of smarmy ass-hats?

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 Post subject: Re: Global LGBT(TIQQ2SA...) Rights Thread
PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 12:47 pm 
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Tigon wrote:
zwingtip wrote:
Gender dysphoria is a really serious thing, not just something people try on for fun.

My implication about people choosing to circumvent rules that way was not meant as a comment about the motives of people with gender dysphoria. I don't disagree with anything you've just said. Sorry for coming off as offensive.


You're talking about people undergoing treatments for gender dysphoria in order to circumvent the rules. This is exactly the argument people make against allowing trans men and women to use bathrooms and changing rooms that fit their gender.

Edit: Also you are fundamentally misunderstanding how difficult a process transitioning is, both logistically and emotionally. I have been transitioning since I was 17. I am now 23. My transition is still not complete. It requires court orders and doctor's visits and psych appointments. Getting treatment for dysphoria requires psych's recommendation letters. Nobody does this just because they can because it's the easy way out.

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 Post subject: Re: Global LGBT(TIQQ2SA...) Rights Thread
PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 12:59 pm 
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zwingtip wrote:
You're talking about people undergoing treatments for gender dysphoria in order to circumvent the rules. This is exactly the argument people make against allowing trans men and women to use bathrooms and changing rooms that fit their gender.

Edit: Also you are fundamentally misunderstanding how difficult a process transitioning is, both logistically and emotionally. I have been transitioning since I was 17. I am now 23. My transition is still not complete. It requires court orders and doctor's visits and psych appointments. Getting treatment for dysphoria requires psych's recommendation letters. Nobody does this just because they can because it's the easy way out.

I don't think it's an easy way out or that it's easy in any sense. I also don't think my statement relates to using bathrooms. Civil rights are a very different category than sports regulations.

ALL that I've said is that there may be permanent physical differences between people who grew up a different sex. I haven't doubted that hormones can undo any current hormonal advantages. I've merely speculated that there may be lasting physical effects from the years or decades of growing up of the opposite sex than your opponents.

I don't think this in any way relates to who uses what bathroom or any other civil rights issues.


Last edited by Tigon on Mon Jun 02, 2014 1:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Global LGBT(TIQQ2SA...) Rights Thread
PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 1:00 pm 
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It would be like getting your legs cut off so you could compete in running events with prosthetic blades. It's not just, "cut legs off, get blades, profit." You'd be talking years of physical therapy, the ongoing risk of major medical complications, and changes to just about every aspect of your mobility before you could even think about competing at that level. And even if, given all that, a person actually made the decision to do it, good luck finding a doctor who would be willing to perform the surgery. It's just not realistic.

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 Post subject: Re: Global LGBT(TIQQ2SA...) Rights Thread
PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 1:04 pm 
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Yeah, and I've just finished telling you that no there really aren't any notable permanent physical differences. Hormones are the biggest factor here. And it is exactly the same argument. That because the straw man who will bend the rules for personal gain, all trans people should have to suffer and be treated as Other.

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 Post subject: Re: Global LGBT(TIQQ2SA...) Rights Thread
PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 1:09 pm 
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zwingtip wrote:
Yeah, and I've just finished telling you that no there really aren't any notable permanent physical differences.

Then I agree with you. If all the height, size, bone density, and/or whatever sex differences that exist go away then there shouldn't be any issues for anyone. I didn't realize that happened.


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 Post subject: Re: Global LGBT(TIQQ2SA...) Rights Thread
PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 1:09 pm 
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I was thinking that if she was recognized legally as a woman then I believe that she wouldn't have to ask. Although the IOC has rules and she would fit within those rules, Crossfit should smarten up and adopt the same rules as the IOC.

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 Post subject: Re: Global LGBT(TIQQ2SA...) Rights Thread
PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 1:13 pm 
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linanil wrote:
I was thinking that if she was recognized legally as a woman then I believe that she wouldn't have to ask.


So getting legal recognition is actually really tricky and may not be consistent from state to state. I am legally male according to the federal government and my driver's license, but female on my birth certificate for example.

But also, legal recognition doesn't mean shiitake in most trans person vs. public outrage cases because then you even more "OMG you're trying to deceive us poor long suffering cis people" responses.

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 Post subject: Re: Global LGBT(TIQQ2SA...) Rights Thread
PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 1:14 pm 
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Sports regulations absolutely have to do with civil rights, because civil rights include protection of discrimination from private organizations.

Also Autostraddle did a good piece on the issue
http://www.autostraddle.com/crossfit-ba ... st-227654/

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