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 Post subject: Bill Nye vs Ken Hamm at the Creationism Museum
PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:05 pm 
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Live feed:

http://mobile.rawstory.com/therawstory/ ... 21/media/2

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 Post subject: Re: Bill Nye vs Ken Hamm at the Creationism Museum
PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 11:06 pm 
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Here's a better link http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/201 ... nd-ken-ham

It's alarming how well spoken Ken Hamm can be. He doesn't actually make any sense, but with a topic like this, that's irrelevant anyway. He is very clever at taking things out of context. I'm particularly amused/enraged by how he twists the meaning of physical geology versus historical geology.

I haven't watched Bill Nye's response yet.

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 Post subject: Re: Bill Nye vs Ken Hamm at the Creationism Museum
PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 11:21 pm 
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Too tired to watch right now, but I will. Thanks for the link. Although I guess that won't work after it's over? Well I"m sure I can find it when I'm ready to watch.

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 Post subject: Re: Bill Nye vs Ken Hamm at the Creationism Museum
PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 2:25 am 
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Everything I've read about this (before the fact) has said Bill Nye made a grave mistake in agreeing to do this. Did it end up going well?

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 Post subject: Re: Bill Nye vs Ken Hamm at the Creationism Museum
PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 2:35 am 
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I didn't watch the Q&A yet. I don't know that he made a mistake. Bill Nye is all about promoting science education and that is really what he used this platform to do.

I do feel queasy about all the money this is bringing the creation museum, but I do think it may have served a good purpose. I agree that scientists debating creationists makes it seem as if young earth theories have legitimacy, but Nye is a science popularizer, not a research or academic scientist. This is not to denigrate him at all because I think he is great, but I think he can wade into the trenches more easily than some like Neil Tyson DeGrasse could.

I think that there is a large segment of the population that is "skeptical" of evolution simply because they know it's "controversial" and they consider themselves Christians. Nye definitely pointed out all the billions of Christians who have no issues with modern science and he kept repeating that Ham uses an American English translation as the literal word of God.

My biggest quibble with this is really that I think the target audience (the undereducated and not super fundie Christian) will be missed. I'm guessing that the viewers will be creationists smugly watching Ham clobber Nye and science literate viewers smugly watching Nye clobber Ham.

(Ham very neatly brought in slams against abortion and gay marriage, right on cue! Unfortunately he lacked a banana wielding Kirk Cameron, but. I guess you can't have everything.)

ETA: in many states or districts, if you want your kids to get proper science education, you need to send them to Catholic school. Isn't that a riot?

ETA: a biology teacher at my school who has biology degrees from a very reputable state school is a young earth creationist. She is a good teacher and teaches the curriculum, but it just blows my mind.

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 Post subject: Re: Bill Nye vs Ken Hamm at the Creationism Museum
PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 1:57 pm 
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Pharyngula live-blogged it, too. Sounds like Nye did well, with the exception of a few mis-steps.

The real problem isn't that these "debates" give legitimacy to the kooks. It's that they give legitimacy to the idea that debates are the way to determine what's true about the world. If Bill Nye were a shitty speaker and debater, would that mean evolution wasn't the correct way to describe and explain the nature and diversity of life on Earth?

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 Post subject: Re: Bill Nye vs Ken Hamm at the Creationism Museum
PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 4:12 pm 
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Well, I don't think this was intended to be an actual debate where anybody would change minds. But it did lay out the issue in a mainstream format.

Unfortunately though, science is debated when it comes to public policy, so we already have science being treated as something to debate and pick a side on. This is super evident in state textbook battles.

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 Post subject: Re: Bill Nye vs Ken Hamm at the Creationism Museum
PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 5:26 pm 
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I couldn't stomach seeing this, but my husband watched with headphones in... it was fun to watch his facial expressions.


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 Post subject: Re: Bill Nye vs Ken Hamm at the Creationism Museum
PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 12:47 am 
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lavawitch wrote:
ETA: a biology teacher at my school who has biology degrees from a very reputable state school is a young earth creationist. She is a good teacher and teaches the curriculum, but it just blows my mind.


wait, whaaaaat? i can't comprehend this.

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 Post subject: Re: Bill Nye vs Ken Hamm at the Creationism Museum
PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 10:05 am 
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Has everyone seen the thing where PAT forking ROBINSON said that Ken Ham and young earth creationists should stfu because they are making Christians look like fools, because evidence overwhelmingly points to evolution/ big bang. I mean, when Pat Robertson calls you out for being a fundie wingnut on the 700 Club, well maybe your views ARE a bit wacky.


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 Post subject: Re: Bill Nye vs Ken Hamm at the Creationism Museum
PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 5:56 pm 
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Really? I thought Pat Robertson was also a creationist.

Maybe I just confuse him with Falwell. Liberty university definitely teaches creationism.

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 Post subject: Re: Bill Nye vs Ken Hamm at the Creationism Museum
PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 9:49 pm 
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lavawitch wrote:
Really? I thought Pat Robertson was also a creationist.

Maybe I just confuse him with Falwell. Liberty university definitely teaches creationism.

I know, me too! I was actually like"pat Robertson is saying... Things... I agree with?"

But this has been a topic (separately) with both my coworkers over the past couple of days, and our consensus, I think is that it is sorta crazy to debate the young earth types because they have magical thinking on their side. And hell, they're not going to convince us (none of us is religious) Also, while Bill Nye is awesome, only his late professor Carl "forking awesome" Segan could have moved his opposition to a firm belief in science and reason

Also, lw, I hope this is not inappropriate so far after the fact, but it's sad you and your dad did not get to watch together.


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 Post subject: Re: Bill Nye vs Ken Hamm at the Creationism Museum
PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 4:27 am 
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Olives wrote:

But this has been a topic (separately) with both my coworkers over the past couple of days, and our consensus, I think is that it is sorta crazy to debate the young earth types because they have magical thinking on their side. And hell, they're not going to convince us (none of us is religious)


This is my problem with these debates and why I didn't watch. Their authority is a book full of magical stories (not to be disrespectful, i just cant think of better phrasing right now) written by people thousands of years ago. We can't even agree on fundamental truths. How can we have a debate? I say, "evolution/ancient universe, because observation, experiments, data." They say, "creationism/young earth because Bible and at best, scientific illiteracy."

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 Post subject: Re: Bill Nye vs Ken Hamm at the Creationism Museum
PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 9:15 pm 
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Q: How can we solve this mystery?
Bill Nye: I don't know. Let's go figure it out!
Ken Hamm: Look in the Bible.

Q: What could convince you you were wrong.
Bill Nye: Evidence.
Ken Hamm: Nothing.

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 Post subject: Re: Bill Nye vs Ken Hamm at the Creationism Museum
PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 9:55 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Bill Nye vs Ken Hamm at the Creationism Museum
PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 10:25 pm 
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And yet (although it's old research now):
http://ncse.com/rncse/18/2/what-do-chri ... -evolution

The other interesting thing is the table in this wiki article, which has some substantial minority of people describing themselves as "atheist" and "secular" claiming to not support evolution as the best explanation for the origin of human life on earth. (Also, that religious institutions may be teaching that evolution is the best scientific answer, while a huge chunk of their followers are not buying it - what is that about? This is more complicated than religious faith if almost half of Catholics don't buy what the Catholic church is selling in its official statements and in its schools, y'know?)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Level_of_s ... ous_bodies

Also curious on what Jehovah's Witnesses teach, since apparently they are against both evolution and creationism.

And loving the Pat Robertson thing! He's mostly a crasshole, but I wish there were more Christians with right-wing cred calling these people out.


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 Post subject: Re: Bill Nye vs Ken Hamm at the Creationism Museum
PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 11:37 pm 
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Most people who believe in evolution in the US probably believe in so-called theistic evolution.

Pet peeve: the conflation of "secular" with "unbelieving." I don't think "secular" is about truth claims. It's about how the government/society should approach religion.

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 Post subject: Re: Bill Nye vs Ken Hamm at the Creationism Museum
PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 1:00 am 
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Ariann wrote:
And loving the Pat Robertson thing! He's mostly a crasshole, but I wish there were more Christians with right-wing cred calling these people out.


Mostly?

Just 'cause he (finally!) got one thing right doesn't mean he's not still a completely rotten human being.

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 Post subject: Re: Bill Nye vs Ken Hamm at the Creationism Museum
PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 10:21 pm 
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FootFace wrote:
Most people who believe in evolution in the US probably believe in so-called theistic evolution.

Pet peeve: the conflation of "secular" with "unbelieving." I don't think "secular" is about truth claims. It's about how the government/society should approach religion.


Huh. That's not my understanding of the term secular at all. That's not how it's used in my religion. It isn't used to mean unbelieving, but it does have to do with not feeling bound to religious strictures or beliefs.

I just looked up "secular" in Wikipedia and it seems that there is a related political idea called "secularism" that is what you describe, but that's not what being secular in general is necessarily about. Secular is a pretty broad term with a general meaning apart from the political ideology of the same name. (Also, amusingly, I know one of the researchers quoted in the wiki secularism article.)

I don't know Pat Robertson personally, so can't comment on the completely rotten person thing.


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 Post subject: Re: Bill Nye vs Ken Hamm at the Creationism Museum
PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 1:11 am 
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Secularism is the ideology, one that religious people can subscribe to as easily as anyone else. Secular just means pertaining to non-religious or non-spiritual matters.

Neither sense is (necessarily) opposed to religion or religious belief.

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 Post subject: Re: Bill Nye vs Ken Hamm at the Creationism Museum
PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 1:17 am 
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(And here's an article about a poll about belief in so-called theistic evolution.)

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 Post subject: Re: Bill Nye vs Ken Hamm at the Creationism Museum
PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 10:32 pm 
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FootFace wrote:
Secularism is the ideology, one that religious people can subscribe to as easily as anyone else. Secular just means pertaining to non-religious or non-spiritual matters.

Neither sense is (necessarily) opposed to religion or religious belief.


Yeah, I am not saying it has to do with opposition to religion. Generally I use secular with people who are actually practicing religion in a non-religious way (secular Christians celebrating Christmas without religious content, for example). I have never met someone who described themselves as secular who had dogmatic religious views. Eta: I amend that, haven't met American secularists who have dogmatic religious views. Many secular Israelis have dogmatic religious views, they just don't feel compelled by religious law, which is a little bit of a confusing combination.


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