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 Post subject: Re: Understanding Privilege
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 10:52 am 
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THANK YOU.

PAdude wrote:
There is nothing more damaging to a right cause than crazy talk.


PAdude wrote:
There is nothing more damaging to a right cause than crazy talk.


PAdude wrote:
There is nothing more damaging to a right cause than crazy talk.

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 Post subject: Re: Understanding Privilege
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 11:04 am 
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MOVING ON...

I had a moment yesterday where I recognized my own privilege. Right after the CEO of Mozilla resigned, I thought "good," then caught myself. I felt a moment of sympathy for this guy who is giving up his career based on one stupid thing he did five years ago.

THEN I caught myself again. He didn't just do something stupid. I mean, for him, it was probably nearly forgettable. A $1,000 contribution to Prop 8 isn't that much to someone who was earning the salary of a dot-commer five years from being named CEO; but the destruction and intent it represents is beyond quantifying. Oh, he resigned his post simply because of controversy around a contribution he made? Well, because of people like him and the political contributions they make, people have been losing their jobs for decades because of who they fall in love with, who they share their lives with, raise their children and pets with. So yeah, fork that guy and his hateful $1,000 contribution towards "traditional" marriage.

I read a piece in Salon yesterday about the whole issue, and there was a phrase that really made my heart sing. It talked about how years ago, a CEO being gay would be cause for controversy. Then support for gay rights was controversial and super "left coast." Now (granted, we're still in liberal Californialand), the bigot who upholds "traditional" marriage as the ONLY marriage is the outlier, the one who will be controversial and shunned for his/her opinions. I like this shift.

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 Post subject: Re: Understanding Privilege
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 11:30 am 
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Erika Soyf*cker wrote:
I read a piece in Salon yesterday about the whole issue, and there was a phrase that really made my heart sing. It talked about how years ago, a CEO being gay would be cause for controversy. Then support for gay rights was controversial and super "left coast." Now (granted, we're still in liberal Californialand), the bigot who upholds "traditional" marriage as the ONLY marriage is the outlier, the one who will be controversial and shunned for his/her opinions. I like this shift.
I read that, too, and had the same reaction. Unfortunately, there will always be people who want to make sure someone has less, feels like less, and has fewer rights and opportunities. But the degree to which we're seeing very mainstream, "ordinary" institutions, organizations, establishments, companies, etc. stand up for marriage equality and LGBT civil rights is worth celebrating. We're not there yet, and progress is never as quick as we'd like it to be, but we are moving in the right direction.

I had a similar reaction to the HoneyMaid ad that's been making the rounds these past few days.



While I suspect they already had this idea in the works when the first ad came out, it still gives me a good feeling, because the fact they knew this would be effective shows that the world is changing. No matter how much hateful noise they make, bigots, racists, and homophobes are already on the wrong side of history, and it's becoming ever more apparent that they've already lost.

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 Post subject: Re: Understanding Privilege
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 1:13 pm 
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I am not tearing up at a corporate cereal commercial. I repeat, no emotion here.


*sniff*

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 Post subject: Re: Understanding Privilege
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 1:32 pm 
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I don't think its your privilege, Erika, but more the way we're socialized to give the benefit of the doubt to rich, white, men, via their privilege. I really liked your post, because its such a reminder that his actions do have real world consequence and while we are tempted to explain it away as "Oh just a donation" that donation did real harm to people. I am so glad our culture is changing to a place where its just not okay to support anti- LGBT bigots.

The post reminded me a lot of the Colbert kerfuffle with #cancelcolbert. When I first read about Suey Park's campaign in response to Colbert's joke and tweet about the "Ching Chong Ding Dong Foundation" I first thought "Oh well its just a joke and no one takes it seriously, so why are people making a big deal about this?" And the more I read about it, the more it really dawned on me, that there is really a cost to those kind of jokes, because they normalize some of that language.

I liked Mia McKenzie of Black Girl Dangerous on it: http://www.blackgirldangerous.org/2014/ ... dont-need/

And this piece on the New Yorker blog summed it all perfectly:
http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/n ... eport.html

Quote:
#CancelColbert might have rankled and annoyed people who got Colbert’s joke, but Park says that the point of the “movement” was to argue that white liberals who routinely condemn what she called “worse racism” will often turn a blind eye to, or even defend, more tacit forms of prejudice, especially when they come from someone who shares their basic political beliefs. “The response shows the totality of white privilege,” Park said. “They say, ‘Suey is trying to take away a show we enjoy, so we’re going to start a petition to take away her First Amendment rights and make rape threats.’ All this happens because they were worried that a show they enjoyed might be taken away.”


It is effectively saying "I'm not racist so I can totally make racist jokes and get away with it because I am not a racist and we all know it and I am on your side." But racist jokes have a cost.

Mia McKenzie wrote:
I reject the idea that we “need” white racial satire. That it’s helping us somehow. That it’s so powerful a tool against oppression that without it we can never end racism. That POC should be grateful for it, because these white people making “ching chong” jokes, in the case of Colbert, and jokes about black men’s penises, in the case of Chelsea Handler, are on our side and somehow making our lives better with their humor. That’s some especially convoluted white savior nonsense. And really, if the white savior narrative had any validity at all (which it doesn’t), it wouldn’t have it in the form of Chelsea Handler, ok?


And this point was interesting as well:

New Yorker wrote:
#CancelColbert could be seen as a similar attempt to carve out space for Asian-Americans to discuss something that has nothing to do with parody, Daniel Snyder, or the good intentions of “The Colbert Report.” There’s a long tradition in American comedy of dumping tasteless jokes at the feet of Asians and Asian-Americans that follows the perception that we will silently weather the ridicule. If I were to predict which minority group the writers of a show like “The Colbert Report” would choose for an edgy, epithet-laden parody, I’d grimace and prepare myself for some joke about rice, karate, or broken English. The resulting discomfort has nothing to do with the intentions of the joke or the political views of the people laughing at it. Even when you want to be in on the joke—and you understand, intellectually, that you are not the one being ridiculed—it’s hard not to wonder why these jokes always come at the expense of those least likely to protest.

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 Post subject: Re: Understanding Privilege
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 1:36 pm 
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I never intended it to be personal.

I always like to challenge my views. I can't be right about everything. I always think I might be wrong, maybe I'm over estimating something or under estimating it. Perhaps i neglected something or over emphasized something else. I would like to find out. So I love it when people challenge me, force me to think and reevaluate. It's good to step out of your comfort zone. If I'm always around people who think exactly like me and have exactly my views, how will I know? This thread is called Understanding Privilege. Understanding, no less.

It's good to have a little bit of a thick skin. life is not sitting in a circle and singing koombaya. Sometimes someone will tell you, "you know, I think you are wrong." Embrace it.

To the mod: your e-mail didn't pass my spam filter. Therefore, I couldn't answer you. got your message now. Thanks.

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 Post subject: Re: Understanding Privilege
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 1:47 pm 
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The way Colbert gets a pass from Liberals reminds me of how Bill Maher gets a pass for sexist language.

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 Post subject: Re: Understanding Privilege
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 1:58 pm 
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Those Colbert segments make me really uncomfortable. I like his show generally, but really, really wish he'd just drop the "character."

In the context of the extreme underrepresentation of Asian Americans on TV here and the generally racist ways they're portrayed (Big Bang Theory anyone?), it's even worse than it would be in a vacuum.


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 Post subject: Re: Understanding Privilege
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 2:18 pm 
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Fun fact: if you send someone a PM, it will sit in your outbox until they read it. So if you send someone a PM and it's no longer in your outbox and they say they didn't read it, they're lying.

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 Post subject: Re: Understanding Privilege
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 2:20 pm 
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What is problematic to me about the #CancelColbert brouhaha is that it has almost entirely redirected public outrage from a very real foundation headed by a non-fictional character which uses a racial slur in its name. A foundation purported to help the very people being targeted by such a vile slur.

I'm not saying Colbert is right or wrong- I'm just saying it seems like this egregious example of racism against original inhabitants is not receiving as much attention as racism against Asians.

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 Post subject: Re: Understanding Privilege
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 2:21 pm 
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mrsbadmouth wrote:
Fun fact: if you send someone a PM, it will sit in your outbox until they read it. So if you send someone a PM and it's no longer in your outbox and they say they didn't read it, they're lying.


You need to grow a thicker skin. Sometimes people lie. Embrace it.

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 Post subject: Re: Understanding Privilege
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 2:40 pm 
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Erika Soyf*cker wrote:
What is problematic to me about the #CancelColbert brouhaha is that it has almost entirely redirected public outrage from a very real foundation headed by a non-fictional character which uses a racial slur in its name. A foundation purported to help the very people being targeted by such a vile slur.

I'm not saying Colbert is right or wrong- I'm just saying it seems like this egregious example of racism against original inhabitants is not receiving as much attention as racism against Asians.


Well, there isn't a limited quantity of outrage in the world. We can care about both issues, just as we can care about the Mozilla CEO and the treatment of LGBT people in Uganda. I don't think its fair to say that #cancelcolbert has taken anything from the public outrage over Snyder's foundation. If anything, it has kept the story in the news.

The New Yorker article and Black Girl Dangerous go to this and are worth a read, if you are interested. When liberal white people use mock racism to draw attention to horrible racist white people (like Dan Snyder), it doesn't mean that it isn't racism, just because it is in jest. And its not really fair to say "Well Asians need to shut up and get that this was sarcasm intended to draw attention this egregious example of racism against original inhabitants, because that racism is "real" racism that is perpetrated by bad racists, whereas our racism was just in fun, and intended to shed light on this other racism." Colbert's perpetuation of anti-Asian racism is real with real victims and real costs. And the New Yorker talks about this too - Colbert's staff knows better than to make a similar joke with Black, Latinos or LGBT people, but they thought Asians would just shut up about it. I wish Colbert had found a better way to raise outrage about the Snyder foundation without needing to resort to cheap racist jokes about Asians. Two rights really don't make a wrong. And being an ally doesn't and shouldn't insulate you from being called on your racism.

I certainly hope that #cancelcolbert keeps the Dan Snyder racism in the headlines as well, but its also a very valuable teaching moment to underscore that any racism is not okay. Even by our allies or those who are doing it to draw attention to another set of racist issues.

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 Post subject: Re: Understanding Privilege
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 4:12 pm 
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Tofulish wrote:
Erika Soyf*cker wrote:
What is problematic to me about the #CancelColbert brouhaha is that it has almost entirely redirected public outrage from a very real foundation headed by a non-fictional character which uses a racial slur in its name. A foundation purported to help the very people being targeted by such a vile slur.

I'm not saying Colbert is right or wrong- I'm just saying it seems like this egregious example of racism against original inhabitants is not receiving as much attention as racism against Asians.


Well, there isn't a limited quantity of outrage in the world. We can care about both issues, just as we can care about the Mozilla CEO and the treatment of LGBT people in Uganda. I don't think its fair to say that #cancelcolbert has taken anything from the public outrage over Snyder's foundation. If anything, it has kept the story in the news.


Agree 100% with your first point, disagree strongly with the second. The only mention of Dan Snyder or his 'foundation' in any of the media I've seen over #CancelColbert is to mention the context of the original joke.

I did read the articles you posted (I have read lots of McKenzie's other pieces and really like her as an author), as well as others that have come out since the fracas ensued, and I have to say I'm a little confused by the interviews Suey Park has been giving. She actually doesn't want to the show to be cancelled and "is playing to a part and, in the process, satirizing what we might expect from a twenty-three-year-old hashtag activist." Huh?

Regardless of her as a person though, after reading these and other articles, it did raise the question of what this joke and others like it actually accomplish. Which is part of a larger question about what satire itself accomplishes- it's pretty unlikely that some rabid right-winger is going to watch a handful of Daily Show or Colbert episodes and have an ethical revelation. While I saw the joke as a piercing satire, I do recognize that it's not very useful at the very least, and at its worst, is hurtful to many.

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 Post subject: Re: Understanding Privilege
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 4:43 pm 
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Ugh. Hashtag activist? Is that a thing?


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 Post subject: Re: Understanding Privilege
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 4:55 pm 
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~Sz wrote:
Ugh. Hashtag activist? Is that a thing?


What is your objection to it? It gives someone who doesn't have a ton of access an opportunity to raise awareness of an issue by leveraging social media. And that is what Suey Park is talking about in her interviews - finding ways to be noticed and bringing awareness to a given issue when you're not part of the mainstream media or otherwise given access.

And it sounds at least here and with #notyourasiansidekick, its been pretty successful.

Erika wrote:
Agree 100% with your first point, disagree strongly with the second. The only mention of Dan Snyder or his 'foundation' in any of the media I've seen over #CancelColbert is to mention the context of the original joke.


Well at least its being mentioned and is in the public consciousness, to a degree it might not be without the twitter campaign, but its impossible to quantify the effect, so I am happy to agree to disagree. That said, if you agree with the first point (that we can all care about more than one thing) then the second point becomes irrelevant, because its not like the twitter campaign is taking anything from the Snyder coverage, any more than Kim Kardashian's Vogue cover is. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Understanding Privilege
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 5:11 pm 
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It just seems like another level of slacktivism. Call me old fashioned, I guess.


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 Post subject: Re: Understanding Privilege
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 5:16 pm 
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Is it slacktivism if it works? Part of the beauty of the FB/care2/ etc petitions or Twitter is that people who wouldn't show up to protest or write letters or send emails can still make a difference with minimal effort. I don't think that is a bad thing.

I don't show up at circus protests, but I'll sign every petition or retweet anti-circus information. Slactivist? Sure, but its better than nothing, which is my other option. And people who are no where near vegan have let me know that my posts have led them to no longer go to the circus. Is that less effective than me standing at a live protest yelling at people who have already bought tickets? I've been to circus protests and most people just walked by us and didn't care.

But I don't want to get too far off-topic. I just don't think slacktivism is necessarily a bad thing.

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 Post subject: Re: Understanding Privilege
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 5:18 pm 
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Tofulish wrote:
taking anything from the Snyder coverage, any more than Kim Kardashian's Vogue cover is. :)



DON'T YOU DARE TALK ABOUT KIM KIM LIKE THAT

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 Post subject: Re: Understanding Privilege
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 5:21 pm 
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Erika Soyf*cker wrote:
Tofulish wrote:
taking anything from the Snyder coverage, any more than Kim Kardashian's Vogue cover is. :)



DON'T YOU DARE TALK ABOUT KIM KIM LIKE THAT


I have no objection to them being on the Vogue cover :) I don't think it takes anything away from the situation in South Sudan, which would never be on the cover of Vogue anyway.

I will admit that I like Sarah Michelle Gellar less for slagging off Kimye. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Understanding Privilege
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 5:28 pm 
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Point taken, Tofulish! Thanks for the insight :)


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 Post subject: Re: Understanding Privilege
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 5:58 pm 
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Tofulish wrote:
Erika Soyf*cker wrote:
Tofulish wrote:
taking anything from the Snyder coverage, any more than Kim Kardashian's Vogue cover is. :)



DON'T YOU DARE TALK ABOUT KIM KIM LIKE THAT


I have no objection to them being on the Vogue cover :) I don't think it takes anything away from the situation in South Sudan, which would never be on the cover of Vogue anyway.

I will admit that I like Sarah Michelle Gellar less for slagging off Kimye. :)


I was just kiddin' ya! I honestly care as much about her as I do about a dog barking at a leaf.

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 Post subject: Re: Understanding Privilege
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 6:16 pm 
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I know! :) I wish the South Sudan were on the cover of Vogue. Its crazy that we have magazines devoted entirely to making someone want items of clothing that could feed a family for a year.

My friend has an awesome blog about being a nanny for wealthy Manhattan families and its really interesting to see how many people can't see how much they already have. http://hungrylittleanimal.blogspot.com/ ... about.html

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 Post subject: Re: Understanding Privilege
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 6:38 pm 
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Erika Soyf*cker wrote:
I honestly care as much about her as I do about a dog barking at a leaf.
I care about a dog barking at a leaf about a bajillion zillion times more than I care about any of those people because dogs and leaves are interesting. (Also: I'm not even entirely sure who that person is).

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 Post subject: Re: Understanding Privilege
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 7:27 pm 
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The boxer barking at the leaf? I loved that dog.

Kim Kardashian is not in the same league.

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 Post subject: Re: Understanding Privilege
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 10:09 pm 
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Not to further derail the conversation, but tumblr 'activists' who just reblog things they have no experience with and then scream at people on twitter really aren't do anything for any cause. This article mentions hashtag activists and was posted on ye olde facebooke today, so it seems timely.

http://boingboing.net/2014/04/04/rupaul.html
(and the article linked about the same girl attacking Calpernia Addams)
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/calpernia ... 77322.html

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