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 Post subject: Re: "The Confidence Gap"--women in the workplace
PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 1:21 am 
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Drunk Dialed Ian MacKaye
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That's so annoying. What are you supposed to sleep on? He didn't give you any numbers! Was he hinting that their original offer was a take it or leave it kind of deal?
It doesn't sound like your counteroffer was unreasonable at all, and they didn't actually counter it so I wouldn't reduce it at this point. I like your coworkers' idea: just show them the data one more time, tell them you're delighted they want you so badly and that you really hope you can find an agreement together, and ask them where they can meet you. This isn't super well researche strategy, just what I would do.

I wouldn't bring up the COO's attitude now, but hey, maybe take his advice and think about what you want in a company: are you going to interact wit him a lot and is that kind of attitude a deal breaker for you? Do you have other prospects shaping up?


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 Post subject: Re: "The Confidence Gap"--women in the workplace
PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 2:02 am 
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ETA: I can't remember, it's a lead scientist position, right? They need someone who will push the project forward and fight tooth and nail for it. They must have (should have) expected that candidates would fight just as hard for themselves.


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 Post subject: Re: "The Confidence Gap"--women in the workplace
PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 2:05 am 
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aelle wrote:
Do you have other prospects shaping up?

This to me is a question that would definitely change my advice for what to do here. I feel like... if you are pretty confident that you could get a job soon enough at that 10% higher rate you are asking for, then yeah I'd say stick to your guns and maybe even be a little hard about it, just oozing the confidence that you're bettering them, not the other way round.

However if you feel like there hasn't been a lot of job openings lately or what have you, maybe there'd be a compromise y'all could make. Sort of like a 'because I am really excited by the prospect of what this company is doing/will do, I'll except the X offer if we can also include [some sort of written something involving - I don't know, maybe a sooner wage review date?]'.

Somethin' like that is what I think. But yeah it does sound like they're (or just he's) definitely being ageist as well as sexist. Which is a whole separate bummer.

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 Post subject: Re: "The Confidence Gap"--women in the workplace
PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 7:12 am 
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lutin wrote:
I thought Canadaland was progressive about healthcare (and everything else)

Canada differs a lot from province to province and I don't live in a wealthy province. I'm hoping that they will just not keep track--it's not like I plan on missing work! As far as health care goes, my husband and I told our bosses we would only accept the job if an extended health plan (half of which is deducted from staff paycheques) with dental was provided. Basic health care in Nova Scotia is free (unlike in BC, where I paid thousands over the years!). I'm not too worried right now because I am luckily allowed to work from home every so often now that I hired someone to work in the office--so if I'm sick at least I can curl up with some tea and the kitties and soldier on.

But Canada isn't really as progressive as people assume. We are just a huge country with a small population so you hear about everything because without that there isn't news. Our current PM (Harper) lives happily under the shadow of the US and exists smugly several paces right of Obama.

Health care is still quite a bit better in the poorer provinces but it slaughtered me in BC.


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 Post subject: Re: "The Confidence Gap"--women in the workplace
PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 7:58 am 
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Couroupita, I'd tell them that they are getting a quality scientist, that you would really like the median salary and think that you are worth it. I can only thing of two options that they would say "ok" or "our first offer is our final offer" but really, I don't know of any company that offers their best offer as their first offer.

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 Post subject: Re: "The Confidence Gap"--women in the workplace
PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 8:21 am 
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linanil wrote:
Couroupita, I'd tell them that they are getting a quality scientist, that you would really like the median salary and think that you are worth it. I can only thing of two options that they would say "ok" or "our first offer is our final offer" but really, I don't know of any company that offers their best offer as their first offer.


I think linanil is wise. How stressful, I'm sorry that you are going through this and had to deal with such a paternalistic conversation. You deserve to be respected as a scientist, not treated like a naive young girl.

Vijita - health care isn't free in BC?! I had no idea! I've only lived in 3 provinces (none of which are BC) and I think the prairies were the best for health care, in my experience. In Ontario, most basic stuff is free, but a lot of stuff isn't, like if I phone my dr to ask him a question instead of making an in-person appointment that costs me $20, even though it's a lot more efficient if I just have a simple question!

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 Post subject: Re: "The Confidence Gap"--women in the workplace
PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 9:43 am 
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Sorry about your situation Couroupita. I'm pretty timid about this kind of thing. I think companies have all the power and I need a job, so I tend to accept whatever's offered and find what I want at another job instead of trying to change the one I'm at. Because the power struggle isn't even. It's easier for a company to hire someone else than for an employee to find another job. And not every company is willing to pay median salaries.


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 Post subject: Re: "The Confidence Gap"--women in the workplace
PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 12:26 pm 
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Also, keep in mind that they didn't say no. If you were being so crazy excessive in your request they could have simply said no. They want to wear you down.

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 Post subject: Re: "The Confidence Gap"--women in the workplace
PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 12:29 pm 
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vijita wrote:
Yes, great work! Inspiring!

I find job negotiating seriously difficult where I live now. I was offered two unpaid sick days a year which is apparently all the provincial government supports. and it just doesn't make sense to me! It's basically saying that if you are sick more than two days in a year not only will you not be paid, but you'll be fired. I get about 4-5 debilitating migraines a year and I most certainly can't work let under those conditions (I throw up, have hallucinations, have auras, blurred vision, throw up some more) and I wonder if I need to point that out--but I know in my work it will be seen as a disability or worse; "just a headache." Sometimes I don't even get a headache--I just lose my mind a bit and don't make any sense and go into panic mode. I don't get flus and colds often but I can't do anything about my migraines.

That's terrible! Are you expected to take vacation days when you're unwell?

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 Post subject: Re: "The Confidence Gap"--women in the workplace
PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 12:53 pm 
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The thing I think that really bothers me about your description of your situation, c, is the way this guy swooped down and took over negotiations from the other person. (Maybe I'm misreading that?) Since it's a small company, are you going to end up working with swoopy directly? Is that an appealing prospect at this point?

In terms of the actual negotiation, I think it's legit for you to stay firm on the message-- you are a quality scientist, you deserve the median at least, and it sounds like they can afford to pay it, they're just trying to convince you that you don't really need/want it. Yeah you do.

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 Post subject: Re: "The Confidence Gap"--women in the workplace
PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 12:55 pm 
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coldandsleepy wrote:
The thing I think that really bothers me about your description of your situation, c, is the way this guy swooped down and took over negotiations from the other person. (Maybe I'm misreading that?) Since it's a small company, are you going to end up working with swoopy directly? Is that an appealing prospect at this point?

In terms of the actual negotiation, I think it's legit for you to stay firm on the message-- you are a quality scientist, you deserve the median at least, and it sounds like they can afford to pay it, they're just trying to convince you that you don't really need/want it. Yeah you do.


^ All of this.

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 Post subject: Re: "The Confidence Gap"--women in the workplace
PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 3:15 pm 
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Oh and couroupita, I think you should not wait to call them, just call them and talk to them. And I think the concerns of C&S are valid but I also think it is one of the main players being a bit cheap or money conscious.

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 Post subject: Re: "The Confidence Gap"--women in the workplace
PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 4:18 pm 
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linanil wrote:
I can only thing of two options that they would say "ok" or "our first offer is our final offer" but really, I don't know of any company that offers their best offer as their first offer.

I've had job offers rescinded, so I think there are more than 2 options. But I think I'm the minority voice here and I think you've already said that they started the male employees where you're applying at a higher salary, so stick with your facts about median salary, etc. and if you're polite and they're reasonable you've nothing to lose and much to gain.


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 Post subject: Re: "The Confidence Gap"--women in the workplace
PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 6:19 pm 
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I think it is pretty rare for tech companies to rescind offers, I mean I can understand someone being stubborn. I also figure that if they are hiring a PhD chemist, they are looking for very specific qualities and if they chose someone, they want that someone. Them not hiring someone for few thousand dollars means them having to continue the search and that is time wasted.

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 Post subject: Re: "The Confidence Gap"--women in the workplace
PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 9:34 am 
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I agree. It's stressful dealing with people about important things when you don't know each other or what each other's expectations are. So congrats on asking for what you deserve couroupita. I'd be too timid, so reading this thread is good for me. I'm sure you'll get the good news soon.


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 Post subject: Re: "The Confidence Gap"--women in the workplace
PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 7:00 pm 
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I called the guy back and basically said that I wanted to take the position but needed him to meet me partway and what was the best he could offer. He said the two things he could do were to up the salary but reduce my stock, or keep my salary the same and increase stock. I went for stock and got 25% more, which means I have 0.5% of the company shares up from 0.4%. Doesn't sound like much but itfthe company does well it could be a good payout.

I do worry a little that he pushed the other guy aside but at least this time he didn't talk down to me and was pretty frank when I asked him to be. If it is a problem I might end up finding myself back in this thread. But, at the end of the conversation he said it's one of the more generous offers they've made so if that's true then I feel like I did a decent job advocating for myself.

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 Post subject: Re: "The Confidence Gap"--women in the workplace
PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 7:51 pm 
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You absolutely did a good job of advocating for yourself! Congrats on the job!

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 Post subject: Re: "The Confidence Gap"--women in the workplace
PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 8:20 pm 
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Yay! Congrats c!

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 Post subject: Re: "The Confidence Gap"--women in the workplace
PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 9:55 pm 
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Great job !!

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 Post subject: Re: "The Confidence Gap"--women in the workplace
PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 10:02 pm 
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Congratulations! What a great outcome!

Its really hard to negotiate for yourself, but I've noticed that when you do, often the people above you seem to just respect you more for getting the most you can, which makes sense, because it showcases the skills that make you most suitable for managing and working with others. Sometime money acts as a signifier of respect too - so hopefully he won't see you as young and have a better sense of your value.

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 Post subject: Re: "The Confidence Gap"--women in the workplace
PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 5:49 pm 
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Saw this piece in Slate and thought it fit in well here since we have been discussing how language in the workplace affects others' perception of our competence.

I haven't heard it yet, but the author was interviewed on npr and received feedback from listeners to cut the uptalk because it made her sound like she lacked confidence. This article is her response, suggesting it's not the manner of speaking that causedsbias but rather the group it's associated with (if that makes sense. The article says it better than I did!)

http://www.slate.com/blogs/lexicon_vall ... ously.html

Quote:
But even if women did uptalk more than men, we've all heard enough uptalk to know that its rising intonation doesn't indicate a question. No one's actually confused. So why should anyone have a problem with it? The thing is, this pastime of critiquing women’s speech is not limited to American English speakers. It’s easy to find these attitudes in any culture that devalues femininity and women.

Quote:
[E]mployers admit to actively punishing workers who use uptalk, and many women, especially women of color, simply can’t afford not to change their voice in order to gain respect. But just because sexism exists doesn't mean that the sexists are right about it: Women shouldn’t have to wear pantsuits to be treated like human beings, and we shouldn’t have to contort our voices to sound masculine (but not too masculine!) to make people hear us.

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 Post subject: Re: "The Confidence Gap"--women in the workplace
PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 10:14 pm 
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Hmm...I actually heard that interview on NPR and definitely noticed the uptalking. It really sounded like many of her statements were questions. I personally found it a bit grating, but since she was introduced as "Students Active for Ending Rape," I attributed her manner of speaking to youth rather than gender. What she was actually saying was quite intelligent, but I can see how someone might say that how she was speaking gave the impression of lacking confidence. (Not that I personally agree since I know uptalking is a thing and it actually has nothing to do with confidence).

I've heard young men speak the same way, and research has found that it's not just a female thing. So I'm not sure that it's right to say that uptalking is something women naturally do and that to try not to do it is to try to sound like a man and women shouldn't have to try to sound like men. It seems like sort of a false argument somehow. Of course language is a living thing that evolves, but there's also something to be said for having a clear differentiation between a declarative statement and a question.

That said, she probably does have a point about people criticizing the manner of women's speech as a means of devaluing their input.


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 Post subject: Re: "The Confidence Gap"--women in the workplace
PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 11:16 pm 
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I find uptalking sad, because I think it's a by-product of our society's inability to consider a woman's input valuable and worthwhile. Any time I encounter a child who does it, I do softly and kindly try and steer them to more declarative ways of speaking, and I flat out tell my female friends that they're doing it- most of the time, the women I know don't realize it.

So, I am going to be asking for a raise in January. I do at least three times as much work as my two predecessors, and I'm more efficient at it, to boot. I not only run the school, I manage the website and our social media. I am finding new ways to promote and get the word out for our school, and I have implemented new procedures to make us more efficient (and therefore make more money), among other things.

The problem is that I already make as much as the guy who created my job did on his exit, and I'm making what the woman in between him and myself made for her first year. They were salaried at this amount; I'm hourly. I may be going back to school in January. I've only officially been in this job for four months. So the idea of asking for more money and basically saying, "I'm better than the other two people that have held this job" strikes me as...not so nice.
The median income for the jobs I do (not a single job: I do what could be three full-time jobs) is significantly more than I make. Everyone I work with makes less than they should be and does more than in their job descriptions, but that doesn't mean I shouldn't stand up for my work.

I don't know what to ask for. I don't want to come off as totally nuts (there's no way they'd be able to pay me what the median income for my job is; very small company), but I am also in a position where I should make more money, and I won't even hear a word about a raise for at least another nine (or more) months.

I guess I just need the PPK to reassure me and give me some good talking points. This will be my first time ever asking for a raise.

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 Post subject: Re: "The Confidence Gap"--women in the workplace
PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 7:54 am 
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Well asking for a raise when you are already in the job is more difficult than asking for it when you take the job. With only being in the job for 4 months, what you would want to focus on higher level of responsibility. So you would say "I was hired at X amount to do this, but I am doing X, Y & Z which are a higher level of responsibility than the job I was hired to do". And it probably makes a difference that you are hourly because usually when you are hired to do X but have additional tasks, it is within the hours you are paid. So the focus would really not be that you are doing more but that your level of responsibility is beyond what you were hired in as.

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 Post subject: Re: "The Confidence Gap"--women in the workplace
PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 2:10 pm 
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Funny- after posting this, they gave everyone on staff a raise. Nothing really significant, but still.

So now I feel like an even bigger asparagus for asking for one! I guess I'll keep my head down and see what'll work.

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