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 Post subject: Re: 2016 US Election
PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2016 8:32 pm 
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"Hillary Clinton's national security advisers are a who's who of the warfare state."

https://theintercept.com/2016/09/08/hil ... are-state/

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 Post subject: Re: 2016 US Election
PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2016 9:13 pm 
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I thought that Charles Blow made some interesting points in the NYT.
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/22/opini ... .html?_r=0

His concerns about the Federal judges, including the Supreme Court, and the Attorney General are particularly compelling.

In other news, this Tweet from one of the producers at 538 made me laugh.
https://twitter.com/jodyavirgan/status/ ... 8672959488

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 Post subject: Re: 2016 US Election
PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2016 10:00 am 
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That editorial is good, but I think it fails to address what pretty much every person attempting to convince non/protest voters fails to address: a lot of these folks aren't necessarily protesting Clinton or Trump. Many people are not voting for or protesting the whole electoral system. In that context, the Supreme Court nominees, etc. are relatively short term setbacks when compared with what many folks feel is a rigged system that will only continue to push them further to the sidelines.

You can argue the merits of whether that type of protest is likely to be effective, but it seems that the Democrats especially are ignoring one of the major reasons for the protest and making it all about Clinton.

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 Post subject: Re: 2016 US Election
PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2016 11:39 am 
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This is the greatest/worst thing ever!

A (now-former!) Trump campaign coordinator in Ohio blames Obama for racism. It just started 8 years ago, you guys!

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... fore-obama

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 Post subject: Re: 2016 US Election
PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2016 11:42 am 
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I like the part where she says there are too many unwed babies.


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 Post subject: Re: 2016 US Election
PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2016 12:29 pm 
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Saw this on Twitter yesterday and thought it was great:

https://twitter.com/Lee_in_Iowa/status/ ... 1785939968


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 Post subject: Re: 2016 US Election
PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2016 7:52 pm 
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jordanpattern wrote:
That editorial is good, but I think it fails to address what pretty much every person attempting to convince non/protest voters fails to address: a lot of these folks aren't necessarily protesting Clinton or Trump. Many people are not voting for or protesting the whole electoral system. In that context, the Supreme Court nominees, etc. are relatively short term setbacks when compared with what many folks feel is a rigged system that will only continue to push them further to the sidelines.

You can argue the merits of whether that type of protest is likely to be effective, but it seems that the Democrats especially are ignoring one of the major reasons for the protest and making it all about Clinton.


Yeah, I get that JoPa. However, George H.W. Bush nominated Clarence Thomas to replace Thurgood Marshall on the court. That is not a short term setback. Reagan, I think, nominated Antonin Scalia to the court.
The rulings and opinions of those two lasted far longer than the term of the president who nominated them.

You can thank Bill Clinton for RBG.

I forever argue that it's not about buying into a cult of personality but that voting is instead an intensely practical matter.

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 Post subject: Re: 2016 US Election
PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2016 9:26 pm 
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This is my personal favorite case against protest votes.

https://medium.com/@cshirky/theres-no-s ... .yn19ts3k1

It speaks a lot more generally to why "protest voting" isn't doing what you think it's doing rather than making the case against any particular candidate.


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 Post subject: Re: 2016 US Election
PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2016 3:15 am 
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That's a really good article, thanks for posting.

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 Post subject: Re: 2016 US Election
PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2016 1:30 pm 
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There are a lot of delusions involved in voting. In fact, our electoral system (and all electoral systems serving a sizable population) offer you nothing more than "Whatever everyone else decides is ok by me" because there is simply no chance that your vote will be of any consequence. That's just a hard fact about the world, and all the attempts to overcome it are just squaring the circle.

The idea that only your preferences about the two major party candidates matter is just wrong--that doesn't matter, either. What matters is how we vote in aggregate, something that most of us don't have any real control over.

Watching people argue about wasting votes is like seeing someone find a penny on the street and then start talking about investment strategies.

None of that is to say that voting isn't important or serious.

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 Post subject: Re: 2016 US Election
PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2016 2:39 pm 
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Debate bingo anyone?
http://www.aauw.org/2016/09/07/play-deb ... with-aauw/

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 Post subject: Re: 2016 US Election
PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2016 2:42 pm 
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I think if people really want to protest the electoral system, they should start a grassroots movement aimed at changing it, instead of a third party. If enough people got on board, and protested in the streets with signs, staged sit-ins, etc., they might eventually, given enough momentum, be able to get the electoral system changed to a a multi-party system like a parliamentary one, and / or a system where the popular vote matters on the presidential level, rather than the swing states' election outcomes.

Not that that would be all roses either. One thing that this election has made evident is that if we had a parliamentary system right now, the white nationalists would have something like 30 seats in the parliament.


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 Post subject: Re: 2016 US Election
PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2016 1:53 am 
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The debate starts in about 18 hours. I'm terrified.

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 Post subject: Re: 2016 US Election
PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2016 3:09 am 
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LFL wrote:
Not that that would be all roses either. One thing that this election has made evident is that if we had a parliamentary system right now, the white nationalists would have something like 30 seats in the parliament.

I think that's probably preferable to the situation we're in now, where something like 40 senators and 160 congresspeople are all too happy to endorse an ethnonationalist simply because he's a member of their political party. That doesn't typically happen in multiparty electoral systems, where center right parties don't feel similar pressures to endorse far right views.

One of the standard arguments in favor of the two-party system is that is marginalizes fringe views. I don't regard that as desirable in any case, but this election illustrates and the downside of that arrangement--it's only true until the fringe capture one of the two parties, whereupon the party magnifies those views. Trump's nomination has normalized overtly racist political rhetoric, and that's thanks to the two-party system, not despite it.

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 Post subject: Re: 2016 US Election
PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2016 5:20 am 
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I'm so f-ing terrified I actually cannot get through my day anymore.

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 Post subject: Re: 2016 US Election
PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2016 7:14 am 
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I have zero respect for the third parties. If they actually cared about being viable and changing the system, we would see them campaigning their asparagi off for county clerkships, school board seats, state governments. Instead we see expensive play acting at being presidential candidates.

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 Post subject: Re: 2016 US Election
PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2016 8:12 am 
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Anyone know if the debate will be available to watch live online?

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 Post subject: Re: 2016 US Election
PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2016 8:42 am 
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Yes, you can stream it on YouTube and probably other places, too.


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 Post subject: Re: 2016 US Election
PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2016 8:56 am 
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Yes, basically every news outlet will stream it. Just pick any you like and check their website.
https://www.wired.com/2016/09/how-to-wa ... al-debate/


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 Post subject: Re: 2016 US Election
PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2016 9:38 am 
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FootFace wrote:
The debate starts in about 18 hours. I'm terrified.


I can't decide if I should try and go to one of the public screenings, or if I should watch it at home, clutching a handle of whisky and a pint of ice cream, or if I should just try to ignore it and catch the highlights tomorrow.

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 Post subject: Re: 2016 US Election
PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2016 10:44 am 
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jordanpattern wrote:
FootFace wrote:
The debate starts in about 18 hours. I'm terrified.


I can't decide if I should try and go to one of the public screenings, or if I should watch it at home, clutching a handle of whisky and a pint of ice cream, or if I should just try to ignore it and catch the highlights tomorrow.

I feel too anxious to actually be face to face with it. I might have to read a live blog while it's happening. (Also, the whisky, obviously.)


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 Post subject: Re: 2016 US Election
PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2016 2:33 pm 
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I wish tonight mattered. It's hard to keep hoping that people are good and can change when bias is so strong that watching your candidate prove he's awful doesn't even phase you. Trump could make up facts for every answer tonight, get obliterated in the "regular media" for his lies, and not lose a vote. Because most of his followers don't read mainstream media and the ones who do don't believe it when it disagrees with them anyway.


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 Post subject: Re: 2016 US Election
PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2016 3:49 pm 
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mumbles wrote:
LFL wrote:
Not that that would be all roses either. One thing that this election has made evident is that if we had a parliamentary system right now, the white nationalists would have something like 30 seats in the parliament.


I think that's probably preferable to the situation we're in now, where something like 40 senators and 160 congresspeople are all too happy to endorse an ethnonationalist simply because he's a member of their political party. That doesn't typically happen in multiparty electoral systems, where center right parties don't feel similar pressures to endorse far right views.


That doesn't typically happen here either, though. This is an atypical election. The real question is which system is superior over time.

I used to think I preferred the parliamentary system but the current election cycle has given me a taste of what it would be like to have the fringe of the right out in the open, with a party of some significance of their own as well as candidates for national office, and I can't say I'd like it. Especially since in a multiparty system, a sizable minority party can win all kinds of concessions from the centrist parties by agreeing to form a coalition government with them.

On the other hand, there are some definite advantages to a parliamentary system, such as the fact that governments can be dissolved early by parliamentary vote and voters aren't stuck with a truly awful government for an entire four (and sometimes eight) years as we were during the Bush Cheney years.


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 Post subject: Re: 2016 US Election
PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2016 6:00 pm 
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LFL wrote:

That doesn't typically happen here either, though. This is an atypical election. The real question is which system is superior over time.

I used to think I preferred the parliamentary system but the current election cycle has given me a taste of what it would be like to have the fringe of the right out in the open, with a party of some significance of their own as well as candidates for national office, and I can't say I'd like it. Especially since in a multiparty system, a sizable minority party can win all kinds of concessions from the centrist parties by agreeing to form a coalition government with them.

On the other hand, there are some definite advantages to a parliamentary system, such as the fact that governments can be dissolved early by parliamentary vote and voters aren't stuck with a truly awful government for an entire four (and sometimes eight) years as we were during the Bush Cheney years.


Those on the right or left would vote for the candidate that is most left leaning or most right leaning or they would opt out of the political conversation completely. The Republicans have had to pander to religious viewpoints in order to have a chance in the elections. Not that I want people like Jill Stein who are full of woo but I rather if the religious right was a fringe group rather than a primary group then we wouldn't have to worry so much about things like abortion rights being taken away. We'd also have a stronger political voice for those that are anti-war and anti-corporations as people.

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 Post subject: Re: 2016 US Election
PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2016 12:14 am 
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linanil wrote:
LFL wrote:

That doesn't typically happen here either, though. This is an atypical election. The real question is which system is superior over time.

I used to think I preferred the parliamentary system but the current election cycle has given me a taste of what it would be like to have the fringe of the right out in the open, with a party of some significance of their own as well as candidates for national office, and I can't say I'd like it. Especially since in a multiparty system, a sizable minority party can win all kinds of concessions from the centrist parties by agreeing to form a coalition government with them.

On the other hand, there are some definite advantages to a parliamentary system, such as the fact that governments can be dissolved early by parliamentary vote and voters aren't stuck with a truly awful government for an entire four (and sometimes eight) years as we were during the Bush Cheney years.


Those on the right or left would vote for the candidate that is most left leaning or most right leaning or they would opt out of the political conversation completely. The Republicans have had to pander to religious viewpoints in order to have a chance in the elections. Not that I want people like Jill Stein who are full of woo but I rather if the religious right was a fringe group rather than a primary group then we wouldn't have to worry so much about things like abortion rights being taken away. We'd also have a stronger political voice for those that are anti-war and anti-corporations as people.


That might hold true in this election, which is atypical, but in most elections, it is the centrist candidates and parties that draw the most votes. It is absolutely true that there would be a stronger anti-war and anti-corporations voice if a party like the Green Party had seats, but on the corporate side, the Liberatarians' voice would perhaps outweigh them. What would be most worrying to me would be the racist, xenophobic party that could give voice to that kind of discourse much like Trump has, not just in an atypical election but on a regular basis.

There's a valid argument to be made that racist voters exist either way, and a multi-party system would only bring them out in the open. But I think there's something to be said for not giving them the kind of legitimacy that a party devoted to that kind of agenda could provide them with. It may be foolish of me, but I prefer not to be confronted with evidence of hatred on a regular basis, as has been happening lately. I like to think of most people as kinder and less hateful; it helps me go about my life without being paralyzed by fear, whether or not it's true.

With all that said, I think a multiparty system could be very beneficial in some ways. More people might become politically active and participate in elections if there were candidates and parties that came closer to representing their views. I'm not trying to argue that a two party system is better-- for most of my life I've held the opposite view and it is only the rise of the so-called Alt Right that has made me question it. I'm on the fence about which system is better now.


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