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 Post subject: The Thread About Law Enforcement
PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2016 11:49 am 
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I debated putting this in the Square but although this is a 'local' news event, I think it's definitely part of the larger conversation we're having in America right now (or should be having) about police abuse of power and systemic corruption.

I wanted to start a thread to discuss after seeing the headline that Oakland's interim chief of police was ousted this week- I've kind of lost count of how many chiefs that is in the OPD this month alone- four? In the last five years, including Occupy, forget about keeping count altogether. This is the culmination of many, maaaaany years of scandals, abuse of power, wrongful death suits, but the tipping point (at least for this current story) is a sex scandal in which many OPD officers (and now some SFPD officers) are being connected with a sex worker who was underage at the time. And by 'connected with' I mean 'had sex with'.

This is in addition to a background filled with the Rough Riders, Scott Olsen, the greatest amount of civil-rights settlement payouts by any California law enforcement agency, and lots of other fun little things like drunken home invasions.

I currently live in Berkeley, but very much consider Oakland to be part of my community, and live less than two blocks away from Oakland city limits. This close to San Francisco there aren't any greenbelts between cities so much as neighborhoods where city limits run willy-nilly between neighboring houses or down the centers of major streets. Obviously I have enormous privilege as a straight cis white woman but the culture still terrifies me, even if I have no involvement as either a suspect or a victim of an alleged crime.

I'm not sure what else to say, except... discuss? How are the cops in your city? I guess I want to continue the great discussion we had going on the roles and responsibilities of police in our society that we began in the Ferguson thread.

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 Post subject: Re: The Thread About Law Enforcement
PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2016 12:48 pm 
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Thanks for the thread! The Newark PD is undergoing an overhaul because of rampant corruption.

Quote:
The Justice Department announced today it has reached a comprehensive settlement with the city of Newark, New Jersey, that will bring wide-ranging reforms and changes to the Newark Police Department (NPD). The agreement, which is subject to court approval, resolves the department’s findings that NPD has engaged in a pattern or practice of unconstitutional stops, searches, arrests, use of excessive force and theft by officers in violation of the First, Fourth and 14th Amendments. The proposed consent decree also resolves the department’s findings that NPD’s law enforcement practices had a disparate impact on minorities in Newark.


https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice- ... partment-s

I haven't had any issues with police myself recently, but one of my South Asian friends was harassed after a drunk driver hit his car when he was stopped at a red light. The police arrested the drunk driver, and had my friend do a field sobriety test. He passed it but they still took him in and threw him in a cell. His wife (who is white) had to call a friend who was a white cop to convince them to let him out.

And another friend was arrested for trying to stop the cops beating her Latino boyfriend after stopping him for a routine traffic stop. They also said he was driving drunk and after he passed the sobriety test, he must have said something that upset them because they started to beat on him. She had been in the car and jumped out to try and stop them, so they arrested her and threw her in jail. Her boyfriend had to be taken to the hospital and is facing a lot of jail time for made up crimes.

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Last edited by Tofulish on Sat Jun 18, 2016 12:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The Thread About Law Enforcement
PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2016 12:56 pm 
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Oh and this isn't recent, but the cop who arrested me (and admitted to me he knew I hadn't done anything), was kicked off the force for faking his own shooting. He shot himself in the leg - but did so in the parking lot of a bank with cameras in the parking lot. He claimed he was shot by criminals, because he wanted to get off the force.

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 Post subject: Re: The Thread About Law Enforcement
PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2016 3:39 pm 
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I mostly like what I've seen of the police in schools. I have no real idea how this translates out into the neighborhoods, but in the schools at least, they are making a huge effort to build positive relationships.

They teach really good criminal justice programs and do mentoring. The police assigned to the building seem to know everybody's names and who scored a basketball point or who had art posted somewhere. It's pretty impressive--this is a BIG school.

When it comes to gang issues, I think they suck. I know it's a tough job, but I don't think they care who they round up. We have a huge MS-13 problem and a lot of undocumented kids. As far as I can tell, if they get a kid with a certain very common and probably fake name that is on a gang lists they don't ask too many questions.

This year, I've had a lot of police in and out of the classroom. Most seem pretty great with the kids and caring, but a few are just total jackasses. I'm guessing that's how it goes--you can have 10 great officers who do a really hard job and then 2 who fork it all up for everybody else.

Eta: I think they have made an effort to diversify the force here over the years and that has probably helped. The demographics haven't been too far off the schools (which are highly diverse).

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 Post subject: Re: The Thread About Law Enforcement
PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2016 5:30 pm 
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I grew up with a fear and distrust of law enforcement that has never left me. I will say that in my city, the police have been trying to take positive steps. There has been a lot of teenage crime, mostly black kids. They have been trying to work with the high schools to reduce loitering and work with the parents as well. I'm glad they are trying non violent methods rather than forceful methods. But I still don't trust them

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 Post subject: Re: The Thread About Law Enforcement
PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2016 11:23 am 
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It's definitely an issue that I've come to appreciate in more nuanced ways over the past few years. LW's post reminded me that I now have friends with young kids who have to negotiate their kids' relationships with police. I was just talking a few weeks ago with my friend who has two kids under 5, and is in a fraught position- she's certainly aware that this kind of brutality and corruption is rampant, but at the same time, she doesn't want to raise her children to be afraid of the police. And that's understandable! Children shouldn't be afraid of the police- but at what point do the police stop seeing them as 'children' and start seeing them as suspects? I imagine it's similar to a lot of women's experiences of going through puberty- you don't realize that you've changed until the reactions and perceptions of others to you become painfully clear. I think this question is especially worrisome for her because her kids have brown skin, and statistically that makes them that much more vulnerable to police abuse and violence. They're already doing all they can to beat the odds- they live in a small, quiet, liberal town with increasing diversity. But I still worry for them.

Growing up (in the same small town), I was definitely taught police are friends, like I imagine most suburban white kids are. And that's the ideal- they should be friends. It wasn't until I moved to Philadelphia for college that I first became immersed in the very concept of police brutality. Suddenly I was living cheek-to-jowl with communities who were severely affected by police violence and misconduct. Not to mention the PPD are among the worst of the worst as far as misconduct, cronyism, and corruption goes. Even though I was rarely in any danger myself, just seeing how "business as usual" was conducted really opened my eyes and encouraged me to look beyond my own personal experiences for a litmus test of how law enforcement can and should interact with the public.

Of course now I work for attorneys who specialize in criminal defense. I read a lot of police reports and see a lot of dashcam videos on a regular basis and I am not impressed. Granted, I may be getting a skewed sample. But I kind of wonder how skewed it really is.

I do think there are good cops out there who genuinely want to help their community. And I get why people say "the good cops should report the bad cops." But it's not as simple as that when the entire culture, from the academy to the leadership to the union, is corrupt. How can you report misconduct within the ranks when there's three captains in one week? I can't blame people for assuming the default is that the uniform you see is an enemy, not a friend. Like I mentioned, I have no personal experience with police violence (I've never even been arrested), but after everything I've seen and witnessed, I still tense up around cops and get a feeling around them like they're a wild animal I shouldn't look in the eye, because they could snap at any time.

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 Post subject: Re: The Thread About Law Enforcement
PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2016 2:59 pm 
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I grew up in a violent household and when I was little the cops were kind when they came on DV calls. Then I turned fourteen and had my dad call the cops on me after he hit me. They threatened to take me to jail (or Bellevue, both were threatened) despite my having the beginnings of a black eye. So after that I didn't trust them. Then when I was homeless they just generally ticketed me for violations and harassed me when I wasn't bothering anyone. So more distrust and dislike.

In general the NYPD has had problems with the black and Latino communities, like stop and frisk and the Eric Garner case. I don't see that changing anytime soon.

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 Post subject: Re: The Thread About Law Enforcement
PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2016 3:30 pm 
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I think that the cops did try to be friendly somewhat when I was young but I lived in a high crime, gang heavy non-white suburban neighborhood where the perception was that cops didn't care. People knew that if they called the cops, that it'd be hours before they arrived so we kind of figured out that we had to take care of ourselves. Also it didn't help that the INS had a heavy presence in our neighborhood and neighbors could disappear in an instant. I also was friends with people whose parents were drug dealers or addicted to heavy drugs which also helped develop the mistrust. We didn't have any brutality that I was aware of but there certainly lots of profiling such as male friends I knew being followed by cops as we got older. I can't even imagine how is feel if I grew up where my own family and friends were beaten or subject to other physical harassment.

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 Post subject: Re: The Thread About Law Enforcement
PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2016 5:11 pm 
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My grandfather was law enforcement (first a police officer, then a judge). He was a nice, kindhearted, spiritual vegetarian man who would go out on Christmas and take soup to the homeless. I also had good experiences with police when I was sexually assaulted and the guy was being charged.

Despite all of this, I have the same visceral reaction Erika mentions above - I am constantly tense when I am in their presence and want to get away from them as quickly as I can. And this is me as a white person. I can't fathom what it would be like to be a PoC and know that people in your community are routinely picked on, assaulted, etc. by police.

I don't trust them even though I know there's probably some out there who are kindhearted veg*ns like my grandpa was. It's too risky to take the chance to trust them to find out what kind they might be.

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 Post subject: Re: The Thread About Law Enforcement
PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2016 8:16 pm 
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I have no doubt that many cops are honorable people who genuinely want to help their communities. But I also think many cops are creeps who get off on carrying a gun and a badge and intimidating people.

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 Post subject: Re: The Thread About Law Enforcement
PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2016 9:43 am 
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I have seen too many police reports that have been altered, that don't match the car footage, etc. to trust a cop at first blush.
I grew up with small town officers, half of whom were good and the other half were pulling over high school girls and demand blow jobs.

It's a job that seems to naturally attract power seekers. Either in the "I want to be a hero" sense, or "I want to demand respect sense."

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 Post subject: Re: The Thread About Law Enforcement
PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2016 3:09 pm 
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linanil wrote:
I think that the cops did try to be friendly somewhat when I was young but I lived in a high crime, gang heavy non-white suburban neighborhood where the perception was that cops didn't care. People knew that if they called the cops, that it'd be hours before they arrived so we kind of figured out that we had to take care of ourselves. Also it didn't help that the INS had a heavy presence in our neighborhood and neighbors could disappear in an instant. I also was friends with people whose parents were drug dealers or addicted to heavy drugs which also helped develop the mistrust.

This is my experience as well. Never felt like cops cared, wouldn't respond to calls even when there was gang violence right outside my house until hours later once everything was over. When I would be walking down the street in other parts of town I would get hassled for small things like jaywalking or not having my dog on a short enough leash so I always felt like cops didn't care about my safety and were mostly around to give me a hard time. I don't remember hearing stories about police brutality in my neighborhood, though I wouldn't be surprised if it happened.

When I got to college and grad school the schools were located in wealthy areas and I was never hassled. It was such a shocker! In fact, when I was caught for minor traffic violations (like California stops), I would get let off with a warning once I told them I was a student at Prestigious University. However, my south Asian friend who was also a student and drove an old clunker was constantly pulled over for no reason at all.

That being said, my cousin is a high up in the LAPD and is a nice guy. I don't know how he is on the job or if he is fair, I only know that he was a real sweetheart when he started and after decades on the force he has become really hardened. I'm sure it's a stressful job.

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 Post subject: Re: The Thread About Law Enforcement
PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 7:24 pm 
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couroupita wrote:
That being said, my cousin is a high up in the LAPD and is a nice guy. I don't know how he is on the job or if he is fair, I only know that he was a real sweetheart when he started and after decades on the force he has become really hardened. I'm sure it's a stressful job.


No doubt. I do have huge sympathy for cops there, in that it's a job that comes with a hell of a lot of hazards. I can definitely see how someone who started out wanting to assist their community could become jaded over years of seeing crime, mental illness, poverty, and the ways in which those cycles repeat themselves viciously due to ineffective public services. I have a slight glimmer of an idea because my dad was a firefighter for 33 years, and I can tell he was traumatized by his career. Generally speaking, he's a welcome face to see when someone calls 911, so I can only imagine dealing with the psychological fallout of seeing people at the worst moments of their lives while also being probably the most hated person there. So yeah, it's tough- I'm not making excuses, by any means, but I can see how our system fails multiple people on multiple fronts on both sides of the criminal justice system.

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 Post subject: Re: The Thread About Law Enforcement
PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 11:01 am 
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Welp.

This really has to stop.


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 Post subject: Re: The Thread About Law Enforcement
PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 11:14 am 
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I don't even know what to say about it anymore. :(

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 Post subject: Re: The Thread About Law Enforcement
PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 11:17 am 
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Jesus Christ. I only just yesterday learned who Alton Sterling is, and now this morning there's a report about Philando Castile, who was shot and killed last night in MSP/Twin Cities, in front of his girlfriend and her child.

This is disgusting. It's got to stop. Black skin is not reasonable justification to fear for your life. Black skin is not a weapon.

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 Post subject: Re: The Thread About Law Enforcement
PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 11:28 am 
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He had a registered firearm and told the officer he had it, just like he was supposed to. What on earth should he have done differently?


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 Post subject: Re: The Thread About Law Enforcement
PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 3:51 pm 
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My co-worker and I were watching the videos this morning of both shootings/murders. From what I could see, Castile was sitting in his car with his seat belt on and was shot a number of times. How in the hell can you claim anything beyond racism at this point? How can people excuse this behavior, these murders, over a hundred times in one year? A man selling CD's and asking why police officers are trying to arrest him is tackled and thrown onto a car, pinned down and then shot 6 times. HOW CAN YOU DENY THIS? HOW CAN YOU EXCUSE THIS? He had a gun, which was IN HIS POCKET and his hands were no where near it, they were pinned under a cop. You can see in the video them pull the gun out of his pocket while he's lying there dying. How can you see something like that and say it's okay?

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 Post subject: Re: The Thread About Law Enforcement
PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 8:14 pm 
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... so any minute now, good patriots will come streaming out of the woodwork with their Trump hats and their weeping eagle muscle tees to unrelentingly take on the corruption of government agents persecuting Americans who are exercising their God-given 2nd Amendment rights to carry guns, right?

No?

How strange, I wonder why that could be.

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 Post subject: Re: The Thread About Law Enforcement
PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 8:17 pm 
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On the radio they said killings have increased since 2015, when attention was really directed towards killings by police. They said better training and resources for training are needed to decrease this rate. How are we as citizens supposed to pressure law enforcement to change their policies? It seems like nothing we do is effecting change. I feel so helpless and furious.

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 Post subject: Re: The Thread About Law Enforcement
PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 8:39 pm 
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fork. I am reading about Castile and a summary of the video his girlfriend shot and this:

Quote:
After Reynolds is detained, her four-year-old daughter can be heard comforting her. “It’s OK mommy,” she says.


My stomach just dropped reading that. No little girl should ever have to go through that.

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 Post subject: Re: The Thread About Law Enforcement
PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 9:16 pm 
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I have so many words, and so few words. But mostly I just want to throat punch the people who are still on the "all lives matter" train. Thankfully, these are not my friends that I'm seeing this from, but generally friends of friends. How people can continue to deny the problem is astounding.

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 Post subject: Re: The Thread About Law Enforcement
PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 9:30 pm 
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Yeah, my friend's aunt "corrected" her Black Lives Matter post to remind her that "all" lives matter. I almost replied to her, but my friend went ahead and took her out herself.

Yeah, all lives forking matter, but we're not acting like they do, are we? ARE WE?? If you don't see that black lives are assigned less value and that they are being MURDERED in the streets by people in positions of authority, you're covering your eyes and your ears and you live in a dream world.


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 Post subject: Re: The Thread About Law Enforcement
PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 10:49 pm 
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10 police officers were shot tonight at a Dallas protest. 3 have died, some remain in critical condition.

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 Post subject: Re: The Thread About Law Enforcement
PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 11:57 pm 
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