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 Post subject: Two congressmen resolve to carry guns
PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 10:14 pm 
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http://content.usatoday.com/communities/onpolitics/post/2011/01/gabrielle-giffords-shooting-congress-guns-/1

I don't know how I feel about this.

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 Post subject: Re: Members of congress resolve to carry guns
PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 10:17 pm 
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Could you imagine how many people would have gotten killed if everyone had pulled guns and fired after the gunman did?

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 Post subject: Re: Members of congress resolve to carry guns
PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 10:18 pm 
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"We've decided to carry guns!" Really, congresspeople? This is what you've chosen to take from this tragedy?

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 Post subject: Re: Members of congress resolve to carry guns
PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 10:21 pm 
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Oh...uh...oh my. How does this work exactly?


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 Post subject: Re: Members of congress resolve to carry guns
PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 11:01 pm 
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Editing the thread title to be a little more accurate.


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 Post subject: Re: Two congressmen resolve to carry guns
PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 11:05 pm 
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Because that's the solution.

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 Post subject: Re: Two congressmen resolve to carry guns
PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 11:12 pm 
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Really? That's what they took away from this event? Wow. Sure, carry a gun if you want, awesome, thats your right. But there's just a little bit more to it than that guys. Just a bit.


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 Post subject: Re: Two congressmen resolve to carry guns
PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 11:25 pm 
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I think we should legalize nuclear weapons for individuals. If rogue nations like north korea are going to have them no matter what, shouldn't good guys like me be able to protect ourselves? I'm pretty sure the second amendment says that too.

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 Post subject: Re: Two congressmen resolve to carry guns
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 12:39 am 
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vegimator wrote:
I think we should legalize nuclear weapons for individuals. If rogue nations like north korea are going to have them no matter what, shouldn't good guys like me be able to protect ourselves? I'm pretty sure the second amendment says that too.


And just imagine how quickly the AZ shooter could have been stopped if the store clerk had set off a nuclear weapon! I always sleep with one under my pillow.


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 Post subject: Re: Members of congress resolve to carry guns
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 1:02 am 
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Tofulish wrote:
Could you imagine how many people would have gotten killed if everyone had pulled guns and fired after the gunman did?

something like this?


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 Post subject: Re: Two congressmen resolve to carry guns
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 8:06 am 
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I feel like this is a common reaction after a shooting. Well, maybe not common, but not uncommon. For example, after the 2007 shooting at NIU (a school in Illinois), there was discussion about how, if students were allowed to carry guns like some are in other states, maybe the shooting could have been avoided, or the shooter could have been taken down sooner.

I don't think that people think about the repercussions of carrying guns, such as, you know, improper handling, and more deaths occurring. I think people just get scared after an incident like this and think that a gun is the answer. The logic is: well if the shooter had a gun, and I had a gun, then this whole thing might not have happened... right.


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 Post subject: Re: Two congressmen resolve to carry guns
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:38 am 
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One of the things we were told when they legalized concealed carry without a permit here in Arizona was that we'd be safer because all the "good guys" would have guns. It just gets easier and easier for everybody with evil in their heart to get guns, but we're never safer. Where were all those awesome shots just waiting to draw their guns and stop danger on Saturday?

I see people carrying guns everywhere. I do not feel safer.

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 Post subject: Re: Two congressmen resolve to carry guns
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 11:04 am 
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I had this conservative boss guy once, and he told me that he wished he'd had a gun on 9/11.

I don't think logic even enters into it. For some people, guns are just security blankets.

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 Post subject: Re: Two congressmen resolve to carry guns
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 11:06 am 
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He would have shot the planes out of the sky!

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 Post subject: Re: Members of congress resolve to carry guns
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 11:19 am 
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Tofulish wrote:
Could you imagine how many people would have gotten killed if everyone had pulled guns and fired after the gunman did?

This is what I think about. I really just think guns give many people a false sense of security.

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 Post subject: Re: Two congressmen resolve to carry guns
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 11:21 am 
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janejellyroll wrote:
One of the things we were told when they legalized concealed carry without a permit here in Arizona was that we'd be safer because all the "good guys" would have guns. It just gets easier and easier for everybody with evil in their heart to get guns, but we're never safer. Where were all those awesome shots just waiting to draw their guns and stop danger on Saturday?

He was almost shooting the unarmed man who was wrestling the gun away from Loughner. I'm not saying Zamudio isn't a hero. He ran [i]towards[i] gunfire. It's just that they all managed to get the gun away from Loughner without using a weapon, and they were lucky Zamudio didn't shoot any bystanders by accident.


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 Post subject: Re: Two congressmen resolve to carry guns
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 11:36 am 
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mollyjade wrote:
janejellyroll wrote:
One of the things we were told when they legalized concealed carry without a permit here in Arizona was that we'd be safer because all the "good guys" would have guns. It just gets easier and easier for everybody with evil in their heart to get guns, but we're never safer. Where were all those awesome shots just waiting to draw their guns and stop danger on Saturday?

He was almost shooting the unarmed man who was wrestling the gun away from Loughner. I'm not saying Zamudio isn't a hero. He ran [i]towards[i] gunfire. It's just that they all managed to get the gun away from Loughner without using a weapon, and they were lucky Zamudio didn't shoot any bystanders by accident.


I actually agree with you. I was responding more to the concept that we're all safer with guns -- that is one of the key arguments that people use when trying to relax any sort of restriction on guns, such as the recent change in Arizona that allows people to carry concealed weapons without a permit. More and more guns -- I personally don't feel safer than I did before.

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 Post subject: Re: Two congressmen resolve to carry guns
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 12:00 pm 
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janejellyroll wrote:
mollyjade wrote:
janejellyroll wrote:
One of the things we were told when they legalized concealed carry without a permit here in Arizona was that we'd be safer because all the "good guys" would have guns. It just gets easier and easier for everybody with evil in their heart to get guns, but we're never safer. Where were all those awesome shots just waiting to draw their guns and stop danger on Saturday?

He was almost shooting the unarmed man who was wrestling the gun away from Loughner. I'm not saying Zamudio isn't a hero. He ran [i]towards[i] gunfire. It's just that they all managed to get the gun away from Loughner without using a weapon, and they were lucky Zamudio didn't shoot any bystanders by accident.


I actually agree with you. I was responding more to the concept that we're all safer with guns -- that is one of the key arguments that people use when trying to relax any sort of restriction on guns, such as the recent change in Arizona that allows people to carry concealed weapons without a permit. More and more guns -- I personally don't feel safer than I did before.

I was (attempting) to agree with you, too. Carrying a gun didn't help in this situation, and it actually put more bystanders in danger.


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 Post subject: Re: Two congressmen resolve to carry guns
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 12:11 pm 
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amandabear wrote:
Because that's the solution.


Another example of calm rational thinking on the part of our elected officials.

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 Post subject: Re: Two congressmen resolve to carry guns
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 12:19 pm 
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Solving gun violence with more guns? This is absurd. Our elected officials shouldn't be sending the message that you need a gun to be safe. If anything, our politicians should be encouraging stricter gun laws, not more guns.

The concealed weapons law is crepe. It seemed like right after the law went into effect everyone wanted to walk around with their guns on their holster because they CAN. That did not make me feel safe at all. Shockingly, it made me feel very unsafe.

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 Post subject: Re: Two congressmen resolve to carry guns
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 12:40 pm 
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People have the right to protect themselves. High profile folks, whether movie stars or politicians, are people, too. They get stalked and targeted much more frequently than your average person. I don't blame them for wanting some line of self-defense besides whatever they've already relied on, which in Giffords' case, unfortunately failed.

Tofulish... your comment assumes that bystanders with guns would have shot randomly into the crowd. I don't buy that. I think an important part of gun ownership, much like car ownership, is responsibility. You do not point your gun at a person who you are not prepared to shoot. You do not take an indiscriminate shot, you pull the trigger only if you have to and only if you are going to hit your target.

None of the above means I am for no gun control. I am not certain what background checks and waiting periods I would personally advocate, this isn't an area I'm well-versed in. I still think that such measures won't stop the wrong people from getting weapons by any means necessary, but I don't think that means the answer is to have no measures. That some people will get behind the wheel without a valid license or insurance doesn't mean we shouldn't still require it for those who intend to drive legally.

(I am aware that a car is for transport and that a gun is always a weapon, but I think the analogy still applies.)


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 Post subject: Re: Two congressmen resolve to carry guns
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 1:28 pm 
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Zamudio almost shot a bystander. It takes very specific training to be able to decide whom to shoot in a chaotic situation like this. It's very hard for someone with military or police training to do. It's even harder for the average person. You can be responsible and still screw this up, which is why guns should be much harder to buy.


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 Post subject: Re: Two congressmen resolve to carry guns
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 1:37 pm 
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BFH wrote:
People have the right to protect themselves. High profile folks, whether movie stars or politicians, are people, too. They get stalked and targeted much more frequently than your average person. I don't blame them for wanting some line of self-defense besides whatever they've already relied on, which in Giffords' case, unfortunately failed.

Tofulish... your comment assumes that bystanders with guns would have shot randomly into the crowd. I don't buy that. I think an important part of gun ownership, much like car ownership, is responsibility. You do not point your gun at a person who you are not prepared to shoot. You do not take an indiscriminate shot, you pull the trigger only if you have to and only if you are going to hit your target.

None of the above means I am for no gun control. I am not certain what background checks and waiting periods I would personally advocate, this isn't an area I'm well-versed in. I still think that such measures won't stop the wrong people from getting weapons by any means necessary, but I don't think that means the answer is to have no measures. That some people will get behind the wheel without a valid license or insurance doesn't mean we shouldn't still require it for those who intend to drive legally.

(I am aware that a car is for transport and that a gun is always a weapon, but I think the analogy still applies.)


I'd be less opposed to congresspeople acquiring guns in the wake of events like the shooting of Giffords if they were also doing things like taking self defense training or otherwise beefing up their personal security in other ways. I feel like the way people often treat guns, and the way the media largely portrays them, is as a security blanket (like others have said upthread). Simply purchasing a gun will not solve any kind of security problem, but I don't necessarily have such a problem with a congressperson acquiring a gun as part of a comprehensive security plan. That is, it's the plan that's important, not the buying of the gun.

That is, I sort of agree with BFH in that I can understand a desire for an enhanced ability to protect oneself in the face of events like those of this last weekend, but at the same time, I don't buy that guns are a sort of "magic bullet" (sorry) for personal security. I also generally am not a gun fan, so I prefer to see less of them out there, but if I had crazy people targeting me, I might consider what I could do to improve my security as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Two congressmen resolve to carry guns
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 2:12 pm 
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If a killer is specifically targeting you as a member of Congress and s/he pulls out a gun and shoots you in the head first(as apparently happened this weekend), how is carrying a gun personally going to help you? There is no way you'll be able to respond unless you've got Wyatt Earp-style drawdown skills.

This is not a solution.

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 Post subject: Re: Two congressmen resolve to carry guns
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 2:30 pm 
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BFH wrote:
I think an important part of gun ownership, much like car ownership, is responsibility. You do not point your gun at a person who you are not prepared to shoot. You do not take an indiscriminate shot, you pull the trigger only if you have to and only if you are going to hit your target.

What mechanisms exist to enforce that responsibility with respect to gun ownership? Keep in mind recent events, which suggest that someone who probably has a serious mental disorder can walk into a gun store, purchase a gun, and then murder six or more people without encountering any serious impediments.

In my view, two members of Congress declaring that they intend to arm themselves does not evince responsible gun ownership. It looks like more of a dick measuring contest.

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