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 Post subject: 8 out of 10 Americans believe Prayer Saved Giffords
PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 12:50 am 
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http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninsca ... merica.php

I guess if we had to admit that what saved her life was really good healthcare, and the fact that she had insurance to pay for it, everyone would want universal healthcare.

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 Post subject: Re: 8 out of 10 Americans believe Prayer Saved Giffords
PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 2:00 am 
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The other two are disappointed that prayer didn't kill her.

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 Post subject: Re: 8 out of 10 Americans believe Prayer Saved Giffords
PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 2:16 am 
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Color me shocked that most people that vote on Fox online polls believe that.

Personally, I don't really understand how she survived, but I suspect it has something to do with her astrological sign.

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 Post subject: Re: 8 out of 10 Americans believe Prayer Saved Giffords
PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 6:31 am 
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Prove that it didn't!

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 Post subject: Re: 8 out of 10 Americans believe Prayer Saved Giffords
PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 8:44 am 
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She got shot in the head. Chance, luck, or whatever your worldview calls it had something to do with her survival. It's too early in her recovery to know if it was good luck or bad luck, though.


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 Post subject: Re: 8 out of 10 Americans believe Prayer Saved Giffords
PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 8:50 am 
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mollyjade wrote:
She got shot in the head. Chance, luck, or whatever your worldview calls it had something to do with her survival.


Totally.

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 Post subject: Re: 8 out of 10 Americans believe Prayer Saved Giffords
PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 9:16 am 
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Tofulish wrote:
I guess if we had to admit that what saved her life was really good healthcare, and the fact that she had insurance to pay for it, everyone would want universal healthcare.


EXACTLY! Meanwhile, the GOP is doing their best to destroy the little scrap of health care improvement we finally got last year...


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 Post subject: Re: 8 out of 10 Americans believe Prayer Saved Giffords
PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 9:26 am 
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http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/01 ... n/#content

Read these comments right now, it's like going to the zoo!


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 Post subject: Re: 8 out of 10 Americans believe Prayer Saved Giffords
PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 9:32 am 
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Quote:
Personally, I don't really understand how she survived.


Really really good medical care? I can imagine the surgeons being told to do whatever needed to be done - even if for someone else they would have let the person die.

Also, there is such a difference in the care that is available to a white, wealthy Congresswoman married to an astronaut than is available to people of color, the poor etc. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/05/healt ... ities.html

I also find it offensive to think that prayer saved her, because it implies that people didn't pray hard enough for the other victims.

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 Post subject: Re: 8 out of 10 Americans believe Prayer Saved Giffords
PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 9:42 am 
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what saved her was someone with medical training providing quick care and putting pressure on the wound.


And jesus


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 Post subject: Re: 8 out of 10 Americans believe Prayer Saved Giffords
PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 9:49 am 
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GuiltyofBeingSprite wrote:
what saved her was someone with medical training providing quick care and putting pressure on the wound.


I think it was taking the pressure off her brain by removing portions of her skull

GuiltyofBeingSprite wrote:
And jesus


I wonder whether the fact that Gabby Giffords identifies as Jewish affects people's belief that Jesus saved her. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gabrielle_Giffords

I also thought it was interesting: Gabrielle Giffords is a Woman and why that matters

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 Post subject: Re: 8 out of 10 Americans believe Prayer Saved Giffords
PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 10:16 am 
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I'm sick of 8 out of 10 Americans.

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 Post subject: Re: 8 out of 10 Americans believe Prayer Saved Giffords
PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 10:31 am 
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Tofulish wrote:
I also find it offensive to think that prayer saved her, because it implies that people didn't pray hard enough for the other victims.


I believe that prayer can have a real effect because people believe in it, not because a deity will intervene if you ask really, really nicely.

Also, I think it's really offensive when people say, "God does everything for a reason." 1) Yay! You just removed yourself/all involved persons/humanity from any culpability whatsoever! 2) What reason, exactly? To be a dick?

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 Post subject: Re: 8 out of 10 Americans believe Prayer Saved Giffords
PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 10:37 am 
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Fee wrote:
Color me shocked that most people that vote on Fox online polls believe that.

I know! Quelle surprise!
Tofulish wrote:
...there is such a difference in the care that is available to a white, wealthy Congresswoman married to an astronaut than is available to people of color, the poor etc. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/05/healt ... ities.html

'Struth. I'm very happy that she's recovering, but the fact remains that her position (and the spotlight under which her care was obviously placed) ensured that everything short of supernatural means - and that, too, if they could have located someone with actual magical powers - would be done to save her. This is not necessarily the case when Johnny Average Joe gets shot in the head.
Tofulish wrote:
I also find it offensive to think that prayer saved her, because it implies that people didn't pray hard enough for the other victims.

Well, obviously. I mean, there's no special "American Story of Love and Strength" in the deaths of some random, ordinary, boring people who just picked the wrong Saturday to do their grocery shopping. I mean, they weren't even congresswomen, or astronauts, or anything. And that nine-year-old girl? Psshh! What the hell did she ever accomplish? God doesn't have time for nobodies!
http://blogs.abcnews.com/pressroom/2011 ... -stor.html

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Last edited by Desdemona on Fri Jan 21, 2011 10:49 am, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 8 out of 10 Americans believe Prayer Saved Giffords
PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 10:38 am 
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People are not smart, and I'm being punched repeatedly in the face by that fact on a daily basis lately.

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 Post subject: Re: 8 out of 10 Americans believe Prayer Saved Giffords
PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 10:48 am 
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The head of the trauma center that treated Giffords said
Quote:
When you get shot through the head and the bullet goes through your brain, the chance of your living is very small and the chance of you waking up and following commands is small


There are huge inequalities in medical care in this country. There's a %100 chance Giffords wouldn't have survived without medical care. Medical care saved Giffords, but having that medical care wasn't a guarantee she would survive with a wound like this. Prayer aside, I think this is a case where we can say "holy shiitake, those are small odds she and her doctors overcame".

I think racial disparities in medical care are more nuanced. The procedures in the article you linked to Tofulish were all preventitive care statistics (mammograms, diabetes management, heart disease). I think your chances with an acute condition have a lot to do with how close you are to an excellent hospital. This study, for instance found that there wasn't a difference in how minorities were treated in trauma centers. Giffords's rehabilitation will likely be very different than someone's with less money and prestige, but I don't think that applies to the initial trauma treatment that kept her alive.


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 Post subject: Re: 8 out of 10 Americans believe Prayer Saved Giffords
PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 11:02 am 
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You are absolutely right that outcome in an emergency depends on how close you are to an excellent hospital. There are studies that show that the quality of the hospitals vary from minority (often low income) to non-minority areas. I've had to go to our local hospital emergency room- which serves a predominantly low income Hispanic clientele (Paterson NJ) - for asthma attacks. The first time the doctor gave me a prescription for a medicine that hasn't been made for 3 years and the second the guy was so happy to have a patient other than a GSW or drunken disorderly that he spent way too long talking to me and was weird. I would go there again only for asthma, but if anything else happens I want to be taken to Montclair - white, upper middle class neighborhood. It scares the crepe out of me that if anything goes wrong I could end up in Paterson in the emergency room.

Quote:
Whites are more likely to receive more, and more thorough, diagnostic work and better treatment and care than people of color -- even when controlling for income, education, and insurance. ... Furthermore, researchers have concluded that doctors are less aggressive when treating minority patients.(95) Thus, the most favored patient is "White, male between the ages of 25 and 44."(96) In fact, at least one study indicated a combined effect of race and gender resulting in significantly different health care for African-American women. (97)

http://academic.udayton.edu/health/07hu ... ial01c.htm

In Atul Gawande's book "Complications" he talks about the extensive efforts they made to save a 15 year old white girl's leg from flesh-eating bacteria, because they thought it would be so hard for her to live without a leg, and he admits that for anyone else they would have just amputated.

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 Post subject: Re: 8 out of 10 Americans believe Prayer Saved Giffords
PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 11:06 am 
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People, people -- it was all the positive chi that I sent her that saved her life. Get it right.

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 Post subject: Re: 8 out of 10 Americans believe Prayer Saved Giffords
PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 11:53 am 
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janejellyroll wrote:
People, people -- it was all the positive chai that I sent her that saved her life. Get it right.

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 Post subject: Re: 8 out of 10 Americans believe Prayer Saved Giffords
PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 11:55 am 
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According to the article it was actually a telephone poll of randomly selected registered voters, not a Fox online poll.
Anyway, it doesn't make sense. Why would god save a democrat?

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 Post subject: Re: 8 out of 10 Americans believe Prayer Saved Giffords
PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 12:03 pm 
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Please send positive chai my way.

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 Post subject: Re: 8 out of 10 Americans believe Prayer Saved Giffords
PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 12:19 pm 
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Imitation Of Chris wrote:
Why would god save a democrat?


It's a sign!! God wants us to all be democrats. Spread the news!


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 Post subject: Re: 8 out of 10 Americans believe Prayer Saved Giffords
PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 12:55 pm 
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Imitation Of Chris wrote:
According to the article it was actually a telephone poll of randomly selected registered voters, not a Fox online poll.
Anyway, it doesn't make sense. Why would god save a Jewish democrat?


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 Post subject: Re: 8 out of 10 Americans believe Prayer Saved Giffords
PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 1:14 pm 
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Everything happens for a reason. Gabrielle Giffords had to be shot and almost die for a reason. Still waiting to hear why an all-powerful, all-knowing entity orchestrated the murder of a little girl at the same time.

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 Post subject: Re: 8 out of 10 Americans believe Prayer Saved Giffords
PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 1:57 pm 
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FootFace wrote:
Everything happens for a reason. Gabrielle Giffords had to be shot and almost die for a reason. Still waiting to hear why an all-powerful, all-knowing entity orchestrated the murder of a little girl at the same time.

So arrogant. You think you know better than God.

PS you can totally change God's mind by wishing hard enough, which is not at all arrogant.

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