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 Post subject: A Marxist Critique of Veganism and Environmentalism
PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2011 2:40 pm 
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Tofu Pup

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So apparently a member of your forum, DarthHarris, was upset by a couple of blog entries I wrote a while back. I created a user account to try and answer some of the criticisms. They told me that the topic should really be moved over to here, so here it is.

My most general critique of the "Green" environmental movement, including veganism and other lifestyle politics, can be found here: [url]http://rosswolfe.wordpress.com/2011/03/25/man-and-nature-part-iv-a-radical-critique-of-the-“green”-environmental-movement/[/url]

Another article, more specifically about veganism, can be accessed here: http://rosswolfe.wordpress.com/2011/04/14/on-veganism/

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A Marxist Critique of the "Green" Environmental Movement (including veganism)


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 Post subject: Re: A Marxist Critique of Veganism and Environmentalism
PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2011 3:09 pm 
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Ross Wolfe wrote:
While there’s nothing wrong with seeing it as simply a moral issue, there is something incredibly obnoxious and self-aggrandizing about puffing out your chest, believing your diet will change the world. While the number of vegetarians and vegans has grown into sizeable minority, you would think that meat consumption would’ve shown a slight decline. But the opposite is true. Total meat consumption has increased. With food costs rising, meat has become more practical (in terms of calorie intake) and affordable. There is absolutely no substance to the claim that going vegan saves any animals. Capitalism does not plan production based on a one to one correspondence of a supply demand. In fact, its key feature is overproduction. A general lowering of demand will then likely mean two things: 1) animals not consumed will just be wasted 2) the price of meat becomes cheaper, increasing total consumption.


It's not just that I find this un-useful. I also find it wrong-headed. "Puffing out your chest"? Something "obnoxious" about believing you can make a difference? Going vegan doesn't save animals? Well, if I'm the only vegan, it doesn't, that's true. And if I'm the only one voting for a particular candidate, that candidate won't get elected. Does that mean supporting a candidate—or any political cause or movement, or any principle at all!—is meaningless? I think this line is reason is irrational. You're arguing against something no one ever said.

Ross Wolfe wrote:
But what if for the sake of argument, veganism got what it wanted? The world adopts a vegan diet, the meat industry collapses, then what? This is where their militant rhetoric unravels. The system can shed whatever it needs to, or create a small niche (which it has), but the drive toward exploitation, war, and environmental destruction will always be essential.


Do you realize how nihilistic this is? Are you saying that until the world throws off its capitalist shackles, meaningful change of any kind is impossible? That doesn't make any sense at all. Humans will always do bad things—their drive toward war and other bad things will never abate—so why bother trying to make things better? Why bother having principles?

Are you aware that you purport to have principles as well?

Should people stop opposing war? Stop decrying dictatorial regimes around the world? Stop supporting industries they find immoral, corrupt, or illegal?

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 Post subject: Re: A Marxist Critique of Veganism and Environmentalism
PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2011 3:19 pm 
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Attended Chelsea Clinton's Wedding

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I admire your courage in your choice not to censor the comments of "House plans" and "House blueprints." It is gracious of you to share your forum and allow those that disagree with you to freely advertise their products and blogs. Lesser people (cowards!) would censor such comments, or choose to remove the ability to comment all-together.


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 Post subject: Re: A Marxist Critique of Veganism and Environmentalism
PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2011 3:21 pm 
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It's funny that a self-described Marxist, a philosophy fundamentally concerning human freedom, should go to such lengths to defend the abuse of beings that happen to be outside of our species.

Quote:
Our species distinguishes itself by organizing into social and productive relations.


Yes, we distinguish ourselves... from all those monkeys, tigers, birds, and fish who would never organize socially and help one another. This is also why humans who aren't very social have their human rights stripped from them and are killed and eaten.

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 Post subject: Re: A Marxist Critique of Veganism and Environmentalism
PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2011 3:23 pm 
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My favorite comment on your blog:

Quote:
Veganism too me is a personal choice. Engels did point how, human brains developed because of mixed diet.


So Marxism and socialism are just cults, I guess. I mean, if Engels said it, it must be true. Who would know better the details of human evolution than a 19th century philosopher?

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 Post subject: Re: A Marxist Critique of Veganism and Environmentalism
PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2011 3:44 pm 
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FootFace wrote:
My favorite comment on your blog:

Quote:
Veganism too me is a personal choice. Engels did point how, human brains developed because of mixed diet.


So Marxism and socialism are just cults, I guess. I mean, if Engels said it, it must be true. Who would know better the details of human evolution than a 19th century philosopher?


Wait. Why am I getting a strong feeling of deja vu here?!


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 Post subject: Re: A Marxist Critique of Veganism and Environmentalism
PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2011 3:47 pm 
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Additionally, I find it funny that a big part of your critique of veganism concerns its low level of effectiveness as a boycott. Are you making great strides toward producing a Marxist world? I hope you're actually living your ideals and fomenting revolution somewhere and not just spending your life writing largely unread blog entries and ragging on people who have actually taken meaningful action after forming their philosophies.

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Like the beleaguered people of sub-Saharan Africa, I'll just go to Denny's. Solidarity!
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 Post subject: Re: A Marxist Critique of Veganism and Environmentalism
PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2011 3:56 pm 
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That is pretty much it vegimator. Marxism in America is a mostly a dead movement. I think the few marxists left go talk to other groups hoping to get attention and maybe get some new members.

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 Post subject: Re: A Marxist Critique of Veganism and Environmentalism
PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2011 4:08 pm 
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I do want to say that I'm not bashing Marxism in itself. It's just silly in this context.

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Like the beleaguered people of sub-Saharan Africa, I'll just go to Denny's. Solidarity!
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 Post subject: Re: A Marxist Critique of Veganism and Environmentalism
PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2011 5:58 pm 
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Not NOT A Furry

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This is America, buddy, love it or leave it.


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 Post subject: Re: A Marxist Critique of Veganism and Environmentalism
PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2011 8:23 pm 
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In Latin America (and I mean right now), many people are eating less and less animals because the cost of "meat" has increased so much. Instead, people in such countries as Guatemala are turning to legumes and beans, as well as the fruits and veggies that have always been consumed.
Are you only focusing on the US? Because doesn't the government there subsidize so many of the unhealthy farms/foods? Thus making it cheaper for the population at large to buy genetically modified chickens, corn, junk? In the US, instead of selling fruits and veggies at lower prices, the food that is not sold is thrown away. People are not encouraged to eat less meat and instead choose healthier options, because this type of food is not made affordable and as enticing. Being vegan isn't just about saving animals. It is much more affordable to someone on welfare to follow a clean vegan diet (no junk-just whole/pure foods), that someone who isn't..


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 Post subject: Re: A Marxist Critique of Veganism and Environmentalism
PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2011 9:17 pm 
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Should Write a Goddam Book Already
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This has been such a busy day. Two flounces and a kfisher!


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 Post subject: Re: A Marxist Critique of Veganism and Environmentalism
PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2011 11:19 pm 
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Huffs Nutritional Yeast
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dude! I was excited about the kfisher alone! Where'd I miss flouncing???


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 Post subject: Re: A Marxist Critique of Veganism and Environmentalism
PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2011 11:33 pm 
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Brain Made of Raw Seitan
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BFH wrote:
This is America, buddy, love it or leave it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjsW_B4eZTc

Get out of my mind!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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 Post subject: Re: A Marxist Critique of Veganism and Environmentalism
PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2011 4:36 am 
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Forgive me, I'm not the best with words, but in a nutshell OP, I should not have moral values if not enough others share them?

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 Post subject: Re: A Marxist Critique of Veganism and Environmentalism
PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2011 7:50 am 
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Bathes in Braggs

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Do Marxists eat refined sugar and how do they feel about celebrities?

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 Post subject: Re: A Marxist Critique of Veganism and Environmentalism
PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2011 10:24 am 
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In reply, a Vegan critique of Marxism

"Meh"

Mat.

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 Post subject: Re: A Marxist Critique of Veganism and Environmentalism
PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2011 12:53 pm 
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The price of beef is supposed to go up 7-8% this year. And this isn't uncommon, it's been on the up for a while now.

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"luckily us vegans dont go into cardiac arrest...but we do go into food comas" - Adam Crisis


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 Post subject: Re: A Marxist Critique of Veganism and Environmentalism
PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2011 1:24 pm 
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I don't think every vegan's goal is to have the whole world go vegan. I like to be in the minority so I can feel superior and obnoxious thanks to my ethical choices.

And anyway, someone said that every journey begins with a single step...

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 Post subject: Re: A Marxist Critique of Veganism and Environmentalism
PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2011 1:58 pm 
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Incidentally, the latest numbers I can find indicate that meat consumption numbers are stable or dropping slightly. The numbers he referenced from an environmentalist blog are old.

If you look here - http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/ ... 1s1377.pdf
you can see that fully industrialized countries (ie countries where people are exposed to the problems with meat) almost all are experiencing a drop in meat demand in almost all categories (or were in 2009 which is the latest data available) and it's mostly countries like India, China and Brazil who are showing an increase in consumption as more of their population emerges from poverty and adopts a more meat heavy diet.

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Like the beleaguered people of sub-Saharan Africa, I'll just go to Denny's. Solidarity!
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 Post subject: Re: A Marxist Critique of Veganism and Environmentalism
PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2011 2:22 pm 
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Anek wrote:
I don't think every vegan's goal is to have the whole world go vegan. I like to be in the minority so I can feel superior and obnoxious thanks to my ethical choices.


Yes, there's that of course. And also this: wanting the whole world to be vegan does not necessarily imply a wish to criminalize meat.

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 Post subject: Re: A Marxist Critique of Veganism and Environmentalism
PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2011 2:39 pm 
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Well, the powers that be could always lower the standard of living in the U.S. so much that Marxism, or at least socialist reforms under another name could become attractive to many Americans.

Beyond that, I don't see Marxism having any reality in my life, at least not a positive one. It just seems like something else that exists only on paper that people will argue and pick nits about back and forth.

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 Post subject: Re: A Marxist Critique of Veganism and Environmentalism
PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2011 3:39 pm 
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So, a culturally driven decrease in demand leads to an increase in consumption, ceteris paribus?

That would explain why I'm trapped in this Clamato death spiral.

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 Post subject: Re: A Marxist Critique of Veganism and Environmentalism
PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2011 3:42 pm 
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Yeah, i remember when i hated clamato and thought it was unethical and then no one was buying it so they had to drop the price. after that i was like, damn, clamato is cheap now, so i started buying a ton of it and they had to keep making more and selling it for cheap. my whole lifestyle that was based on wanting the world not drink clamato anymore didn't matter because it was cheap and sooo tomatoe-y and fishy. NOM!

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 Post subject: Re: A Marxist Critique of Veganism and Environmentalism
PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2011 3:50 pm 
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The only solution is real political action: banning Clamato in all countries and territories.

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