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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 11:12 am 
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joyfulgirl wrote:
graffitipassion wrote:
masuphl wrote:
When a man refuses to walk through a door that a woman is holding, I get really irritated.


That HAPPENS?! Wow.

YES. I hate it too. It happens most with older men at work or at the gym. They give you this look like you're hopelessly naive. Or like the way you look at a kid reaching for something up high who declares "I can do it myself" and you know he can't, but you smile a little and watch them try until you help out.


This happens all the time in my office building. Especially when waiting for the elevator.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 11:14 am 
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FootFace wrote:
b.vicious wrote:
My boyfriend's father does this. I mean, if I was really demanding about it he would probably suck it up. It usually goes like this: when I've held the door for everyone else in our group, as we're going into a restaurant or something, he'll be the last person in and insist on holding the door for me - because obviously holding it for just one more person would be too much for me to handle! *faint*


He's not doing it for you. He's doing it to keep from going gay.

Hey now, be nice.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 7:35 pm 
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You know, my mom makes little anti-feminist comments sometimes, and it really bothers me. My dad is outright sexist/racist/homophobic (He seriously said to me today that the supermarket near us sells things in bulk because "black people like to buy in bulk", and when I looked appalled, he said "You need to realise these things are true. That supermarket is all watermelon and ribs and that's why they shop there." Yeah. That's why I don't talk to my dad.), but my mom is mostly good, so I guess I expect more of her. She'll do victim blaming, like "Oh, but look at what that woman was wearing! If she doesn't want to get harassed, she shouldn't wear such revealing clothing." And she has a "boys will be boys" attitude. When I was a teenager, she thought it was funny when creepy old men would leer at me, and if I complained, she would say, "Oh, old men just like to look at pretty young girls!" like I should take it as a compliment. I try to talk to her, and get her to think about these things more, but I'm pretty sure she just thinks I'm a radical, and dismisses it, and it makes me sad. Gloria Steinem actually spoke at her college, but I guess my mom wasn't paying attention that day!


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 12:06 am 
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Who? Nearly everyone in my life. Whether it's the Chauvinist, or the Policing Femmenist, or the 'galant sexist' (the term I use for the knight-like nice guys who think treating women as fragile flowers in need of protection is not degrading) All across the board I have people casually stating things that make my skin crawl.

My partner and I are constantly getting asked, "Which one is the guy?" and her and I get labeled "girl" or "boy" because of our interests or actions. Some gay women do engender themselves as "male" but the assumption that to have a relation ship one MUST be male and one MUST be female, bothers the heck out of me. In fact, I hate it when anyone assumes roles out of gay or straight women. I love cooking, I sew, I love getting dressed up, I'm the 'handy' person in our home, I'm stronger than my partner, I study martial arts. Those are just things I like doing or hobbies I have. They shouldn't embody a gender at all let alone restricting them to one or the other. Colors, types of animals, foods people eat, movies people like, I get enraged when someone says it's "boyish" or "girly".

I have one friend that refuses to be "feminine" (what exactly dose that entail anyway?) because she thinks it makes her stupid in some way, less of a person. Society drilled that into everyone's head. When I was younger I used to fight against the female steryotype too, because I hated being labeled as girly. Now I realize I am proud to be a female and enjoy my traits that society labels as 'feminine', but I still find myself wincing when people don't see me as a full person and just the gender I happen to be.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 1:31 am 
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jessilikewhoa wrote:
Policing women's behavior while giving a pass to dudes doing the same shiitake is never a feminist act.


I cannot stand that shiitake! And I hear it so often. It enrages me.

This example is a bit extreme, but; Let's say that while walking home from the store/bust stop/wherever, in an area that's known to be somewhat rough. A gang fight breaks out, and I get shot in the crossfire. I'm pretty sure that in such an instance, most people would agree that the person at fault is the one who shot the gun, not the person who was caught in the crossfire.

WHY DOES THIS MENTALITY NOT WORK FOR RAPE?!?!?!


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 6:52 am 
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Kunoichisama wrote:
Who? Nearly everyone in my life. Whether it's the Chauvinist, or the Policing Femmenist, or the 'galant sexist' (the term I use for the knight-like nice guys who think treating women as fragile flowers in need of protection is not degrading) All across the board I have people casually stating things that make my skin crawl.

My partner and I are constantly getting asked, "Which one is the guy?" and her and I get labeled "girl" or "boy" because of our interests or actions. Some gay women do engender themselves as "male" but the assumption that to have a relation ship one MUST be male and one MUST be female, bothers the heck out of me. In fact, I hate it when anyone assumes roles out of gay or straight women. I love cooking, I sew, I love getting dressed up, I'm the 'handy' person in our home, I'm stronger than my partner, I study martial arts. Those are just things I like doing or hobbies I have. They shouldn't embody a gender at all let alone restricting them to one or the other. Colors, types of animals, foods people eat, movies people like, I get enraged when someone says it's "boyish" or "girly".

I have one friend that refuses to be "feminine" (what exactly dose that entail anyway?) because she thinks it makes her stupid in some way, less of a person. Society drilled that into everyone's head. When I was younger I used to fight against the female steryotype too, because I hated being labeled as girly. Now I realize I am proud to be a female and enjoy my traits that society labels as 'feminine', but I still find myself wincing when people don't see me as a full person and just the gender I happen to be.

I really like this post.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 2:43 pm 
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DreamerSpirit wrote:
jessilikewhoa wrote:
Policing women's behavior while giving a pass to dudes doing the same shiitake is never a feminist act.


I cannot stand that shiitake! And I hear it so often. It enrages me.

This example is a bit extreme, but; Let's say that while walking home from the store/bust stop/wherever, in an area that's known to be somewhat rough. A gang fight breaks out, and I get shot in the crossfire. I'm pretty sure that in such an instance, most people would agree that the person at fault is the one who shot the gun, not the person who was caught in the crossfire.

WHY DOES THIS MENTALITY NOT WORK FOR RAPE?!?!?!

That mentality doesn't work for rape because it doesn't make sense. Rape isn't an accident that amounts to being in the wrong place at the wrong time. It is a deliberate attack. You can't be unintentionally raped while the person is trying to rape someone else.

(Of course, blaming the victim doesn't make sense either.)

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 3:36 am 
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My best friend, who identifies as a feminist, will comment on women's clothing saying things like "I can't believe these women who go to a wedding and dress like hookers! So desperate." I always respond with, "And what's wrong with dressing like a hooker?" And then she'll give it some quasi-feminist argument about modesty and the "sexualizing" of women. Then I say that we should attack the culture that tells women all of their value is in their sexuality and not attack the women for believing that message. Plus I don't see anything wrong with and it's none of my business if a woman dresses sexually provocative. Anyhoo, it's stuff like that drives me nutters.


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 8:26 pm 
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What a great thread! I just joined today and haven't even introduced myself but this is such a hot topic for me I gotta respond!

For me, it's the people that use feminine terms to insult men.. whether referring to them as female genitalia or bisques, taunting them with comments like they (insert action) like a girl, or asking them if they're on their man-period if they're acting whiny.
I hate, hate, HATE that stuff.. and when I call them on it, I'm amazed how many will argue with me that these things have nothing to do with insulting women.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 11:19 am 
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Dominique wrote:
What a great thread! I just joined today and haven't even introduced myself but this is such a hot topic for me I gotta respond!

For me, it's the people that use feminine terms to insult men.. whether referring to them as female genitalia or bisques, taunting them with comments like they (insert action) like a girl, or asking them if they're on their man-period if they're acting whiny.
I hate, hate, HATE that stuff.. and when I call them on it, I'm amazed how many will argue with me that these things have nothing to do with insulting women.


I completely agree with you! I have really been much more aware of it lately. People say things like that constantly, and a lot of them are women saying it!


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 1:55 pm 
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A family member who just excused another family member's bad behavior by saying, "remember, she's not married." Being in a relationship (or not) has no bearing on your ability to be considerate of others.


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 9:19 am 
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People that are so obsessed with being PC that you cannot have a conversation with them. They seem to dissect every single word that comes out of your mouth and make whatever you say about them, and not about the issue at hand.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 10:08 am 
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mollyjade wrote:
A family member who just excused another family member's bad behavior by saying, "remember, she's not married." Being in a relationship (or not) has no bearing on your ability to be considerate of others.


BAHAHAHAHAHA! That is awesome. I guess its because women don't become full adults until they are married. Until then they are like teenagers. Even if they have college degrees, jobs and all the other trappings of adulthood. I wish I'd been ruder before I got married now.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 11:20 am 
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My classmates. Near everyone I know in school? Because, apparently, there are "more pressing issues", and that women don't have it THAT bad, at least in Singapore we're good. True that, but it doesn't make the cause any less worth fighting for.

It's like saying the gay rights movement in Singapore is stupid because we shouldn't press for same-sex marriage and instead be content with a "neither approving nor condemning" stance, because it's not THAT bad.


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 11:33 am 
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My nan. If we go out to eat we all have to tell my poppy what we want and he is supposed to order for us (if she's not there then he doesn't because she's the only one who cares). I went out to dinner with them one night and she told me that that's what you're supposed to do, tell the man what you want and he will speak/order for you. She also refuses to pump her own gas because she says that it's below her. This isn't necessarily a feminist thing but she will drive around on E and completely refuse to pump her own gas so she will make my poppy take the car out and pump the gas. She'd do the same for a woman though so I guess that's more classist. She's always saying "a man does this, a man is supposed to do this" and "a woman does this and a woman does that." She's also very, very into false beauty and tells my cousins to marry rich men.

But, my whole family is homophobic, classist, racist, etc...

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 11:48 am 
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Oh oh, my parents:

Wear a dress, don't do eyeliner goth-style, I hate your hair, stop waxing it, stop getting mistaken for a boy, all this is very unbecoming of a girl.

When I challenge them and ask why, I always get, "because you're a girl".


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 12:06 pm 
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When someone uses slurs that actually, really hurt me and/or people I love, and I finally get the courage to tell them so, and they won't take me seriously because I'm just being "too PC."

ETA: jewbacca, sorry if this post sounds like a passive-aggressive response to yours, it isn't meant to be! I wrote mine before reading yours.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 12:19 pm 
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mustardseed wrote:
It's like saying the gay rights movement in Singapore is stupid because we shouldn't press for same-sex marriage and instead be content with a "neither approving nor condemning" stance, because it's not THAT bad.


Even though male same-sex sexual activity is still criminalized, though those laws are not widely enforced?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Singapore

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 12:35 pm 
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b.vicious wrote:
When someone uses slurs that actually, really hurt me and/or people I love, and I finally get the courage to tell them so, and they won't take me seriously because I'm just being "too PC."

ETA: jewbacca, sorry if this post sounds like a passive-aggressive response to yours, it isn't meant to be! I wrote mine before reading yours.



It's all good. I didn't think that at all. It's all about intent. To me there's a big difference between "Hey there, fat bisque. Wanna cheeseburger?" and "I'm a fatass badass bisque!" One takes away power, the other is empowering. Yeah-yeah, I know about breaking down the "b" word and what the historical context is, but I'm choosing to take it back and make it mine. I can't be hurt by the word anymore.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 12:56 pm 
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jewbacca wrote:
b.vicious wrote:
When someone uses slurs that actually, really hurt me and/or people I love, and I finally get the courage to tell them so, and they won't take me seriously because I'm just being "too PC."

ETA: jewbacca, sorry if this post sounds like a passive-aggressive response to yours, it isn't meant to be! I wrote mine before reading yours.



It's all good. I didn't think that at all. It's all about intent. To me there's a big difference between "Hey there, fat bisque. Wanna cheeseburger?" and "I'm a fatass badass bisque!" One takes away power, the other is empowering. Yeah-yeah, I know about breaking down the "b" word and what the historical context is, but I'm choosing to take it back and make it mine. I can't be hurt by the word anymore.

I don't agree that intent is the only thing that matters, BUT I definitely agree with you on this example. I wouldn't tell people what they're allowed to call themselves. I'm reminded of this post on Microaggressions (posted just a little while ago actually) - http://microaggressions.com/post/679211 ... ueer-its-a

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 3:20 pm 
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Tofulish wrote:
mollyjade wrote:
A family member who just excused another family member's bad behavior by saying, "remember, she's not married." Being in a relationship (or not) has no bearing on your ability to be considerate of others.


BAHAHAHAHAHA! That is awesome. I guess its because women don't become full adults until they are married. Until then they are like teenagers. Even if they have college degrees, jobs and all the other trappings of adulthood. I wish I'd been ruder before I got married now.

I think it's more the idea that there's this great disappointment/failing in her life that causes her to act out. Bull shiitake. She's inconsiderate because she gets away with it.


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 5:45 pm 
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mollyjade wrote:
Tofulish wrote:
mollyjade wrote:
A family member who just excused another family member's bad behavior by saying, "remember, she's not married." Being in a relationship (or not) has no bearing on your ability to be considerate of others.


BAHAHAHAHAHA! That is awesome. I guess its because women don't become full adults until they are married. Until then they are like teenagers. Even if they have college degrees, jobs and all the other trappings of adulthood. I wish I'd been ruder before I got married now.

I think it's more the idea that there's this great disappointment/failing in her life that causes her to act out. Bull shiitake. She's inconsiderate because she gets away with it.


Or she's not married because she's a dick.


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 6:21 am 
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jordanpattern wrote:
j-dub wrote:
What I think is interesting about the critiques I've heard (and made) about second-wave feminism/ts is that it anachronistically expects people to be above or outside the system they found themselves in.

Yes, there was a lot of transphobia (racism, etc) in many second wave feminisms, and there still is in many forms of lesbian separatism for example, as well as some third wave feminist movements, but society in general was much more transphobic than it is now (not that it's all kittens and lollipops now). Which is not to excuse transphobia anywhere, anytime, but I don't think it does anyone or any feminism any good to take the vantage point we have now--thanks to those activists--and to apply it to them after the fact as a failing. As a point of learning, yes. But as a way to discredit their amazing work, absolutely not.

Plus, what I think we often fail to acknowledge, is that even having this knowledge and the time to question and challenge these things is in itself a huge privilege.


Sure, but I will still use my privilege to criticize what I think is unjust or hateful or wrong. I do it in all areas of my life. Why wouldn't I do with with feminism?

As I said, I was wrong to use the term "second wave," when what I meant was the anti-porn, anti-trans, separatist nonsense. I acknowledge that there were good things to come from second wave feminism as the term is properly used.


Yeah, I acknowledge that there were good things to come from second wave feminism as well, but every time I read something I have to be on guard for when some surprise "OH AND BY THE WAY TRANSSEXUALS ARE AN ABOMINATION AGAINST NATURE" punch in the gut might pop in. It actually feels worse to me to be reading something and be like, "Yeah! Yeah! I totally agree with this! Whoo!" and all of a sudden have the writer start trash-talking me and the people I love, than it does for me to read something hateful about transgender people from a source I'm expecting it from. And on some level, I do think that if someone's gender theory is based on discounting every gender other than the one they define as "woman", their gender theory is inherently bullshiitake.

(But, I think pretty much all gender theories are inherently bullshiitake to some extent, just some more so than others. :) )

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 4:57 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 5:25 pm 
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oh, that's a quote from a television show called community, but out of context that sounds terrible.

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