Who challenges your feminism in your life?

lavawitch · **Posted:** Sun Mar 17, 2013 4:00 pm

I kept reading comments in hope that sanity prevailed, but they were mostly all like that.

SassyOh · **Posted:** Sun Mar 17, 2013 5:16 pm

Tofulish wrote:

the prosecutor who didn't recuse herself when it turned out some of the assaults took place at her home and dissuaded the victim from bringing charges

What are the possible consequences of this? I hope she wouldn't be allowed to continue practicing law.

Mr. Shankly · **Posted:** Sun Mar 17, 2013 6:17 pm

Wait, what are they saying the girl is guilty of (re: comments)? Drinking? Seriously? They're claiming that she's at fault for drinking??

lavawitch · **Posted:** Sun Mar 17, 2013 6:20 pm

Mostly, she is guilty of being a girl.

quark · **Joined:** Mon Oct 25, 2010 7:31 am **Posts:** 643

Mr. Shankly wrote:

Wait, what are they saying the girl is guilty of (re: comments)? Drinking? Seriously? They're claiming that she's at fault for drinking??

Yes. The argument is that she was underage, so drinking was illegal. I don't understand that argument in the broader context... like, if I got really drunk, it wouldn't be illegal because I'm over 21, but something horrible could happen to me if a bunch of d-bags decided to rape me, so... I guess women just aren't supposed to get drunk ever? Or leave the house without men to protect them when they drink? Lard knows.

However, I wouldn't mind seeing some charges hit the parents who provided the alcohol and let the kids use their houses....

Mr. Shankly · **Posted:** Sun Mar 17, 2013 6:33 pm

CNN grieves that guilty verdict ruined ‘promising’ lives of Steubenville rapists

quark · **Joined:** Mon Oct 25, 2010 7:31 am **Posts:** 643

Mr. Shankly wrote:

CNN grieves that guilty verdict ruined ‘promising’ lives of Steubenville rapists

Lovely.

Tofulish · **Posted:** Sun Mar 17, 2013 9:10 pm

I thought this exchange between Mays and the victim/survivor was so telling about how warped the defendants' thinking was.

Quote:

Mr. Mays said in one text message to the girl. “I’m going to get in trouble for something I should be getting thanked for taking care of you.”

But the girl made clear that she was not having any more of it, telling Mr. Mays in another exchange: “It’s on YouTube. I’m not stupid. Stop texting me.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/18/us/te ... d=all&_r=0

And hurrah for Anonymous and all they did to get this story to light, kudos to the victim for testifying for 2 hours, being cross-examined and coming through clearly and finally for Mike DeWine for finally acknowledging how messed up this case was and convening a grand jury to investigate further.

http://m.abc6onyourside.com/news/AG_Dew ... irect=true

Shy Mox · **Posted:** Sun Mar 17, 2013 9:18 pm

Yeah, it was definitely a slap on the wrist, but honestly its the reality of rape culture that few get prosecuted and fewer are successful at all.

But yeah, contrast this to the India gang rape, and everyone seems unanimous that that is wrong, but when white guys do it, they're just innocents in all this and the drunk passed out girl somehow made them do it.

Tofulish · **Posted:** Sun Mar 17, 2013 11:03 pm

This is one of the best responses I've read. http://freethoughtblogs.com/brutereason ... ddamn-day/

Tofulish · **Posted:** Mon Mar 18, 2013 8:17 am

This was such good reporting.

It is easy to single out Richmond and Mays as two evil individuals, but as the testimony showed the problem is really structural. The same sober boy who stopped another boy from driving drunk just minutes before testified didn't feel like he should stop a sexual assault taking place, because he didn't view what happened as rape. When we introduce ideas like "legitimate rape" or slut shaming or the idea that anyone could ever deserve to be raped (including people in prison), we blur the line. We have done a great job educating kids on the dangers of drunk driving, because we make it so simple. It should be as simple to educate kids on preventing sexual assault. Touching someone who isn't able to consent, is not okay. It harms people. Don't do it. And if you see others doing it, stop them or call someone who can. No justifications, no excuses.

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/highschool ... 29528.html

Mr. Shankly · **Posted:** Mon Mar 18, 2013 5:31 pm

Fox News not only NAMES the victim but goes on to say that they won't name the rapists. what the fizzle! http://jezebel.com/5991148/fox-news-man ... socialflow

Tofulish · **Posted:** Mon Mar 18, 2013 5:52 pm

Oh Fox. Just when we think you can't be more despicable.

linanil · **Posted:** Mon Mar 18, 2013 6:15 pm

So I'll give my gripe as the last couple days were spent at a mostly male conference where there were tons of penis jokes, porn jokes, boob jokes and the like. Now I've worked in a male dominated field for 15 years so I know this isn't unusual. The thing is that 'why aren't there more women in the field?' is a common question. I was there with a few women and the organizers were very supportive of us as a group of women.

The thing is, I mentioned privately to my group of women that it is an intimidating environment for women and one of the women said that women just have to toughen up if they want to be in the field. Now, why wouldn't the answer be that men in the field realize that they are part of the problem? The answer is that women should just deal with it because that is how it is?

Mr. Shankly · **Posted:** Mon Mar 18, 2013 6:19 pm

And now the people threatening the victim. What is wrong with people? http://www.wtov9.com/news/news/breaking ... e-d/nWwmd/

coldandsleepy · **Posted:** Mon Mar 18, 2013 6:31 pm

linanil wrote:

So I'll give my gripe as the last couple days were spent at a mostly male conference where there were tons of penis jokes, porn jokes, boob jokes and the like. Now I've worked in a male dominated field for 15 years so I know this isn't unusual. The thing is that 'why aren't there more women in the field?' is a common question. I was there with a few women and the organizers were very supportive of us as a group of women.

The thing is, I mentioned privately to my group of women that it is an intimidating environment for women and one of the women said that women just have to toughen up if they want to be in the field. Now, why wouldn't the answer be that men in the field realize that they are part of the problem? The answer is that women should just deal with it because that is how it is?

I can't remember if we're in quite the same field or not, but this is a thing in my field too and it drives me up a wall. "Why aren't there more women in computer science?" "Um, because the corresponding culture tends to be at best disrespectful towards women and at worst downright hostile towards them? Maybe that?" "you need a sense of humor/thicker skin/other bull shiitake non-solution!" Argh.

linanil · **Posted:** Mon Mar 18, 2013 6:35 pm

coldandsleepy wrote:

linanil wrote:

So I'll give my gripe as the last couple days were spent at a mostly male conference where there were tons of penis jokes, porn jokes, boob jokes and the like. Now I've worked in a male dominated field for 15 years so I know this isn't unusual. The thing is that 'why aren't there more women in the field?' is a common question. I was there with a few women and the organizers were very supportive of us as a group of women.

The thing is, I mentioned privately to my group of women that it is an intimidating environment for women and one of the women said that women just have to toughen up if they want to be in the field. Now, why wouldn't the answer be that men in the field realize that they are part of the problem? The answer is that women should just deal with it because that is how it is?

I can't remember if we're in quite the same field or not, but this is a thing in my field too and it drives me up a wall. "Why aren't there more women in computer science?" "Um, because the corresponding culture tends to be at best disrespectful towards women and at worst downright hostile towards them? Maybe that?" "you need a sense of humor/thicker skin/other bull shiitake non-solution!" Argh.

We are :) I'm on a slightly different side of it but basically men, computers and a hostile environment. I think my area specifically is especially hostile (Computer Security) but in general, it isn't very friendly. I mean if you act like women are only sexual objects, of course they aren't going to want to enter the field. They want to be respected.

rhelune · **Posted:** Mon Mar 18, 2013 6:38 pm

Personally I do find men in computer science on average more creepy, stalker-like of the incompetent suitor type, much more so than in general masses. Or I'm just a magnet for such creeps because I can't tell a person off...

Mr. Shankly · **Posted:** Mon Mar 18, 2013 6:40 pm

rhelune wrote:

Personally I do find men in computer science on average more creepy, stalker-like of the incompetent suitor type, much more so than in general masses. Or I'm just a magnet for such creeps because I can't tell a person off...

I'd say for me it really depends. I know some guys who work in computer science who are pretty respectful and whatnot but then on the other end of the spectrum I see lots of "nice guys". You know, the ones who are nice to you because they think they're scoring sex points with you.

rhelune · **Posted:** Mon Mar 18, 2013 6:45 pm

Of course, most men in the field are OK.

Tofulish · **Posted:** Tue Mar 19, 2013 10:14 am

j-dub wrote:

Tofulish wrote:

Jigglypuff wrote:

Is anyone bothered by how often Obama refers to "our wives, mothers, and daughters" when he's talking about equality for women? I deserve equal rights because I'm a freaking person, not because of my relationship to someone else. Our country is in a sorry state indeed if the only way men can be convinced that women deserve equal pay and protection from violence is if those women are their relatives.

YES! Women have value only by association.

Its the same thing with rape. In the Steubenville case the only time anyone questions what the rapists are doing, its one person saying "Man, what if that was your sister?" And the guy making the video mocking the rape victim says "Yes, but she isn't."

Can we not agree that women shouldn't be raped because they shouldn't be raped, not because they are someone's sister/girlfriend/wife/mom/auntie/grandma/daughter/niece etc?

Here is a piece on that very issue. It's potentially triggering, and very difficult to read, but also really important, I think.

From the article wrote:

“Imagine if it were your wife/daughter/mother.” Yes, this phrase is almost reflexively brought up when discussing rape, other forms of gendered violence, abortion–really, anything that affects primarily women. But try to picture a woman being call upon to do the inverse: “Imagine if it were your husband/son/father.” It rarely happens. The idea that a woman would need a reminder on how to empathize with someone–as well as way of mentally replacing the object of empathy with someone else who is more personally valued to them–seems slightly ludicrous.

Another really good piece on that issue: http://bellejarblog.wordpress.com/2013/ ... -daughter/

Quote:

On top of all of this, I want you to think of a few other implications this rhetorical device [of trying to foster empathy for women by saying "what if that was your mother, wife, sister"] has. For one thing, what does it say about the women who aren’t anyone’s wife, mother or daughter? What does it say about the kids who are stuck in the foster system, the kids who are shuffled from one set of foster parents to another or else living in a group home? What does it say about the little girls whose mothers surrender them, willingly or not, to the state? What does it say about the people who turn their back on their biological families for one reason or another?

That they deserve to be raped? That they are not worthy of protection? That they are not deserving of sympathy, empathy or love?

And when we frame all women as being someone’s wife, mother or daughter, what are we teaching young girls?

We are teaching them that in order to have the law on their side, they need to be loved by men. That they need to make themselves attractive and appealing to men in order to be worthy of protection. That their lives and their bodily integrity are valueless except for how they relate to the men in their lives.

annak · **Posted:** Tue Mar 19, 2013 2:32 pm

I hate to interject in a discussion of important stuff, but this arrived in my inbox and I have to vent about it somewhere. This seemed like the most appropriate thread..

Now, this set of little screwdrivers for hard to reach places looks handy. In fact, I bet my husband would really like one! But of course it's "feminine," because it's marketed for people who sew. Who are all ladies, see? Because only ladies sew.

Tofulish · **Posted:** Tue Mar 19, 2013 3:06 pm

That looks like you wouldn't have much leverage and be kind of a pain to use. And yeah, what is up with the weird gendering of products. I am looking forward to the day they make a feminine garden hose, which is much less phallic. Oh except that women don't water plants.

rhelune · **Posted:** Tue Mar 19, 2013 3:59 pm

How came those screwdrivers aren't pink?

lavawitch · **Posted:** Tue Mar 19, 2013 4:25 pm

rhelune wrote:

How came those screwdrivers aren't pink?

Komen foundation might have sued.

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