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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 12:05 pm 
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Whenever people see little girls, the first thing to come out of their mouths is often a statement on how they look. And it seems innocuous enough, until you look at repercussions: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lisa-bloo ... 82510.html

I find myself automatically saying "Awww! She is SO BEAUTIFUL!" to all the kiddos we meet - because they really are SO BEAUTIFUL! But I'm going to work harder on trying to connect with them on another level from now on.

It was interesting to talk about this with my husband, and to see him get how making comments like that is teaching girls that their appearance is the first thing you notice and tells them that looks are more important than anything.

We also (like most other parents of girls) get a lot of "I'm going to need to get you a baseball bat to beat the boys off" or "You're going to have to lock her up" or "the boys are going to be lined up around the block." Which is all so creepy. Still trying to figure out a nice way to handle those comments. Because really, our daughter is going to be raised with a sense of her own agency.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 2:44 pm 
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Mr. Shankly wrote:
couroupita wrote:
If one more person asks me if I'm going to use my PhD in chemistry for "teaching" I will bust a gasket.

Next time tell them, "No, I plan to cook blue meth for a living."

Ha! I should totally do that. Also, "pork and Pantene" sounds like it could be a hilarious song title.


Tofulish wrote:
Whenever people see little girls, the first thing to come out of their mouths is often a statement on how they look. And it seems innocuous enough, until you look at repercussions: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lisa-bloo ... 82510.html

I find myself automatically saying "Awww! She is SO BEAUTIFUL!" to all the kiddos we meet - because they really are SO BEAUTIFUL! But I'm going to work harder on trying to connect with them on another level from now on.

It was interesting to talk about this with my husband, and to see him get how making comments like that is teaching girls that their appearance is the first thing you notice and tells them that looks are more important than anything.

We also (like most other parents of girls) get a lot of "I'm going to need to get you a baseball bat to beat the boys off" or "You're going to have to lock her up" or "the boys are going to be lined up around the block." Which is all so creepy. Still trying to figure out a nice way to handle those comments. Because really, our daughter is going to be raised with a sense of her own agency.

A lot of my friends are pregnant with baby girls right now. I would probably say something about them being beautiful just as an automatic response. I'm going to try to work on that and maybe think of other compliments or positive attributes to remark on because yeah, it's creepy and weird if that's the primary thing someone says about your kid.

About the weird boys lining the block stuff. Ugh. My dad used to say that stuff (like, I'll beat them off with a bat, or I'll skin them and nail them to the garage door as a warning sign to others. yuck) starting when I was a very young child until I moved out. It never made me feel good, like my dads got my back or I'm pretty or whatever. When I was old enough to start talking back I would always retort "I'm perfectly capable of handling myself." The first time I said that at like age 12 he did a double take, hahaha. Didn't stop it but it made me feel better.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 10:48 am 
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I am helping some students on their essays for professional school. One student describes his experience seeing an older woman who is losing her vision get dentures. He says that while she couldn't see them herself, her husband thought she was beautiful "and that was most important to her." It is actually part of a touching description, but this part is jarring and makes me say "really, how do you know? I bet she has lots of things that are more important to her. And also, why do women have to be beautiful? Clearly for their men." Anyway, I am giving him alternative suggestions (such as "and it brought joy to her face"). I am trying to find the right way to explain it to him though. Is there some word that I can use to express the concept that women have to be beautiful and all that makes them happy is to be beautiful for a man?


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 11:03 am 
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Well, I think I have a way of putting it. Does this sound okay? "...could be construed as problematic for assuming that a woman’s most important value is determined by how beautiful her husband sees her..."


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 11:50 am 
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I think that is a good way of putting it, kimba

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 1:08 pm 
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http://feministing.com/2013/05/09/donald-trump-trolls-again-this-time-on-military-sexual-assault/

I know we all know that Trump is a tool. But really the reactions I am seeing in response to the report... is trying my feminism. The idea that men are helpless against their urge for sex... leaves me frustrated and speechless.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 2:02 pm 
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All I can think about when guys say stuff like that is "how many women have you victimized, exactly?"

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 6:10 pm 
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I thought this was interesting. Disney is giving Merida from "Brave" a make-over so she can be included in the Disney Princess line-up. So clearly, they "fix" her to look more like a princess.
Image
There is more info and a Care petition linked here: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/0 ... 38223.html

Here are the new Princesses:
Image
Peggy Orenstein's excellent piece: http://peggyorenstein.com/blog/seriousl ... e-must-you

Looking back at all the children's toys that have been updated to look "sexier" is just depressing. And as Peggy Orenstein quotes "I think a lot about something that Gary Cross, an historian of childhood, once told me: that toys traditionally have communicated to children our expectations of their adult roles. What are we telling girls we expect of them with this?"

Updated Candy Land: http://peggyorenstein.com/blog/this-pos ... ry-and-sad

And Lego sending the message that street harassment is normal: http://peggyorenstein.com/blog/whats-next-porn-legos

Image

I miss the '70s. I just can't even begin to figure out how to raise a child free from all these ridiculous gender roles and sexism. To say nothing of the weird racism (thanks Disney).

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 10:50 am 
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I'm exhausted which often makes me teary, but that Disney and LEGO shiitake made me cry. I have kids ages 6-13, and trying to stay ahead of these horrible messages with/for them is exhausting. Merida is a great character...why do they do this to girls??


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 10:53 am 
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Dude, I cried over the Merida thing too! I just got to thinking about the movie and how much I loved it and how Disney had really done something great for girls for once and now they're ruining it.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 11:12 am 
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A friend took some awesome photos of our last show. A stand-out picture was black and white, of me screaming into a microphone. I was so pleased with it I used it as my FB profile shot for all of two minutes until someone commented on it "That's screaming to be photoshopped......" implying that I should have a cork in my mouth.

I can't articulate how angry I am. I deleted the photo with it's comment and unfriended the mother hubbard. I'll put the photo back up at a later date.


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 11:54 am 
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Fee wrote:
Dude, I cried over the Merida thing too! I just got to thinking about the movie and how much I loved it and how Disney had really done something great for girls for once and now they're ruining it.


Right?! Did they not see the movie?!

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 3:36 pm 
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8ball wrote:
A friend took some awesome photos of our last show. A stand-out picture was black and white, of me screaming into a microphone. I was so pleased with it I used it as my FB profile shot for all of two minutes until someone commented on it "That's screaming to be photoshopped......" implying that I should have a cork in my mouth.

I can't articulate how angry I am. I deleted the photo with it's comment and unfriended the mother hubbard. I'll put the photo back up at a later date.


Ugh, I'd be pissed too.


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 6:23 pm 
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Update: First of all, thank you for all of the responses that you've given me regarding one of my co-workers. Since my last post about him, I've had to go to someone two more times about him and one of those times was today. A worker from another store came in and right there in our store they start talking about way to freak women out, how to stalk them on Facebook, videos of naked women dancing around and were calling women whores and slut shaming women. I got SO pissed and calmly but sternly said to them, "Do you think it's necessary to be talking about this here? Do you really think it's appropriate to be talking about this right here on the floor?" and they got pissed at me and acted like I was WAY overreacting. I was so, so, so angry. How dare they speak about women like that, disrespect me, disrespect women, disrespect our customers- be so unprofessional, unethical and then get mad at me and act like I'm some overly emotional woman. I was so angry. I walked away and found the lead manager for the store and talked to her and then went on break. She said he's had tons of complaints in about him (regarding many things, some which are extremely serious). She talked to another manager and then went and spoke with him and when she came back to talk to me about it, she said that he reacted really immaturely and that if he tries to retaliate or make me feel uncomfortable to give him a call. So that was good and I'm glad someone finally went over and talked to him however, the fact that he still works there greatly disturbs me. For someone to have so many complaints against them regarding so many issues and to just keep going on the way he is without realizing "Oh hey, I better stop being a crasshole at work because I've had so many complaints filed against me."- this is just ridiculous and beyond atrocious. They said that if I feel uncomfortable that they can move me to another department but why am I the one who is being punished? Why am I the one who is being removed? I worked extremely hard to be where I am right now and I'm still working hard and for it to all fall down around me because someone else has poor behavior makes me feel not only depressed but helpless.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 6:29 pm 
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Wait, what? This doesn't sound legal? Someone else is sexually harassing you, so the solution is to move YOU?

Is there a HR department? Can you formally write this experience up and submit it as a proper complaint?

I'm really sorry this is happening. I don't understand these people (any of them, management especially).

Unfortunately, it sounds like you need some customer complaints. Perhaps they would take *those* seriously.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 6:40 pm 
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I dealt with sexual harrassment once at work, at Whole Foods. They were awesome. A produce guy was harassing a lot of women in the store. They sent him to work in the back making orange and carrot juice (part of his job anyway) so he was away from everybody, and simultaneously and immediately brought in a HR guy to take all our complaints and talk to everybody one at a time. It was all handled within 24 hrs and we all mostly felt cared for and validated. It was really nice that they had a clear procedure, followed it quickly, and listened to all of us.

The one bad part is it wasn't one of us who complained. Honestly, I felt uncomfortable around the guy and his comments, but it didn't occur to me to say anything. I don't know why, but I was 19 and pretty sheltered, so Im sure that played into it. But, I did have my boyfriend come stare at him one shift, and after that he left me alone. It was the store manager who overhead a comment as he was walking by, and he started the whole complaint in motion. After that he did a store meeting about what sexual harrassment is and what we absolutely should never tolerate from anybody.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 7:51 pm 
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ndpittman wrote:
Fee wrote:
Dude, I cried over the Merida thing too! I just got to thinking about the movie and how much I loved it and how Disney had really done something great for girls for once and now they're ruining it.


Right?! Did they not see the movie?!

fork.

I just saw this.

HOW forking DARE THEY DO THAT TO HER.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH.

pure sniffle my heart out.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 7:54 pm 
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aw, Merida! that really sucks!
That Lego thing is crazy, too!

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 8:42 pm 
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I'm so pissed about the Merida thing. It's like Disney didn't even watch their own movie!

On another note - I've noticed that Mulan, Tiana, Jasmine, and Pocahontas are always featured off to the sides when they are lined up with the other princesses...

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 8:56 pm 
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Yes, Orenstein mentions that too:
Quote:
In addition to everything else, they’re pushing the brown girls slowly but surely to the edges. Tiana is thinking, “Wait, I only got one year up front? One lousy year to make up for nearly a century of racism (though to be fair, the ugliness extended well beyond Disney’s depiction of African Americans)? Meanwhile, Mulan looks WEIRDER THAN EVER. She doesn’t even look human she’s been so Orientalized and botoxed.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 9:01 pm 
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Jasmine is often portrayed as lily white too. I worked at Michaels and we had tons of Disney Princess stuff, and I remember noticing ONE colouring book which has Jasmine on the front and she's dark skinned, in everything else she was as pale as the rest.

It also still icks me out that her waist is the same width than her neck.

Also did they drop Pocahontas's bling?

Image

I've never noticed ever that she or Mulan were very prominent in the Princess lineup though.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 9:06 pm 
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I haven't stomached anything Disney since The Lion King. The racism in that movie was just so overt.

I really don't understand what Disney's problem is. Are they really just so completely clueless, or is it more sinister? It also seems that the more they try to fix all of these problems, the worse they get.

I haven't seen Brave, but I read some articles on the computer modeling and programming technology needed to create her hair. Pretty awesome. It's a shame that all of the talent that goes into making these movies and creating these characters isn't all a force for positivity.

I was a huge Barbie fan growing up. Military kids always had the coolest Barbie collections since parents had a network to bring back toys from other countries, so we all had culturally diverse Barbies. The Japanese Barbies were my favorite. And that was completely random other than that (in my experience frowing up on military bases) kids like diversity when and if given the opportunity.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 11:04 pm 
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I think its pure ignorance. I'd love to see actual numbers but I would think that most people in Disney are male and white. Like they hired Native Americans to voice characters in Pocahontas, but did not ask the Powhatan to tell their own story. Mulan was very much based on stereotypes (make a fun drinking game, drink whenever someone says "honor" or "dishonor") and they hired all East Asian voice actors, because there's no difference between Japanese and Chinese, right?

I think Lilo and Stitch was probably the best movie they've done in terms of gender and race. I'm glad Lilo didn't become a princess.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 11:16 pm 
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Lately the fattism has been bothering me in Disney. The Orenstein book talks about that some. Once you start noticing it, you can't un-notice it.


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 11:44 pm 
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Sarah-Jane wrote:
The quote above assumes that people can only wax in order to have the "genitals of a prepubescent" which is absurd. I am not having sex with anyone at the moment and I don't intend on having sex for a while but I still shave my pubic hair because I feel more comfortable that way. NOBODY can see it besides myself, I don't even care what it looks like but I do want to feel more comfortable. I've gone through phases where it doesn't bother me (probably when I have been cooler - due to weather not some sort of "cool factor") and I don't shave regardless of who can see my vag.


Yeah...nobody tells dudes who shave their faces that they're doing it in order to have the chin of a prepubescent. Hell, nobody tells dudes who shave their pubes that, either.

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