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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 9:42 am 
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The thing she attended was basically a glorified camping trip in association with a class about coming of age ceromonies throughout the world. But the trip was horribly planned, badly executed and many of the activities were appropriated from First Nations cultures. I had already spent a lot of time reminding her about the appropriation.
It was the celebration last night that was really bad. The ceremony itself was just welcoming in the kids from the meditation and sweat lodge stuff (A mini retreat sort of thing). But it was the way that the teachers spoke. These are flipping hippies and they were more sexiest in their wording than I have heard in a long time.
I grew up on a reservation and back then, you weren't a woman in that tribe until you had a kid... so the teen pregnancy rate was ridiculous. And the wording last night was very similar to that.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 9:46 am 
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That sounds terrible, kfad. I think that it's important to remember that hippie/alternative does not always mean feminist.

A friend from Venezuela told me that where she grew up, instead of a quinceanera party with fancy dresses etc, they send the daughter on a trip to broaden their experience. She is sending her daughter to Italy when it's time.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 10:24 am 
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This comment left on an article about a woman gang raped in India:
Quote:
Wait a minute. She thought hitchhiking was a good idea? She put herself in this type of danger. C'mon lady.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 12:19 pm 
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Vantine wrote:
That sounds terrible, kfad.
Seriously - that random appropriation stuff makes me stabby as the child of Greek and English parents, so I can't imagine the aneurysm it would provoke if I was Native American.
Vantine wrote:
I think that it's important to remember that hippie/alternative does not always mean feminist.
Exactly. It's easy to lump all these "countercultural" thing sunder the banner of "progressive," but it ain't necessarily so. Your daughter is lucky to have you there to help unpack, analyze, and critique that garbage, both before and after.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 12:25 pm 
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Desdemona wrote:
Exactly. It's easy to lump all these "countercultural" thing sunder the banner of "progressive," but it ain't necessarily so. Your daughter is lucky to have you there to help unpack, analyze, and critique that garbage, both before and after.


That is something that for me is so hard to remember. We were always sort of considered "hippies" and my parents were super progressive and feminist.

Though you would think living in Eugene would drill that into me.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 4:02 pm 
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Holy smokes. (Trigger warning: rape-related content.)

http://jezebel.com/if-comedy-has-no-lad ... -511214385

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 4:43 pm 
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Yeah, holy crepe, that whole thing.

There is not enough :( in the world.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 7:11 pm 
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Gross. Lindy West is my goddamned hero and the fact that people want to say those kinds of things to her make me want to get my flamethrower out.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 8:49 pm 
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Whoa, I had to stop reading that- it was making me sick. People can be terrible.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 9:14 pm 
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jordanpattern wrote:
Yeah, holy crepe, that whole thing.

There is not enough :( in the world.
It's just...I can't believe people think those things, let alone say/write/express them. I see stuff like this and it's like I've landed on a hostile, alien planet; and then I start wondering if people around me who seem relatively benign and "normal" harbor these ideas and attitudes, and I just want to stay in my house with my partner and my kids and my pets forever and ever and ever amen.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 11:05 pm 
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Stupid crepe like this Mississippi Governor Blames Educational Troubles on Working Moms

Although while watching it on CNN, it was amusing watching the reporter suppress the red laser beams that were shooting our of her eyes.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 5:38 am 
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Desdemona wrote:
Holy smokes. (Trigger warning: rape-related content.)

http://jezebel.com/if-comedy-has-no-lad ... -511214385

I can't even... I'm so angry after reading that.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 2:42 pm 
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Love this, on the current and ongoing fascination with female infantilization. I only wish she'd mentioned that women get to have pubic hair, because we are not little girls, regardless of how the porn industry or Madison Avenue or purveyors of torture devices tell us we should strive at all costs to remain prepubescent forever.


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 3:31 pm 
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Wow. I loved that. I forgot how much I love spoken word. And yes on all accounts. I also agree with you Desdemona, but I won't even get into that.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 4:03 pm 
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ndpittman wrote:
Wow. I loved that. I forgot how much I love spoken word. And yes on all accounts. I also agree with you Desdemona, but I won't even get into that.
Cuz it's a jungle, amirite??

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 4:10 pm 
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Desdemona wrote:
ndpittman wrote:
Wow. I loved that. I forgot how much I love spoken word. And yes on all accounts. I also agree with you Desdemona, but I won't even get into that.
Cuz it's a jungle, amirite??


It is now, ha! But I am married to a Brazilian, if you get what I'm sayin'. I've talked to him about it, too. I just don't get it.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 4:11 pm 
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I thought this was interesting, but I wish he said a bit more. ETA: That is to say, a bit more on why what people are saying is problematic, etc. I'm not using my words very well right now, but do you know what I mean?

http://www.xojane.com/issues/jim-norton-lindy-west-rape-jokes

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 4:35 pm 
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This was from 2011, but I remember it being a real eye-opener for me.
http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/helen ... buse-women

Quote:
What does it feel like to be subjected to regular rape threats or death threats? To have people send you emails quoting your address, or outlining their sexual fantasies about you? That's the reality of what many female bloggers experience.

It's my belief that "normal" net users simply don't realise what it feels like to open the front door to a chorus of commenters howling at you about your opinions, your name, your appearance, your sexuality. If they did, we might all have a little less tolerance, be a little less ready to excuse sexist abuse as part of the "rough and tumble" of blogging.

So here, nine bloggers describe the kind of abuse they get, how it makes them feel, and what -- if anything -- they believe can be done about it. Please be warned: some of the abuse described is graphic.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 4:48 pm 
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ndpittman wrote:
I thought this was interesting, but I wish he said a bit more. ETA: That is to say, a bit more on why what people are saying is problematic, etc. I'm not using my words very well right now, but do you know what I mean?
http://www.xojane.com/issues/jim-norton-lindy-west-rape-jokes

man who thinks rape jokes are cool wrote:
People are afraid someone will respond with something smarter, so they just say something horrible in an effort to be heard. And that desire to be heard, to weigh in, is powerful. So, when people feel like no one is listening, they say something barbaric and vicious which is impossible to ignore.
Ah. So this explains Ann Coulter's existence.
same guy affecting to think knuckledragging troglodytes mean anything but what they grunt wrote:
My suggestion to these people is to think about what you really want to say and make an effort to say it. Your true opinion is not that you want her to be raped and you know that.

Most of you have real opinions on humor and its repercussions or lack thereof, so give your real opinions.
Hmmm. Disingenuous, naive, or just plain dumb? You decide.
dude who invokes patriarchal privilege to tell the bros to lay off the little lady already wrote:
But I am honestly requesting that people stop attacking her. It’s ugly and it’s unfair and does nothing to forward the point you think you’re trying to make.
Sorry, but I call bullshiitake on this whole pathetic attempt at damage control. This is just more of the same crepe Lindy West was talking about, wrapped in a more "sensitive, enlightened" package. This guy doesn't want to be in open solidarity with "people" who think it's funny/appropriate to suggest that any person be physically, emotionally, and psychologically violated - or worse, that they are so unattractive that they can only "wish" someone would want to do that to them - but he doesn't want to lose their support (read $$$) either.

In fact, it's a lot like the "arguments" we've all had about eating meat. People have a "right" to eat animals, and your not eating them (and talking about it) peas them off; the men who have been so threatened by the mere suggestion that joking about sexual violence might not be perfectly awesome feel they have a "right" to use rape victims' suffering as fodder for their...er..."humor." And that defensiveness gets expressed in appropriately (and horribly) aggressive ways: "Fine, I'll just eat twice as many cheeseburgers"; "I hope you get raped, you ugly/fat/humorless/insert-tired-misogynistic-trope bisque."

Bite me, Jim Norton. (Or try, if you don't mind pulling back stumps.)

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 5:08 pm 
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I don't know. He's in a bad situation, and by Lindy's own account, he's been cool to deal with over this whole thing. Just because he disagrees with her about rape jokes and went on a debate show to advocate for his opinion doesn't make him responsible for the insane backlash against his debate opponent.

I don't agree with his opinion on the issue, but I don't think he's being a crasshole.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 5:16 pm 
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jordanpattern wrote:
I don't know. He's in a bad situation, and by Lindy's own account, he's been cool to deal with over this whole thing. Just because he disagrees with her about rape jokes and went on a debate show to advocate for his opinion doesn't make him responsible for the insane backlash against his debate opponent.

I don't agree with his opinion on the issue, but I don't think he's being a crasshole.
I guess my back just goes up at the implication that these people should cease and desist because he is disgusted and has asked them to do so. I'm sorry, but why should his disgust weigh more significantly than that of the person at whom these hateful, threatening comments were directed? Would it be okay to say those things if he wasn't disgusted? Or was but didn't say so? Either way, it places the agency in the hands of misogynist crassholes who can choose whether to suggest that women who disagree with them should be assaulted - and I don't believe that all of those posters "didn't mean" what they said - or keep their horrible, ignorant opinions to themselves, but still have them.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 5:28 pm 
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I didn't read any of the above yet and am about to have dinner, but I saw Jim Norton perform in NYC in November and by my standards seemed like one of the good ones. I think in this case, he's trying to have a discussion and is even willing to learn something. I can't fault someone for not being perfect if they're clearly trying.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 6:16 pm 
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Desdemona wrote:
jordanpattern wrote:
I don't know. He's in a bad situation, and by Lindy's own account, he's been cool to deal with over this whole thing. Just because he disagrees with her about rape jokes and went on a debate show to advocate for his opinion doesn't make him responsible for the insane backlash against his debate opponent.

I don't agree with his opinion on the issue, but I don't think he's being a crasshole.
I guess my back just goes up at the implication that these people should cease and desist because he is disgusted and has asked them to do so. I'm sorry, but why should his disgust weigh more significantly than that of the person at whom these hateful, threatening comments were directed? Would it be okay to say those things if he wasn't disgusted? Or was but didn't say so? Either way, it places the agency in the hands of misogynist crassholes who can choose whether to suggest that women who disagree with them should be assaulted - and I don't believe that all of those posters "didn't mean" what they said - or keep their horrible, ignorant opinions to themselves, but still have them.


I think he's probably saying that because he feels like his comments were construed somehow as an invitation or weird endorsement of the horrific comments that came out of this whole thing. I don't know that it's that he thinks he somehow has a more legitimate voice. I think it's more likely that he thinks that perhaps the people making the comments are more likely to listen to him, which is, sucky though it may be, true.

This whole thing sucks, but I really don't think Jim Norton should get blame for anything other than having a kind of dumb opinion about rape jokes.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 8:06 pm 
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jordanpattern wrote:
Desdemona wrote:
jordanpattern wrote:
I don't know. He's in a bad situation, and by Lindy's own account, he's been cool to deal with over this whole thing. Just because he disagrees with her about rape jokes and went on a debate show to advocate for his opinion doesn't make him responsible for the insane backlash against his debate opponent.

I don't agree with his opinion on the issue, but I don't think he's being a crasshole.
I guess my back just goes up at the implication that these people should cease and desist because he is disgusted and has asked them to do so. I'm sorry, but why should his disgust weigh more significantly than that of the person at whom these hateful, threatening comments were directed? Would it be okay to say those things if he wasn't disgusted? Or was but didn't say so? Either way, it places the agency in the hands of misogynist crassholes who can choose whether to suggest that women who disagree with them should be assaulted - and I don't believe that all of those posters "didn't mean" what they said - or keep their horrible, ignorant opinions to themselves, but still have them.


I think he's probably saying that because he feels like his comments were construed somehow as an invitation or weird endorsement of the horrific comments that came out of this whole thing. I don't know that it's that he thinks he somehow has a more legitimate voice. I think it's more likely that he thinks that perhaps the people making the comments are more likely to listen to him, which is, sucky though it may be, true.

This whole thing sucks, but I really don't think Jim Norton should get blame for anything other than having a kind of dumb opinion about rape jokes.
Fair enough. I'm glad I generally don't pay attention to comics.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 9:18 pm 
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Ugh this whole thing just makes me sick. I have so many thoughts...just a few things rolling around in my brain:

-him saying he doesn't want to tell people how to respond to her (i.e., "thought policing") and only encourages commenters to respond to Lindy more intelligently. Uh...what? It's ok to tell people to stop threatening to rape a woman. Really. It's actually the responsible/decent/human thing to do and what he's doing is cowardly.
-I'm so effing sick of dudes telling me to relax about rape jokes. When you've been assaulted , are on guard 24/7, or as I've experienced, had a crasshole call you a croissant and threaten to rape you and then chase you because you didn't respond positively to his street harassment while just trying to walk your dog, don't tell me what is or isn't funny about trivializing violence against women, making victims the punchline, or using the word rape to mean anything other than sexual assault. Every argument this guy makes is proof he doesn't fricking get it (even if he says he does). He can't see past his own privilege.
-Lindy has been forwarding all these terrible tweets to him as an example of what rape culture is and its pervasiveness. No response.
-his interview on Opie & Anthony where the hosts chuckle over the term rape culture and say its annoying to hear people talk about white male privilege. They can all suck on a lemon. Seriously.
-I'm very curious how people bashing Lindy West would respond to other minority groups who takes issues over jokes about violence against them. Would they be so cavalier?

I think I need to take a break from the Internet and go look at some kitty pics.

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