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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 2:52 pm 
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j-dub wrote:
Would you feel okay having T or a friend go on your facebook to block him?

And this is a completely, entirely, 100% normal way to react. I get tons of calls at work from women in similar situations--something traumatic happened a long time ago and they felt like they had processed it and essentially forgotten about it and then something happens to trigger them and they are thrown entirely for a loop. Unfortunately, this is just the way that trauma works--you don't heal in a linear fashion and there are certain things that may always trigger you. I think the real work of healing from trauma is accepting that it will always be this really shitty thing that happened that it will sometimes come out of nowhere and knock you sideways and that your best bet is to find some coping mechanisms that are healthy and safe. If you need extra support I'd encourage you to connect with a women's centre/sexual assault centre, and if you ever want book recommendations on healing from sexual trauma I'm happy to provide some.


It turns out that you can just block people from inside your privacy settings, so I did that. Thanks for making me feel slightly less crazy. I think I just feel most ridiculous because what happened to me is really so minor compared to what has happened to so many others. I dated a guy once that really drilled it into my head that nothing truly bad has ever happened to me, and so I didn't deserve to be depressed (this was when I in the depths of depression and anxiety). His brother had had cancer, so as long as nothing as huge as that happened to me, I needed to get the fork over it. He strongly believed that emotional pain is relative. I know he's wrong. I know that. But it got pretty deeply embedded in my mind. I always feel bad for feeling bad, because I know worse shiitake has happened to others, that really I'm very lucky. I have a hard time taking my emotions seriously, even when I'm feeling them the hardest. Like, when I was crying this morning, it was as if I was having two overwhelming feelings at once: this uncontrollable pain in my solar plexus that was making my eyes leak, and then in the back of my mind, shame and guilt and a tiny bit of eye rolling for being so dramatic.

Guh, that sounds totally forked up.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 2:53 pm 
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Vantine wrote:
The treatment of Rachel Jeantel by the press as well as George Zimmerman's attorney's is beyond the pale. There are so many layers of racism and sexism there...
It is indeed a complex and horrific shitstorm of bigotry, privilege, and kneejerk assumptions about identity, gender, race, class, education, etc. Another friend shared this great piece by one of her colleagues; so much to think about here.

http://thefeministwire.com/2013/07/reading-rachel/

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 3:09 pm 
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I just need to correct this:

Mr. Shankly wrote:
Tofulish has brought up multiple times how it can hurt her when someone tells her that they would have reacted different in a situation she was put in and what is happening here feels very similar to that.


My actual point was that sometimes people who want to support us can inadvertently be invalidating when they use the superhero type of imagery - "I would have punched him and made him run crying for his Mama!" That's all. I certainly would never say that someone should feel hurt if another person says they would have reacted differently. We all react differently to things, its the beauty of being human and having vastly different life experience that inform our reactions.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 3:58 pm 
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molasses jane wrote:
I don't understand why it's okay to feel "stabby" and "punching" about child wigs or sexualized onesies, but not for someone else to make a similar joke about a "cricket bat of doom."
Good point; I still think it's weird to put babies in drag, but I retract that part of my comment[s]. I will however note that my hyperbolic "stabbiness" wasn't directed at anyone, and I theorized about punching "stuff" as opposed to people (i.e. objects vs. subjects). But the point is still taken!

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 4:37 pm 
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Desdemona wrote:
Whoa, Nellie. I don't know how old you are, so apologies (but not really) if I'm schooling a teenager, but there are a few things about your post I find extremely disturbing. A. It seems particularly bothersome to you to be objectified by "older dudes" ("this maybe 40 year old dude" - OMG, amazing he can still walk, much less ogle you while you're stretching, amirite?!); B. you're also at seemingly disingenuous pains to express how "just plain gross [it is] to know that some disrespectful crasshole was looking at [your] body as a sexual object," as if this is a foreign (albeit admittedly nasty) concept with which you have been hitherto unfamiliar; and C. your reference to the "cricket bat of doom" with which you'd like to do some "ball-smashing" makes me super uncomfortable. Not cool; not feminist.


I'm 20, so he was a bit older than me. I find men's infatuation with younger women a bit disturbing. If an older man hits on me like that, i can pretty much assume he's not looking for a companion to spend quality time with. If it's a guy my age, well i still don't like it, but it's a lot less predatory. It's not a foreign concept for men to view me like that, and in my opinion that makes it worse. I shouldn't be half expecting every guy i pass on the street who stares at me to make an inappropriate comment, but unfortunately it happens frequently enough that i do. For the record, i do not think a man who stares at me and calls me baby deserves a ballsmashing. He deserves a nice stern talking to while i hold my cricket bat, that way he knows not to mess with me and that i mean business. And maybe so he knows what it feels like to be mildly harassed by someone more powerful than you. The last part of my post was in reference to the pain i feel knowing that so many other people experience harassment so much worse than what i go through. Although i am a non-violent person and this is more of a comic book fantasy than anything, i do believe people who violate others bodies physically deserve to have their balls smashed.

I wouldn't have even posted about it if the guy just looked at me. Yeah, it was a bit weird and i didn't like it, but i didn't get angry until he called me baby and laughed as i walked away without saying anything. I understand that if i go in public people will look at me. I understand that if i am wearing a swimsuit and go to the pool, men are going to look at my body and in all likelihood some of them will think of it in a sexual way. I understand that people are going to hit on me, but it's all about the way they do it. If he has said "Hi, how are you?" in a polite way, addressing me as a fellow human being, i would have responded kindly and told him i am not interested and been on my way. But instead he decided to call me a term that makes me feel uncomfortable, and that is where the problem lies.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 4:39 pm 
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Desdemona wrote:
molasses jane wrote:
I don't understand why it's okay to feel "stabby" and "punching" about child wigs or sexualized onesies, but not for someone else to make a similar joke about a "cricket bat of doom."
Good point; I still think it's weird to put babies in drag, but I retract that part of my comment[s]. I will however note that my hyperbolic "stabbiness" wasn't directed at anyone, and I theorized about punching "stuff" as opposed to people (i.e. objects vs. subjects). But the point is still taken!


While I am relieved that you have finally admitted, albeit only partially and reluctantly that you might have been wrong. I must say, that you wandered quite far into what was nothing short of victim blaming and bullying. I think reading your posts has been stressful and somewhat traumatizing for others as well as myself. And quite a lot of bullshiitake from you was slung about before you admitted a reluctant defeat (which I'm sure is how you see it) I think you owe the OP and your fellow women an humble apology on this one.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 4:53 pm 
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pandacookie wrote:
annabazoo wrote:
Ugh. One day i'll gain superpowers and bring justice to the world, with my un-shaven pubic area and cricket bat of doom. If you'll excuse the vulgarity, there is plenty of ball-smashing to be done.

I'm not interested in the semantics debate, but have you ever read any Hothead Paisan?


I haven't, but a quick google search makes me want to. I write about a zillion different comics in my head, and one of them is about a girl who beats up rapists and other bad people. High school student by day, buttkicker by night.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 4:56 pm 
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annabazoo wrote:
pandacookie wrote:
annabazoo wrote:
Ugh. One day i'll gain superpowers and bring justice to the world, with my un-shaven pubic area and cricket bat of doom. If you'll excuse the vulgarity, there is plenty of ball-smashing to be done.

I'm not interested in the semantics debate, but have you ever read any Hothead Paisan?


I haven't, but a quick google search makes me want to. I write about a zillion different comics in my head, and one of them is about a girl who beats up rapists and other bad people. High school student by day, buttkicker by night.


Can I also recommend Buffy the Vampire Slayer, if you haven't already seen it? :o)

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 5:01 pm 
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annabazoo wrote:
i do believe people who violate others bodies physically deserve to have their balls smashed.


One physical violation doesn't justify another in my view. The problem I see is that, much like those who say rapists deserve to be raped, the minute you say that certain physical violations are justifiable and ok, you head down a slippery slope. We always hear people say that rape victims "deserved it" whether for drinking or dressing a certain way or doing certain things. I wish we could all agree that physical violence against others just isn't okay.

And re Des' point - I think there is a big difference between "feeling stabby" which isn't directed to anyone and wanting to smash someone's balls with a cricket bat. And I think this is consistent with the PPK community standards, which are different from other groups. That was why I used the example of the woman who fatshamed me - we as a community would all agree that it was inappropriate for me to talk about smashing her genitals in. Just as we don't talk about smashing others who make us feel bad - no matter who they are - if an omni makes us feel bad about our food choices, we as a community agree its not okay to say that you want to smash their teeth in.

I think this is an interesting parallel to what we saw with the ExVegans.Com thread. The ExVegans.Com site community may think that saying ex-vegans should be smashed in the face or brutalized in other ways is okay, but the PPK doesn't. And that is why I love the PPK.

And for the record, I don't think Des owes anyone an apology for being part of a spirited discussion - we are all grown-ups who can disagree on our points of view, without taking it personally or making ad hominem attacks.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 5:13 pm 
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This is a difficult dilemma. I DO NOT support ballsmashing, unless you are physically defending yourself, in which case i support doing whatever you can to get away. However, i read stories of the terrible things people do, and i get very angry and emotional, and i wish these bad people would be hurt. In reality i am a very non-violent person. I just wish everyone would get along and stop hurting one another. But, like i said, i have comic-book fantasies in which i am a superhero who goes around in the night saving victims and bringing pain to wrongdoers.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 5:14 pm 
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Also, older men can be interested in the company of younger women. You're 20, not 13.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 5:16 pm 
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I don't think its a fair comparison to the ex-vegan site. Ex-vegans don't attack people who then have to deal with the trauma. Revenge fantasies are incredibly common for survivors of sexual assault and can be part of the healing process, and she has specifically said that this is part of a fantasy, not something she'd actually do. I can admit I've fantasized about revenge, but I don't think I'd ever do it.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 5:18 pm 
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Tofulish wrote:
And re Des' point - I think there is a big difference between "feeling stabby" which isn't directed to anyone and wanting to smash someone's balls with a cricket bat. And I think this is consistent with the PPK community standards, which are different from other groups.


The OP said "Ugh. One day i'll gain superpowers and bring justice to the world, with my un-shaven pubic area and cricket bat of doom. If you'll excuse the vulgarity, there is plenty of ball-smashing to be done." She did not say she wanted to smash the guy at the pool's balls, any more than Desdemona said she wanted to stab or push someone in particular, which is part of the reason why what some have perceived as a ganging up on the OP about violent language when describing feeling violated seems entirely unwarranted, and beyond a regular ol' PPK "grown up" difference of opinions.

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Last edited by molasses jane on Sat Jul 06, 2013 5:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 5:19 pm 
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allularpunk wrote:
Also, older men can be interested in the company of younger women. You're 20, not 13.


But lots of men fetishize younger woman. Its a thing. When I turned 19, mom asked me to work in her bar. There was an older guy (forties? fifites?) who sexually harassed me every time he came in, stared at me, kept calling me "little girl", touched me inappropriately, and when he asked how old I was and I said "19", he responded "15?" With a huge smile on his face, like that excited him. At 19 I didn't know much about sexual harassment and it didn't change much when I turned 20 either, and while its creepy coming from any guy, it did add another dimension of creep.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 5:20 pm 
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jean wrote:
Desdemona wrote:
molasses jane wrote:
I don't understand why it's okay to feel "stabby" and "punching" about child wigs or sexualized onesies, but not for someone else to make a similar joke about a "cricket bat of doom."
Good point; I still think it's weird to put babies in drag, but I retract that part of my comment[s]. I will however note that my hyperbolic "stabbiness" wasn't directed at anyone, and I theorized about punching "stuff" as opposed to people (i.e. objects vs. subjects). But the point is still taken!


While I am relieved that you have finally admitted, albeit only partially and reluctantly that you might have been wrong.
I beg your pardon? I have not and do not admit that I was "wrong," and all my statements have been made with as much clarity as I could manage. The post you quote above refers to my inconsistency of my own rhetoric.
jean wrote:
I must say, that you wandered quite far into what was nothing short of victim blaming and bullying.
I disagree, but am frankly not sufficiently interested to engage with you on this point.
jean wrote:
I think reading your posts has been stressful and somewhat traumatizing for others as well as myself. And quite a lot of bullshiitake from you was slung about before you admitted a reluctant defeat (which I'm sure is how you see it) I think you owe the OP and your fellow women an humble apology on this one.
Well, that's a whole bunch of completely wrong assumptions right there. I can't speak to the experiences of people who are not me any better than you can (although you apparently feel qualified to do so), but I can assure you that you are mistaken in thinking I feel in any way "defeated" (again with the hyperbole) to say nothing of your wholly erroneous presumption in imagining you could be "sure" how I see anything.

And now if you'll excuse me, this type of circular discourse is not only tiring but apparently futile; I've spent far too much time and energy here already, and I have work to do.

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Last edited by Desdemona on Sat Jul 06, 2013 5:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 5:23 pm 
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In response to ShyMox:

Yeah, but there's a big difference between fetishizing/harassing and being interested in a younger woman for a relationship. The OP said it in a way that made it sound like just because the guy was older, there was something wrong with him finding her attractive and that there is no way he could be interested in more than sex. Maybe that guy was only interested in sex, but I do not like the generalization that all older men are perverts if they like younger women.

And yes, I'm dating a guy that's 14 years older than me. And lo and behold! We have conversations and he cares about me outside of the bedroom!

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 5:28 pm 
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allularpunk wrote:
In response to ShyMox:

Yeah, but there's a big difference between fetishizing/harassing and being interested in a younger woman for a relationship. The OP said it in a way that made it sound like just because the guy was older, there was something wrong with him finding her attractive and that there is no way he could be interested in more than sex. Maybe that guy was only interested in sex, but I do not like the generalization that all older men are perverts if they like younger women.

And yes, I'm dating a guy that's 14 years older than me. And lo and behold! We have conversations and he cares about me outside of the bedroom!


And I get why you would feel defensive about it, but this guy was street harassing her and his age added that creep factor, again. It wasn't simply that an old guy was quietly possibly maybe checking her out. He decided to harass her.

Maybe its because when younger men do it we have this mentality of "boys will be boys", (see Steubenville), but with older men we expect them to be above childish shiitake. Or "old and set in their ways".

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 5:30 pm 
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annabazoo wrote:

I'm 20, so he was a bit older than me. I find men's infatuation with younger women a bit disturbing. If an older man hits on me like that, i can pretty much assume he's not looking for a companion to spend quality time with.



This is what I'm talking about. She is generalizing, not just talking about that one guy.

ETA: although in re-reading she does say if he hits on her 'like that', which is specific to the situation. Still sounds like she's saying that older men aren't allowed to be attracted to (physically or otherwise) younger women.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 5:32 pm 
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I don't understand why everyone is picking apart AnnaBazoo to such an incredible degree. She came in here, a thread 91 pages long and full of stories where people describe not feeling safe/comfortable, to report her experience feeling ogled at a pool in part because of her body/expressed gender. This is consistent with so many other stories in this thread. Plenty of people in this thread and elsewhere use language akin to 'smashing' the patriarchy. Plenty of posts in this thread are directed at men or other people in situations of power creating spaces and situations in which people no matter if they identify as male or female or something else, feel unsafe. That does not mean that the people telling stories are implicating all men, all construction workers, all soldiers, whatever. The point in this story seems to be that AnnaBazoo shared feeling scared and vulnerable, and then there was a lot of rhetoric directed at her that seems out of proportion with the otherwise supposedly supportive atmosphere of kvetching set up in this thread. From my view, it does seem pretty disproportionate. Desdemona explained her logic, and admitted some inconsistency in her rhetoric. Why is this one story attracting so much vitriol and nitpicking?

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 5:34 pm 
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Shy Mox wrote:
allularpunk wrote:
In response to ShyMox:

Yeah, but there's a big difference between fetishizing/harassing and being interested in a younger woman for a relationship. The OP said it in a way that made it sound like just because the guy was older, there was something wrong with him finding her attractive and that there is no way he could be interested in more than sex. Maybe that guy was only interested in sex, but I do not like the generalization that all older men are perverts if they like younger women.

And yes, I'm dating a guy that's 14 years older than me. And lo and behold! We have conversations and he cares about me outside of the bedroom!


And I get why you would feel defensive about it, but this guy was street harassing her and his age added that creep factor, again. It wasn't simply that an old guy was quietly possibly maybe checking her out. He decided to harass her.

Maybe its because when younger men do it we have this mentality of "boys will be boys", (see Steubenville), but with older men we expect them to be above childish shiitake. Or "old and set in their ways".


I think there's a definite creep factor when older dudes ("older" relative to who they are hitting on - if you're old enough to have participated in conceiving the person you are hitting on, that's old) are all up on young women. Obviously there's exceptions to the rule and AP is invested in the conversation because she's dating an older man, but AP, you're also 30 (or older?). I get seriously disturbed when I see old dudes ogling young girls. Mainly because if you're ogling someone like that, chances are you're not super interested in a relationship with them...what with the victimizing on the street and all. I think it plays into pornography culture and the fetishization of youth, but that's a whole other conversation in a whole other thread.

eta: anecdote: I used to eat lunch with some older men at my work, and I had to stop because the way they talked about young women was like they were some token...like if you were dating a young woman that was worthy of a high-five, as opposed to if you were dating someone more your age no one would care. Also, they'd refer to women in their 20s as "girls". I found it really disturbing.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 5:34 pm 
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allularpunk wrote:
annabazoo wrote:

I'm 20, so he was a bit older than me. I find men's infatuation with younger women a bit disturbing. If an older man hits on me like that, i can pretty much assume he's not looking for a companion to spend quality time with.



This is what I'm talking about. She is generalizing, not just talking about that one guy.

ETA: although in re-reading she does say if he hits on her 'like that', which is specific to the situation. Still sounds like she's saying that older men aren't allowed to be attracted to (physically or otherwise) younger women.


This whole thread is full of generalizations! AnnaBazoo's story isn't at all about your relationship any more than someone saying she feels angry that a construction worker hit on her isn't telling a story about all construction workers.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 5:34 pm 
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molasses jane wrote:
I don't understand why everyone is picking apart AnnaBazoo to such an incredible degree. She came in here, a thread 91 pages long and full of stories where people describe not feeling safe/comfortable, to report her experience feeling ogled at a pool in part because of her body/expressed gender. This is consistent with so many other stories in this thread. Plenty of people in this thread and elsewhere use language akin to 'smashing' the patriarchy. Plenty of posts in this thread are directed at men or other people in situations of power creating spaces and situations in which people no matter if they identify as male or female or something else, feel unsafe. That does not mean that the people telling stories are implicating all men, all construction workers, all soldiers, whatever. The point in this story seems to be that AnnaBazoo shared feeling scared and vulnerable, and then there was a lot of rhetoric directed at her that seems out of proportion with the otherwise supposedly supportive atmosphere of kvetching set up in this thread. From my view, it does seem pretty disproportionate. Desdemona explained her logic, and admitted some inconsistency in her rhetoric. Why is this one story attracting so much vitriol and nitpicking?


I didn't have any problems with it until the ageist thing was said. Just defending some perfectly acceptable human behavior. (The attraction, not the harassment, obviously.)

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 5:36 pm 
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molasses jane wrote:
I don't understand why everyone is picking apart AnnaBazoo to such an incredible degree. She came in here, a thread 91 pages long and full of stories where people describe not feeling safe/comfortable, to report her experience feeling ogled at a pool in part because of her body/expressed gender. This is consistent with so many other stories in this thread. Plenty of people in this thread and elsewhere use language akin to 'smashing' the patriarchy. Plenty of posts in this thread are directed at men or other people in situations of power creating spaces and situations in which people no matter if they identify as male or female or something else, feel unsafe. That does not mean that the people telling stories are implicating all men, all construction workers, all soldiers, whatever. The point in this story seems to be that AnnaBazoo shared feeling scared and vulnerable, and then there was a lot of rhetoric directed at her that seems out of proportion with the otherwise supposedly supportive atmosphere of kvetching set up in this thread. From my view, it does seem pretty disproportionate. Desdemona explained her logic, and admitted some inconsistency in her rhetoric. Why is this one story attracting so much vitriol and nitpicking?


Yeah, I'd really like to know, as well. It seems everyone is taking a piece of what she's saying SO PERSONALLY ("hey! She said older guys hitting on young girls is gross! What a jerk!" "Hey, she called me old, what a jerk!" "Hey, she sounds like she is literally inciting violence whereas when I say "feeling stabby" it's okay!") and it's super annoying. STOP BEING ANNOYING.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 5:37 pm 
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allularpunk wrote:
molasses jane wrote:
I don't understand why everyone is picking apart AnnaBazoo to such an incredible degree. She came in here, a thread 91 pages long and full of stories where people describe not feeling safe/comfortable, to report her experience feeling ogled at a pool in part because of her body/expressed gender. This is consistent with so many other stories in this thread. Plenty of people in this thread and elsewhere use language akin to 'smashing' the patriarchy. Plenty of posts in this thread are directed at men or other people in situations of power creating spaces and situations in which people no matter if they identify as male or female or something else, feel unsafe. That does not mean that the people telling stories are implicating all men, all construction workers, all soldiers, whatever. The point in this story seems to be that AnnaBazoo shared feeling scared and vulnerable, and then there was a lot of rhetoric directed at her that seems out of proportion with the otherwise supposedly supportive atmosphere of kvetching set up in this thread. From my view, it does seem pretty disproportionate. Desdemona explained her logic, and admitted some inconsistency in her rhetoric. Why is this one story attracting so much vitriol and nitpicking?


I didn't have any problems with it until the ageist thing was said. Just defending some perfectly acceptable human behavior. (The attraction, not the harassment, obviously.)


It's not ageist to admit that older men in our culture possess more power than younger women, hence the power dynamic AB is describing.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 5:39 pm 
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It was not just because the guy was older. I said: If an older man hits on me like that, i can pretty much assume he's not looking for a companion to spend quality time. Specifically, if he hits on me like that. Had he not called me baby, had he not been oogling me for fifteen minutes, then it would have been a different story. If ANY man hits on me like that, i will assume that they want me for little more than sex.
That being said, i apologize for generalizing about older men, and couples with large age differences. Really, once you reach adulthood, age shouldn't be a factor at all. The most important thing is that the couple has a happy, healthy relationship, regardless of how old they are. Every one of my friends who has dated a much older man has been abused or taken advantage of, so my past experiences have made me biased against older men who pursue younger women. But i understand that not every man is like that, and being attracted to younger women does not make an older man a pervert.

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