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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 2:11 pm 
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SassyOh wrote:
Out of NOWHERE, she blurts out that her ex-husband left her for a fifteen-year-old girl--he was in his mid-thirties--but that the girl knew exactly what she was doing and purposefully seduced him. Her brain, she continued, was fully developed, and she's a still a slut. A friend of mine pointed out that it might be easier to demonize the fifteen-year-old victim rather than accept that the father of her children is a sexual predator


YIKES and YIKES some more. I mean, obviously it's different when you're in her shoes and facing that situation first hand, but even so, a 15 year old girl in this situation is just a victim and nothing else.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 3:54 pm 
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SassyOh wrote:
I recently met a woman who has teenage children. We were talking about brain development, and how the brain isn't fully developed until the early twenties, which partly accounts for things teenagers do that seem irrational or odd. Out of NOWHERE, she blurts out that her ex-husband left her for a fifteen-year-old girl--he was in his mid-thirties--but that the girl knew exactly what she was doing and purposefully seduced him. Her brain, she continued, was fully developed, and she's a still a slut. A friend of mine pointed out that it might be easier to demonize the fifteen-year-old victim rather than accept that the father of her children is a sexual predator, and on some level I understand that (sort of, I guess, maybe?) but I found it really upsetting. I told the woman that I couldn't agree with her, changed the subject, and made a quick exit.
I...whoa. Good self control there; I don't know if I'd have been able to help exploding.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 4:29 pm 
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Get ready for your blood to boil.

Few years ago the Sexual Assault Centre of Edmonton created an ad campaign about sexual assault called "don't be that guy" http://www.savedmonton.com/our-campaigns.html. The images were powerful and well done and I think really challenged what many people think about when they think about sexual assault. I saw them fairly widely distributed in at least a couple of Canadian cities.

Well, a group calling themselves "men's rights Edmonton" (bbaaarrrf) have started a little ad campaign themselves by putting up posters around the city reminding everyone that women are sluts and lie about sexual assault when they regret one-nights stands (among other things).
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/ ... sters.html
http://www.cbc.ca/news/yourcommunity/20 ... tions.html

If you prefer not to spend the rest of your day in a blind rage screaming at your computer, don't read the comments.


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 4:41 pm 
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I'm a male who went to a small college that was about 90% female (they used to be a women only college and their 2 biggest programs are in elementary ed and nursing). I was a Sociology major which was a tiny program. Almost all of my SOC courses were taught by the same two women (the chair of the Soc Dept. and her sister). I respected the hell out of them as they were thee two best professors I had ever had, and were wonderful people to boot. I wasn't really conscious of it at the time, because they never outright said it, but they were somewhere between radical and Marxist Feminists. As you would imagine, when I went for my MA in Sociology at another University, I became aware of the fact that I too now had predominantly feminist leanings. Not surprising, as these two women were huge influences on me.

Fast forward to today... I occasionally (borderline "frequently") have to point my wife's sexist attitudes to her and it drives me up the wall. Eg. she's a embarrassed to tell her co-workers that I do all of the cooking, I was going to make her Isa's butterscotch cupcakes but she insisted I email her the recipe because "she should be the one baking". I also call her on her BS when she refuses to let me to teach her stuff that she perceives as "men's" jobs, like checking the oil in her car and using tools to do simple things like hang picture frames. The examples go on and on.

Now I love my wife and she is truly a wonderful person, so it's not a "real" sense of tension, more a pet peave of mine. But finding this thread, I felt it a rare opportunity to have an audience to vent about it..


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 5:04 pm 
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studio wrote:
Get ready for your blood to boil.

Few years ago the Sexual Assault Centre of Edmonton created an ad campaign about sexual assault called "don't be that guy" http://www.savedmonton.com/our-campaigns.html. The images were powerful and well done and I think really challenged what many people think about when they think about sexual assault. I saw them fairly widely distributed in at least a couple of Canadian cities.

Well, a group calling themselves "men's rights Edmonton" (bbaaarrrf) have started a little ad campaign themselves by putting up posters around the city reminding everyone that women are sluts and lie about sexual assault when they regret one-nights stands (among other things).
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/ ... sters.html
http://www.cbc.ca/news/yourcommunity/20 ... tions.html

If you prefer not to spend the rest of your day in a blind rage screaming at your computer, don't read the comments.


I can't even let myself get angry about this because right now because I could explode with rage. I don't understand people. I just can't comprehend the level of ignorance that some people are happy to be in possession of.


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 5:27 pm 
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Tynamite wrote:
I'm a male who went to a small college that was about 90% female (they used to be a women only college and their 2 biggest programs are in elementary ed and nursing). I was a Sociology major which was a tiny program. Almost all of my SOC courses were taught by the same two women (the chair of the Soc Dept. and her sister). I respected the hell out of them as they were thee two best professors I had ever had, and were wonderful people to boot. I wasn't really conscious of it at the time, because they never outright said it, but they were somewhere between radical and Marxist Feminists. As you would imagine, when I went for my MA in Sociology at another University, I became aware of the fact that I too now had predominantly feminist leanings. Not surprising, as these two women were huge influences on me.

Fast forward to today... I occasionally (borderline "frequently") have to point my wife's sexist attitudes to her and it drives me up the wall. Eg. she's a embarrassed to tell her co-workers that I do all of the cooking, I was going to make her Isa's butterscotch cupcakes but she insisted I email her the recipe because "she should be the one baking". I also call her on her BS when she refuses to let me to teach her stuff that she perceives as "men's" jobs, like checking the oil in her car and using tools to do simple things like hang picture frames. The examples go on and on.

Now I love my wife and she is truly a wonderful person, so it's not a "real" sense of tension, more a pet peave of mine. But finding this thread, I felt it a rare opportunity to have an audience to vent about it..

I really appreciate you writing this and I think it's awesome that you're not letting sexist ideas slide.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 5:55 pm 
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I think I was just mansplained to on fb? Actually, I'm not sure if the person was mansplaining or is a condescending tool who just happens to be a man.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 6:02 pm 
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Mr. Shankly wrote:
I really appreciate you writing this and I think it's awesome that you're not letting sexist ideas slide.


Thanks, I re-read my rant though and just wanted to iterate that I didn't post in any attempt to get any female accolade (I can see how it might be misinterpreted that way). I just read the thread title "Who challenges your feminism in your life?" and I immediately thought "My frickin wife, that's who!!!" and my leftist sensibilities got a little worked up.


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 7:23 pm 
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studio wrote:
Get ready for your blood to boil.

Few years ago the Sexual Assault Centre of Edmonton created an ad campaign about sexual assault called "don't be that guy" http://www.savedmonton.com/our-campaigns.html. The images were powerful and well done and I think really challenged what many people think about when they think about sexual assault. I saw them fairly widely distributed in at least a couple of Canadian cities.

Well, a group calling themselves "men's rights Edmonton" (bbaaarrrf) have started a little ad campaign themselves by putting up posters around the city reminding everyone that women are sluts and lie about sexual assault when they regret one-nights stands (among other things).
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/ ... sters.html
http://www.cbc.ca/news/yourcommunity/20 ... tions.html

If you prefer not to spend the rest of your day in a blind rage screaming at your computer, don't read the comments.


Can we call a spade a spade and acknowledge them as rapist rights activists?

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 10:14 am 
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Shy Mox wrote:
studio wrote:
Get ready for your blood to boil.

Few years ago the Sexual Assault Centre of Edmonton created an ad campaign about sexual assault called "don't be that guy" http://www.savedmonton.com/our-campaigns.html. The images were powerful and well done and I think really challenged what many people think about when they think about sexual assault. I saw them fairly widely distributed in at least a couple of Canadian cities.

Well, a group calling themselves "men's rights Edmonton" (bbaaarrrf) have started a little ad campaign themselves by putting up posters around the city reminding everyone that women are sluts and lie about sexual assault when they regret one-nights stands (among other things).
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/ ... sters.html
http://www.cbc.ca/news/yourcommunity/20 ... tions.html

If you prefer not to spend the rest of your day in a blind rage screaming at your computer, don't read the comments.


Can we call a spade a spade and acknowledge them as rapist rights activists?
Seriously. I feel like I'm going to throw up.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 10:34 am 
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Somebody posted this graphic based on data from the Canadian Women's Foundation, in response to the cbc blog that studio posted.

Really shows you how ridiculous it is to spin it as though men are the ones being targeted by women. Not to mention that the injustice of being falsely accused pales in comparison to the physical, psychological, and emotional trauma of rape.

Image


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 10:36 am 
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Desdemona wrote:
SassyOh wrote:
I recently met a woman who has teenage children. We were talking about brain development, and how the brain isn't fully developed until the early twenties, which partly accounts for things teenagers do that seem irrational or odd. Out of NOWHERE, she blurts out that her ex-husband left her for a fifteen-year-old girl--he was in his mid-thirties--but that the girl knew exactly what she was doing and purposefully seduced him. Her brain, she continued, was fully developed, and she's a still a slut. A friend of mine pointed out that it might be easier to demonize the fifteen-year-old victim rather than accept that the father of her children is a sexual predator, and on some level I understand that (sort of, I guess, maybe?) but I found it really upsetting. I told the woman that I couldn't agree with her, changed the subject, and made a quick exit.
I...whoa. Good self control there; I don't know if I'd have been able to help exploding.


It was a work-related function so I couldn't give her a piece of my mind.


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 11:00 am 
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Tynamite wrote:
Somebody posted this graphic based on data from the Canadian Women's Foundation, in response to the cbc blog that studio posted.

Really shows you how ridiculous it is to spin it as though men are the ones being targeted by women. Not to mention that the injustice of being falsely accused pales in comparison to the physical, psychological, and emotional trauma of rape.

Image


Where do they get the number for rapes that aren't reported?

I'd also disagree that being falsely accused pales in comparison to the trauma of rape. I think comparing stuff like that is unproductive, but I'd also point out that there ARE innocent men whose lives have been ruined by false accusations. I don't think it's particularly positive for anyone to try and pretend that that doesn't happen. It obviously does, and I imagine that those of us who want to strike a blow for rape and sexual assault survivors would do well to do better than just deny it.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 11:07 am 
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SassyOh wrote:
Desdemona wrote:
SassyOh wrote:
I recently met a woman who has teenage children. We were talking about brain development, and how the brain isn't fully developed until the early twenties, which partly accounts for things teenagers do that seem irrational or odd. Out of NOWHERE, she blurts out that her ex-husband left her for a fifteen-year-old girl--he was in his mid-thirties--but that the girl knew exactly what she was doing and purposefully seduced him. Her brain, she continued, was fully developed, and she's a still a slut. A friend of mine pointed out that it might be easier to demonize the fifteen-year-old victim rather than accept that the father of her children is a sexual predator, and on some level I understand that (sort of, I guess, maybe?) but I found it really upsetting. I told the woman that I couldn't agree with her, changed the subject, and made a quick exit.
I...whoa. Good self control there; I don't know if I'd have been able to help exploding.


It was a work-related function so I couldn't give her a piece of my mind.


What would that accomplish? She clearly is not in a good or healthy emotional state, so piling crepe on her about comments she will most likely (from what you said about the rest of the conversation) reexamine later would just make her defensive and kick her while she is already down.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 11:39 am 
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jordanpattern wrote:
Tynamite wrote:
Somebody posted this graphic based on data from the Canadian Women's Foundation, in response to the cbc blog that studio posted.

Really shows you how ridiculous it is to spin it as though men are the ones being targeted by women. Not to mention that the injustice of being falsely accused pales in comparison to the physical, psychological, and emotional trauma of rape.

*graphic*[/img]


Where do they get the number for rapes that aren't reported?

I'd also disagree that being falsely accused pales in comparison to the trauma of rape. I think comparing stuff like that is unproductive, but I'd also point out that there ARE innocent men whose lives have been ruined by false accusations. I don't think it's particularly positive for anyone to try and pretend that that doesn't happen. It obviously does, and I imagine that those of us who want to strike a blow for rape and sexual assault survivors would do well to do better than just deny it.


There's also the problematic issue of this chart, which first began being circulated in January of this year, being factually inaccurate (one issue being that it conflates false 'reporting' with false 'accusation.') Here is a fairly comprehensive article on why this infographic is educational, but sadly, inaccurate: http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/20 ... tions.html

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 12:00 pm 
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jordanpattern wrote:
Tynamite wrote:
Somebody posted this graphic based on data from the Canadian Women's Foundation, in response to the cbc blog that studio posted.

Really shows you how ridiculous it is to spin it as though men are the ones being targeted by women. Not to mention that the injustice of being falsely accused pales in comparison to the physical, psychological, and emotional trauma of rape.

Image


Where do they get the number for rapes that aren't reported?

I'd also disagree that being falsely accused pales in comparison to the trauma of rape. I think comparing stuff like that is unproductive, but I'd also point out that there ARE innocent men whose lives have been ruined by false accusations. I don't think it's particularly positive for anyone to try and pretend that that doesn't happen. It obviously does, and I imagine that those of us who want to strike a blow for rape and sexual assault survivors would do well to do better than just deny it.


I'm not familiar with the data collection methodology for this research project so I can't answer your first question.

Nobody is denying that false accusations occur (neither myself nor the graphic) as the chart shows false accusations on the bottom right. What the chart DOES illustrate and the point that I was trying to make... is that it is ridiculously inaccurate to paint a picture that MOST accusations of rape are merely false accusations. That is exactly what those flyers made by Men's Rights Edmonton would like you to believe. This graphic shows that false accusations aren't nearly as prevalent as they are trying to portray.

You can disagree all that you want with my opinion that rape is more egregious than falsely accusing. I respect your opinion but it doesn't change mine. Yes, both are terrible, I would never wish either on anyone. But to me, the worse thing you can inflict on another are physical acts of violence and degradation. Just my opinion, but I agree, debating which is worse would be a fruitless exercise.


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 12:04 pm 
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Erika Soyf*cker wrote:
There's also the problematic issue of this chart, which first began being circulated in January of this year, being factually inaccurate (one issue being that it conflates false 'reporting' with false 'accusation.') Here is a fairly comprehensive article on why this infographic is educational, but sadly, inaccurate: http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/20 ... tions.html


Yeah, I obviously can't vouch for the numbers, I just thought it was an interesting counter argument to the idea that most rape accusations are just false accusations.


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 12:26 pm 
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It's interesting. I actually see far more bias against those accused of rape than implications of those accusations being false. I suppose it's probably because I tend to interact with mostly pretty progressive folks and don't consume a lot of mass-market media, but I find it very grating that in most areas of criminal justice, we progressives tend to stick pretty staunchly to the "innocent until proven guilty" ideal, but where rape and sexual assault cases are concerned, it often feels to me like there's an implication that I'm a bad feminist or even a bad person if I don't immediately and unquestioningly believe the accusation. That rubs me the wrong way.

That said, I don't intend to come across as saying that I think there are a lot of false accusations out there, or that rape isn't a problem, or that under-reporting/under-charging of these cases isn't a problem (I *do* have a problem with organizations that call for more convictions since that is a legal matter that must be decided upon by the jury). Obviously, we need a better way to deal with these cases all the way down the line, from encouraging reporting, to police investigation, to charging decision, to trial.

Also, since you're new, just FYI, I am a woman. I know the name and avatar sometimes suggest I'm a man, and that sometimes colours how people read my responses, particularly in this thread.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 12:26 pm 
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Tynamite wrote:
I'm a male who went to a small college that was about 90% female (they used to be a women only college and their 2 biggest programs are in elementary ed and nursing). I was a Sociology major which was a tiny program. Almost all of my SOC courses were taught by the same two women (the chair of the Soc Dept. and her sister). I respected the hell out of them as they were thee two best professors I had ever had, and were wonderful people to boot. I wasn't really conscious of it at the time, because they never outright said it, but they were somewhere between radical and Marxist Feminists. As you would imagine, when I went for my MA in Sociology at another University, I became aware of the fact that I too now had predominantly feminist leanings. Not surprising, as these two women were huge influences on me.

Fast forward to today... I occasionally (borderline "frequently") have to point my wife's sexist attitudes to her and it drives me up the wall. Eg. she's a embarrassed to tell her co-workers that I do all of the cooking, I was going to make her Isa's butterscotch cupcakes but she insisted I email her the recipe because "she should be the one baking". I also call her on her BS when she refuses to let me to teach her stuff that she perceives as "men's" jobs, like checking the oil in her car and using tools to do simple things like hang picture frames. The examples go on and on.

Now I love my wife and she is truly a wonderful person, so it's not a "real" sense of tension, more a pet peave of mine. But finding this thread, I felt it a rare opportunity to have an audience to vent about it..

How does your wife respond if you point this stuff out? I always find it really difficult to point sexist stuff out to my boyfriend, but maybe thats mostly in my head.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 12:39 pm 
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jordanpattern wrote:
It's interesting. I actually see far more bias against those accused of rape than implications of those accusations being false. I suppose it's probably because I tend to interact with mostly pretty progressive folks and don't consume a lot of mass-market media, but I find it very grating that in most areas of criminal justice, we progressives tend to stick pretty staunchly to the "innocent until proven guilty" ideal, but where rape and sexual assault cases are concerned, it often feels to me like there's an implication that I'm a bad feminist or even a bad person if I don't immediately and unquestioningly believe the accusation. That rubs me the wrong way.

That said, I don't intend to come across as saying that I think there are a lot of false accusations out there, or that rape isn't a problem, or that under-reporting/under-charging of these cases isn't a problem (I *do* have a problem with organizations that call for more convictions since that is a legal matter that must be decided upon by the jury). Obviously, we need a better way to deal with these cases all the way down the line, from encouraging reporting, to police investigation, to charging decision, to trial.

Also, since you're new, just FYI, I am a woman. I know the name and avatar sometimes suggest I'm a man, and that sometimes colours how people read my responses, particularly in this thread.


I agree with everything you said here. I actually knew you were a woman (and I'd like to think it didn't affect my response to you). Since I'm new, I was in the thread where posters post up their picture up and saw the picture of you with your bike the other day : )

VeganinBerlin wrote:
How does your wife respond if you point this stuff out? I always find it really difficult to point sexist stuff out to my boyfriend, but maybe thats mostly in my head.


She either defends herself or just rolls her eyes.. depending on whether she feels like "playing".


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 2:20 pm 
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jordanpattern wrote:
It's interesting. I actually see far more bias against those accused of rape than implications of those accusations being false. I suppose it's probably because I tend to interact with mostly pretty progressive folks and don't consume a lot of mass-market media, but I find it very grating that in most areas of criminal justice, we progressives tend to stick pretty staunchly to the "innocent until proven guilty" ideal, but where rape and sexual assault cases are concerned, it often feels to me like there's an implication that I'm a bad feminist or even a bad person if I don't immediately and unquestioningly believe the accusation. That rubs me the wrong way.

That said, I don't intend to come across as saying that I think there are a lot of false accusations out there, or that rape isn't a problem, or that under-reporting/under-charging of these cases isn't a problem (I *do* have a problem with organizations that call for more convictions since that is a legal matter that must be decided upon by the jury). Obviously, we need a better way to deal with these cases all the way down the line, from encouraging reporting, to police investigation, to charging decision, to trial.

Also, since you're new, just FYI, I am a woman. I know the name and avatar sometimes suggest I'm a man, and that sometimes colours how people read my responses, particularly in this thread.


I remember recently, and I'm trying to be vague to protect identities, there was an accusation against someone, and it did come out false. Like it was blatantly proven. I believed the story until then. The difference is that in the criminal justice system, yeah that's your job, you're supposed to think innocent until proven guilty. In my work, I'm supposed to give victims the benefit of the doubt. I'd rather believe a fake story than ever make a survivor think I don't believe them. And it makes me literally sick to my stomach when other volunteers say that so and so is probably lying, just because they don't like so and so. And it happens a lot, despite what feminists say, many don't believe it when it someone they don't like or the accused is someone they like.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 2:33 pm 
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I think it has to do with the fact how horrible it feels not to be believed when you have been abused. It's the most horrible feeling I know. Every time I have been abused I put the blame on myself and when people don't believe you in a situation like this... it manifests itself really horribly.

I'm sure being falsely accused of being a rapist is horrible (and I really did like the movie Jagten/The Hunt), but not being believed when you've been abused is not being believed in a situation when you already went through a really traumatizing thing in the first place.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 4:25 pm 
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lavawitch wrote:
SassyOh wrote:
Desdemona wrote:
I...whoa. Good self control there; I don't know if I'd have been able to help exploding.


It was a work-related function so I couldn't give her a piece of my mind.


What would that accomplish? She clearly is not in a good or healthy emotional state, so piling crepe on her about comments she will most likely (from what you said about the rest of the conversation) reexamine later would just make her defensive and kick her while she is already down.


I understand what you're getting at, but I was just responding to Desdemona's comment that she might have had difficulty quelling her anger. I kept calm because I need my job, not because I have a greater measure of self-control than Desdemona. I can't say for certain what I would have done if it wasn't a work function. The odds of ever running into this woman socially and having a similar conversation are extremely low, but if it happened, it is very likely I would say more than, "I can't agree with you." I realize that the phrase 'a piece of my mind' carries more weight than I intended, but implying that I would 'pile crepe on her' is a bit unfair.


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 8:57 pm 
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I was responding to both the "exploding" and "piece of my mind."

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 8:20 am 
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lavawitch wrote:
I was responding to both the "exploding" and "piece of my mind."
I didn't mean that I would have actually "exploded" at the woman, but that my head would have exploded (in the figurative sense). That said, as someone who has raised three teenagers, I would have been sorely tempted to reiterate the cognitive, developmental issues already raised, and to point out that holding a 15 year old responsible for the choices made by an adult, married man with children of his own is not only illogical but sort of abusive. Then again, if it was at a work function and I didn't want A. an aneurysm or B. to continue what would likely be a fruitless argument that might make my professional environment more complicated/uncomfortable, I might have simply excused myself and headed for the bar.

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