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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 4:13 am 
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Six "fairtytales" for the "modern woman": http://thehairpin.com/2013/06/six-fairy ... ern-woman/.
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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 4:24 am 
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Jigglypuff wrote:
missdelaney wrote:
This is kind of triggering, I think, but I needed to get it out.

Spoiler: show
When a guy had sex with me after I had blacked out, I didn't think it was rape, even though I woke up shocked I was naked, floored there was a guy in my bed. Because my roommate saw us having sex and didn't think for a second to stop it, even though five minutes earlier, I had been passed out on the foot of my bed. I didn't think it was rape because all night I had been flirting with him- I hadn't even touched him...just talked. I had very, very obviously had too much to drink before we even left the bar, because I can't remember doing so.
And, until last night, it didn't hit me. This guy forking raped me. I did not consent. I couldn't consent, in the state I was in. And he isn't a bad guy. He didn't intentionally do it- he was drunk too, and it wasn't like he didn't have the idea I was into him. And, according to my roommate, I was pretty into it.

But I wasn't conscious.


I'm still fighting with myself over this. It was rape. But I'm having a difficult time owning up to it because, damn it, this is too subtle and confusing and is it really? Or was I just an idiot who drank too much? And I know that's stupid to think.

I'm confused. You got drunk and willingly had sex with him. He didn't force you, he didn't coerce you, he didn't liquor you up until your defenses were down. Why is it that he's a rapist for doing the exact same thing you did?

I'm very sorry for your pain over this - I just think it's out of line to call it rape.


I missed the willing part. Also this response challenges my feminism. Or just makes me sad.

Huge hugs Miss Delaney. Is this someone you know? Do you think you'd get some kind of closure/resolution if you spoke to the person? Do you feel up to seeking out a counselor? Maybe a calling a hotline? I think you've taken an important first step in coming to terms with what happened.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 6:44 am 
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Missdelaney doesn't use the word "willing" anywhere in her spoilered description of the events. She describes herself as not being conscious, passed out on the floor and unable to consent to sex in the state she was in. Sex without consent is rape.

I am pretty sad that anyone would characterize that as "you got drunk and willingly had sex with him." And to say "he didn't force you, he didn't coerce you, he didn't liquor you up" as though that negates the fact that she wasn't able to consent to sex, is also pretty shaming. And you assume that he was as drunk as she was and hence also couldn't consent, which we don't know to be the truth.

There are two standards for rape - a legal one that we'd use to convict where you have to meet an evidentiary standard to show that her partner didn't know that she was unable to consent and a second which is how we describe the events to ourselves and process them. No one is pressing charges here, and we will never know if the guy had any idea that missdelaney was too drunk to consent or took advantage of the situation (scooping someone off the floor while they are passed out drunk at the foot of their bed doesn't sound like the ideal situation to assume that your partner is consenting). We're not trying him in a court of law, so we don't need to think about his state of mind. Sex while blackout drunk is one of those situations which is really hard to prosecute legally because it is so hard to show that the person should have known she was unable to consent, but if she feels like it was rape, because she was not able to consent, and it helps her process what happened to her, then that should be up to her.

The Frisky did a response to a Dear Prudence column where DP urged a woman not to "ruin a man's life" by calling sex while blacked out rape, that is pretty useful: http://www.thefrisky.com/2012-02-03/dea ... lses-life/

I am so sorry for what happened to you missd. It sounds very violating to know that someone you trusted had sex with you while you were unconscious and your friends sat by and watched someone they knew you weren't into have sex with you, without intervening.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 7:02 am 
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The tl;dr on the Frisky article is that while drinking to the point where you blackout or are unconscious, is problematic and puts you at risk, it doesn't excuse other bad things that happen to you while you are unable to consent.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 7:15 am 
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I'm really sorry that happened to you missdelaney, it does sound confusing and hard and I totally get where you're coming from.

I've been wondering about this for a long time - in the case that both parties are drunk (which makes them both unable to legally consent) have both people raped each other? I guess I mean legally, I'm not really sure.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 7:41 am 
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Fee wrote:
I've been wondering about this for a long time - in the case that both parties are drunk (which makes them both unable to legally consent) have both people raped each other? I guess I mean legally, I'm not really sure.


Well showing guilt of rape legally would mean overcoming the presumption that no rape had occurred by showing that the person accused of rape should have known that the other person was not able to consent or not consenting. So you'd have two separate trials of each party - to ascertain what each knew or should have known. In practice, it would be nearly impossible to do.

Without making those showings, then no one has raped anyone legally. But the parties can describe what happened to them in the terms that help them process, so that would be up to the individuals, not the justice system.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 10:06 am 
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I guess I drew "willing" from her friend describing her as being into it. Her post also does not say that she was scooped up off the floor.

I had the same question as Fee. I don't think super drunk agreement to sex is meaningful to a person who is sober enough to know better, but I think the dynamics are hugely different for another person who is also impaired. For all we know, this guy could feel that he was assaulted by her.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 10:19 am 
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Jigglypuff wrote:
I guess I drew "willing" from her friend describing her as being into it. Her post also does not say that she was scooped up off the floor.

I had the same question as Fee. I don't think super drunk agreement to sex is meaningful to a person who is sober enough to know better, but I think the dynamics are hugely different for another person who is also impaired. For all we know, this guy could feel that he was assaulted by her.

It does say that she was passed out five minutes prior and woke up shocked to find herself naked and in bed with a guy. How you got "consent" from that is baffling to me.

In Canada, from a legal standpoint, even if both parties are drunk the onus is on the person initiating each sexual act to get consent--which is to say meaningful consent cannot be gotten if one or both parties are intoxicated. As Tofulish says, though, it is incredibly hard to prosecute, and as the vast, vast, vast majority of sexual assaults are not reported never mind prosecuted it is generally a moot point.
----

MissD I am so sorry that this happened to you. You did absolutely nothing wrong. I actually think that this kind of scenario is (depressingly) quite common--you feel incredibly violated because you were unable to give consent, he may not think of it as assault for various reasons. This isn't because of something you did, it's because we have a forked up rape culture that does not teach us what consent actually looks like. I would really encourage you to connect with a counselor or anti-violence organization to support you through processing and healing. Lots of love to you.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 10:24 am 
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I would not call "after I had blacked out" willing. I'm a little astonished anyone would.


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 10:33 am 
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annak wrote:
I would not call "after I had blacked out" willing. I'm a little astonished anyone would.

Is there some way of knowing that someone who is walking around and interacting with you has blacked out? I wouldn't know.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 10:37 am 
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Jigglypuff wrote:
annak wrote:
I would not call "after I had blacked out" willing. I'm a little astonished anyone would.

Is there some way of knowing that someone who is walking around and interacting with you has blacked out? I wouldn't know.

But it is your responsibility before initiating a sex-act with someone to ascertain whether they are capable of consent. It is unlikely, to my mind, that someone who is black-out drunk would be presenting themselves as capable of giving meaningful consent. Which is why, frankly, not having sex with a drunk person is just the ethical thing to do--because you don't know for sure!

And beyond that, the fact is, she was not capable of giving consent. It does not really matter if the guy intended to sexually assault her, which is what I think is the sticking point for you. What matters is that she was unable to give consent.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 10:46 am 
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My sticking point is that he was also incapable of giving consent and could very well have been the victim in this encounter. We don't know because she doesn't remember.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 10:49 am 
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How are you so sure that he was incapable of giving consent? And if he was initiating it, couldn't you logically assume that he was thereby consenting.

Furthermore, I feel you are completely out of line.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 11:00 am 
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She was blacked out and unable to give consent. If you were in court trying to defend him or something, then it would be different, but I see nothing in her story that makes me believe that the guy needs defending? Maybe he was a victim as well or maybe he was a huge rapist crasshole who preyed on her all night, we don't know. The only real fact we know is that she was black out drunk and woke up finding out she had sex without knowing it, without okaying it, and now feels violated. I don't know why that needs an argument, I would feel pretty violated too.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 11:03 am 
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ndpittman wrote:
Furthermore, I feel you are completely out of line.


Yeah, this.


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 11:10 am 
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Is this really happening?

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 11:11 am 
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I won't respond further to this topic since it's obviously bothering people. Moving on.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 11:11 am 
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Mr. Shankly wrote:
Is this really happening?


It's actually like feminism challenge inception or something.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 11:17 am 
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Yeah, I am kind of pissed that this conversation is going on.

I have had sex when so drunk that I barely remembered. The guy, when he found out, was incredibly apologetic and clearly felt terrible because he hadn't realised I was that drunk (nor did anybody else). That wasn't rape. I was clearly into him, wanted to have sex with him and I know that I consented, albeit drunkenly. I wasn't passed out. Pretty sure being passed out removes the ability to consent.


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 11:25 am 
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I'm pretty disgusted that a PPKer would post something so deeply personal and traumatic here and not only be criticized as a result but then have a debate going on about the details of who did what and how legal that is.

I don't necessarily feel that the title of this thread is an invitation to challenge each other.

Regardless of the minor details, the OP is basically sharing with us that she had a questionable experience that challenges her perceptions of sexual assault. She is experiencing a lot of mixed feelings and a lot of self-doubt. Regardless of how black-and-white the details of what the roommate saw or what the guy was thinking or how much anybody had had to drink. Those are not details we were invited to comment upon and it is RUDE AND INSENSITIVE TO DO SO. Especially in the context of what was disclosed If the OP is set on taking this to court or openly accusing this guy, then that is when those details become relevant and even then not by us, by the medical and law enforcement professionals whose job it is. BTFO.

missd, I'm very, very sorry for what happened and what you're experiencing. I hope this gets resolved in whatever way is most beneficial to you.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 11:58 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 12:00 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 12:06 pm 
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Tofulish wrote:
Well the way to a man's heart is through his stomach - you just have to claw upwards.
Also: BACON.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 2:38 pm 
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There is a huge difference between theoretical discussions and a personal experience. While I think that talking about certain issues are interesting and wrestling with them can generate a good discussion, it's important to realize when and where to do that.

Was Shape one of the magazines that was busted for heavy photoshopping?

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 3:31 pm 
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Wow, thanks for the supportive words, all.
Erika got it right- it's me trying to come to terms with how insidious rape culture is. I doubt very much he had the intention of getting me to that state to have sex with me...it's more the fact that he decided to, after I had very obviously passed out with he and my roommate were chattering away...and then h roommate didn't think to stop him. It's all grey and confusing, but it was not consensual.
It is violating, and that's how I've felt about it. Suffice to say, I will never get that drunk again, because I apparently don't have anyone trustworthy enough to help me.

ETA: sorry for starting a shitshow...I just don't have anyone to talk to about it.

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