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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 8:11 pm 
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You didn't start a shitshow and you have every right to share your experience here. We hear about cases all of the time where there's a lot of grey area but it boils down to the person not being able to give consent and we know how victims feel. They feel alone and sad and confused and like it's their fault but it's never true, it never is true. If you were blacked out then you have absolutely no way to give consent and absolutely no one has any right to violate you and it's even more saddening when your roommate didn't question what was happening. I don't know what made her think that you were into it but the fact is that you could not give consent, that control was taken from you. However you feel about it now, you have EVERY RIGHT TO FEEL THE FEELINGS THAT YOU DO. It's hard to talk about this stuff with other people because you never know how they're going to react but don't let that hold you back. Don't ever let your feelings or the event isolate you. It's easy to rage against the patriarchy and rape culture when we're reading a news article but we should keep these same things in mind when a friend of ours shares an experience like this.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 8:46 pm 
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Thank you, Mr. Shankly. That's exactly it...if this was anyone else's story, I'd be ready to rahrahrah rally and fork rape and the patriarchy and this culture. So I'm trying to keep that in mind, too.
I did tell a friend of mine, and it was very moving how he reacted. So it does feel good to be heard.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 8:48 pm 
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Erika Soyf*cker wrote:
I'm pretty disgusted that a PPKer would post something so deeply personal and traumatic here and not only be criticized as a result but then have a debate going on about the details of who did what and how legal that is.

I don't necessarily feel that the title of this thread is an invitation to challenge each other.


Tofulish wrote:
molasses jane wrote:
. The point is that AB wrote here thinking this was a safe space, and saying she felt very unsafe and harassed. And then was taken apart in personal, dismissive, and frankly, I think, condescending, ways over her wording. That's the point.


Is this a safe space thread? I have always thought it was a space for critical discussion of feminist issues including what constitutes harassment.


I'm very sorry that this happened to you, Miss Delaney. I agree with Mr. Shankly above, Erika, and NDPittman. I also agree that, since the question of this thread is "Who challenges your feminism in your life?" that this is a place to talk about our lives, as well as critical discussion of issues.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 9:42 pm 
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You definitely didn't "start a shitshow" missdelaney! This is absolutely what the thread is for, and its a great space to be heard and supported. I do also think that its useful to have discussions about these sorts of critical issues here, so we can take them out in the world whenever we need them.

Sending you lots of good thoughts as you process and heal from this. I am glad you were able to feel heard by people in your life, and I hope that you can continue to get both PPK and IRL support for yourself.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 11:54 pm 
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Tofulish wrote:
Sending you lots of good thoughts as you process and heal from this. I am glad you were able to feel heard by people in your life, and I hope that you can continue to get both PPK and IRL support for yourself.


This + all of the other supportive/constructive things which have been said.

I was surprised to read this story today (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23381448): a Norwegian woman was raped in Dubai, reported it to police and was charged with having extra-marital sex + a few other things. The Norwegian embassy is doing it's best to protect her (because, what the fizzle), but she was just convicted and is now facing a 16-month sentence for having been raped and then reporting it. Insult to injury much? (I am so furious.)

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 20, 2013 12:45 pm 
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Erika Soyf*cker wrote:
I'm pretty disgusted that a PPKer would post something so deeply personal and traumatic here and not only be criticized as a result but then have a debate going on about the details of who did what and how legal that is.


Seriously.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 20, 2013 8:48 pm 
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One of my closest friends seems to have lost his damn mind, because he recommended a book called "Men on Strike", written by Dr. Helen Smith. In fairness, I haven't actually read the book, but judging by the excerpt I read on Amazon, and the stuff she's posted on her blog (http://pjmedia.com/drhelen/), it reeks of MRA garbage about the 'war on men', and how feminism has demonized and emasculated men. It sucks when someone you care about embraces something you find truly repugnant.


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 8:42 am 
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We were visiting with friends on their porch the other evening. These people have 4 boys aged between 2-13, and another couple was there with their 4-year-old daughter. It was really hot outside, so the kids had the option of being in the house watching movies or whatever. The host took the little girl (I'll call her Annie) inside for a drink, and then she indicated that she wanted to go back outside to her mom. The host comes back out on the porch and announces "Annie took one look at that room full of boys and wanted nothing to do with it. Just wait until she's 14; that'll change soon enough, ha ha!"

My partner and I exchanged a "what the fizzle?" look and didn't say anything because the girl's mom ignored the comment, but this sort of thing really irks me. There's so much about this kind of exchange that makes me uncomfortable, from the assumption that of course a girl wouldn't want to play with boys (in the event, the host's own 4 year old and Annie played quite happily on the lawn), to the nudge-nudge, wink-wink sexualization of someone who is drinking from a forking sippy cup. It's all part and parcel of that kind of shiitake when people compliment your infant daughter by saying, "She's gonna be a heartbreaker," or "You'd better buy a shotgun," because either A. female = potential sexual prey, or B. female = will eventually become hypersexualized and boy crazy, it's just a matter of time, amirite guys?!

I have 3 sons, and my partner has 2 daughters, and we've had a lot of conversations about the weird heteronormative stuff people start mapping onto children too young to even know their gender, much less be invested in performing it according to constructed cultural "norms." (The flipside of the above scenario is the person who tells you that your newborn boy is "a bruiser" or "linebacker material." I mean, seriously? HE'S A BABY. His interests include sleeping, eating, pooping, and being carried around: the same as a girl baby's, so f*ck that noise.)

Anyway, the icing on the annoying cupcake came when the hostess came out with a bunch of children's books and gave them to Annie's mom because, as she explained (in a half-joking voice), "They have no relevance here." It just so happened that they all featured female characters on their covers, including a few Disney princesses; I mean, obviously a boy wouldn't want to read - or be read to - about a girl, right? I couldn't resist pointing out that when my youngest son was little his favorite movie was Cinderella, and he practically wore out the DVD, to which she was at pains to reassure me that her boys like Mulan.

I don't know - the whole thing just left a bad taste in my mouth, especially since the woman is a former colleague who I thought knew better than to buy into this junk. /Rant over!

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:11 am 
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Mr. Shankly wrote:
Is this really happening?



Seriously. Why did no one report this? I don't read this thread every day and i'm pretty mortified that it went on as long as it did. Please use the report function, guys.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 1:47 pm 
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I'm still challenging the feminism in my life. There are different songs that I like, but once I listen to the lyrics, I'm like, wow, that's problematic. But I still enjoy the song. Does anyone else find themselves in that situation? I'm thinking particularly of Notorious BIG "Hypnotize." There's a line where it's something like, 'your daughter's locked in my basement' or something. The first time I heard it, it really startled me. (I've been listening to the song for years, but it was the first time I listened with headphones and actually heard all of the words.)

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 1:56 pm 
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ndpittman wrote:
I'm still challenging the feminism in my life. There are different songs that I like, but once I listen to the lyrics, I'm like, wow, that's problematic. But I still enjoy the song. Does anyone else find themselves in that situation? I'm thinking particularly of Notorious BIG "Hypnotize." There's a line where it's something like, 'your daughter's locked in my basement' or something. The first time I heard it, it really startled me. (I've been listening to the song for years, but it was the first time I listened with headphones and actually heard all of the words.)

Some stuff. Liking a rhythm doesn't mean you have to like what the people are saying, or agree with them. I listen to a lot of metal and some bands just have lyrics because people "need" to have lyrics, so they write forked up stuff, because hey, you wanted lyrics, and we don't do love songs.


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 2:11 pm 
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ndpittman wrote:
I'm still challenging the feminism in my life. There are different songs that I like, but once I listen to the lyrics, I'm like, wow, that's problematic. But I still enjoy the song. Does anyone else find themselves in that situation? I'm thinking particularly of Notorious BIG "Hypnotize." There's a line where it's something like, 'your daughter's locked in my basement' or something. The first time I heard it, it really startled me. (I've been listening to the song for years, but it was the first time I listened with headphones and actually heard all of the words.)

Ugh, yes. I listen to r&b at work to keep me pumped up and soooo many lyrics are so problematic but I like the melody, beat, etc. It sucks.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 2:20 pm 
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couroupita wrote:
ndpittman wrote:
I'm still challenging the feminism in my life. There are different songs that I like, but once I listen to the lyrics, I'm like, wow, that's problematic. But I still enjoy the song. Does anyone else find themselves in that situation? I'm thinking particularly of Notorious BIG "Hypnotize." There's a line where it's something like, 'your daughter's locked in my basement' or something. The first time I heard it, it really startled me. (I've been listening to the song for years, but it was the first time I listened with headphones and actually heard all of the words.)

Ugh, yes. I listen to r&b at work to keep me pumped up and soooo many lyrics are so problematic but I like the melody, beat, etc. It sucks.


I had this experience a few weeks ago when listening to Del Tha Funkee Homosapien's first album. He talks about busting a woman's lip in "Money for Sex" but it's okay cause she's a gold digger. Yikes. I don't know how to deal, because I love all his other stuff. I deleted it from my iTunes, but it always bums me out when an artist I like does crepe like that.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 2:20 pm 
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ndpittman wrote:
I'm still challenging the feminism in my life. There are different songs that I like, but once I listen to the lyrics, I'm like, wow, that's problematic. But I still enjoy the song. Does anyone else find themselves in that situation? I'm thinking particularly of Notorious BIG "Hypnotize." There's a line where it's something like, 'your daughter's locked in my basement' or something. The first time I heard it, it really startled me. (I've been listening to the song for years, but it was the first time I listened with headphones and actually heard all of the words.)


I don't think you should feel too bad about this, as long as you're reflective and thoughtful about it. There are some artists whose stuff I might not buy because they actively use their money to support sh!tty causes, but if I didn't consume any media that had problematic messages and assumptions... well, I probably wouldn't get to watch, read, or listen to anything!

Plus, there are reasons we like the music besides the lyrics, and that's okay... people like songs and listen to them for a variety of reasons (and non-reasons). I teach a writing course to college freshman where we analyze cultural objects (movies, photos, ads, songs), and I think it's important to stress to them that it's okay to like things with problematic aspects, and that doesn't make you a bad person. It just creates an impetus to create new art, criticism, and conversation, which is great.

Sexist songs I forking love: "Baby It's Cold Outside," "Santa Baby," "Blurred Lines," "Big Spender," "99 Problems," practically everything by Taylor Swift.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 2:23 pm 
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Someone needs to make a CD of awesome girl-power songs for toddlers. Featuring - Girl, You'll Be Kicking The asparagus Of The Patriarchy Soon and Baby fork The Cold Outside Stop Pressuring Me You Jerk I'll fork You If I Want To.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 2:24 pm 
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couroupita wrote:
ndpittman wrote:
I'm still challenging the feminism in my life. There are different songs that I like, but once I listen to the lyrics, I'm like, wow, that's problematic. But I still enjoy the song. Does anyone else find themselves in that situation? I'm thinking particularly of Notorious BIG "Hypnotize." There's a line where it's something like, 'your daughter's locked in my basement' or something. The first time I heard it, it really startled me. (I've been listening to the song for years, but it was the first time I listened with headphones and actually heard all of the words.)

Ugh, yes. I listen to r&b at work to keep me pumped up and soooo many lyrics are so problematic but I like the melody, beat, etc. It sucks.


That's just what it is. I get a good beat going, and I can really knock out a lot of work. I also like it for the gym.


Ha! quark, Blurred Lines for me, too! It has such a good beat! But then I'm like, wait, what the fizzle are you even saying?

I'm glad to know that I'm not alone in this.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 2:40 pm 
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ndpittman wrote:
Ha! quark, Blurred Lines for me, too! It has such a good beat! But then I'm like, wait, what the fizzle are you even saying?

I'm glad to know that I'm not alone in this.


I've played this about a gabillion times in the past few weeks. It's totally the music itself and not the lyrics! Although I do kind of like the bit about "Girl you don't need no papers, that man is not your maker"... which would be sort of empowering if it weren't about trying to get a girl to sleep with him.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 2:45 pm 
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ndpittman wrote:
I'm still challenging the feminism in my life. There are different songs that I like, but once I listen to the lyrics, I'm like, wow, that's problematic. But I still enjoy the song. Does anyone else find themselves in that situation? I'm thinking particularly of Notorious BIG "Hypnotize." There's a line where it's something like, 'your daughter's locked in my basement' or something. The first time I heard it, it really startled me. (I've been listening to the song for years, but it was the first time I listened with headphones and actually heard all of the words.)


Ugh, story of my life. I like to think by listening to and buying some really great women-empowerment music I'm counterbalancing my incredibly sexist-rap side, but I doubt it. I feel bad giving money to people that think it's okay to talk about women that way. I'm perpetuating this! I've been trying to have standards but it's hard - no one really researches all the lyrics of every song before they buy an album, do they?

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 2:47 pm 
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Tofulish wrote:
Someone needs to make a CD of awesome girl-power songs for toddlers. Featuring - Girl, You'll Be Kicking The asparagus Of The Patriarchy Soon and Baby fork The Cold Outside Stop Pressuring Me You Jerk I'll fork You If I Want To.

Kind of unrelated but this just reminded me of some annoying stuff from last weekend when my friend came to visit. She's pregnant with a girl and was relating these "funny" anecdotes about her husband. Some of the most upsetting to me:
-her husband has planted a rosebush under their future daughter's window to "keep out the boys"
-he had suggested that they take the door off her bedroom from the get-go so she is never used to having one or any privacy
-he will only consider private school for his precious snowflake because she couldn't possibly handle the toughs in public school!!!
-the mom, my friend, likes to tell him what parts of the baby are developing each month and he got legit mad at her when she told him she now has her clitoris
-he's a gun collector and has already said he's going to scare off the boys by threatening to shoot them. My own father pulled that crepe and it pissed me off to no end.

Hilarious stories, right?

I already feel sorry for this kid. I want to give dudebro a little lesson in feminism but I don't want to make waves. It feels like butting in where I'm not welcome, parenting-wise. Plus we already have had conflicts when he has objectified women in the past or made sexist remarks. Blech.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 3:17 pm 
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couroupita wrote:
-he had suggested that they take the door off her bedroom from the get-go so she is never used to having one or any privacy.

I know* someone who did that with their daughters for that same reason, except that he was sexually abusing his daughters.

*I don't know the person (died before I was born) but was told to me.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 3:34 pm 
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What would a good feminist do?

I am having a problem with our neighbors. They have set up their barbecue so it blows smoke into our house and it makes it pretty terrible to breathe and I have asthma. I am now on week 6 of bronchitis and its not going away and I have a 20 month old who has to sleep in smoke and wakes up congested because of it.

My problem is that they refuse to talk to me and only want to talk to my husband, which I find demeaning and stupid. I am tempted just to go through the authorities at this point and leave my husband out of it, because frankly I don't see it doing any good, and I would rather not play into this "We only talk to your husband" crepe. I have already talked to them and explained my situation, which they have dismissed and been generally shitty about.

The next step for us is the Health Department.

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Last edited by Tofulish on Mon Jul 22, 2013 3:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 3:37 pm 
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They want the angry feminist, show them the angry feminist. Usually I'd say doing something like that would create more problems but they're going to dislike you either way so why not!

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 3:42 pm 
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Did they say why they want to talk to your husband? I mean, I know why but what the fizzle. If it's your health at issue I don't understand why they want him involved.

maybe just go together?

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 3:46 pm 
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Tofulish wrote:
What would a good feminist do?

I am having a problem with our neighbors. They have set up their barbecue so it blows smoke into our house and it makes it pretty terrible to breathe and I have asthma. I am now on week 6 of bronchitis and its not going away and I have a 20 month old who has to sleep in smoke and wakes up congested because of it.

My problem is that they refuse to talk to me and only want to talk to my husband, which I find demeaning and stupid. I am tempted just to go through the authorities at this point and leave my husband out of it, because frankly I don't see it doing any good, and I would rather not play into this "We only talk to your husband" crepe. I have already talked to them and explained my situation, which they have dismissed and been generally shitty about.

The next step for us is the Health Department.

I would just go to the authorities and Health Department. If they ask if you have talked to them, and they probably will ask, then tell the authorities that they won't talk to you to because you are a woman. if they can't do anything maybe the ACLU has some suggestions?

Or you could go talk to them again and tell them if they won't talk to you they can talk to the cops, but personally I wouldn't even bother.


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 3:54 pm 
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We have talked to them, both my husband and I separately, before this "We Will Only Talk To Your Man" shiitake came up. And the problem is partly that the guy twists whatever is said. So my husband had a talk with him about my health, he agreed to move the grill etc and was very apologetic, but did nothing and then told me yesterday that my husband had come over to apologize for my behavior, which is certainly not the case.

The cops have been zero help. They just say "Its summer! Everyone can BBQ if they want to!" Um not if its a nuisance fire.

I just think its not feminist to even engage in the whole "We can only talk to your man-owner." Its frankly just an insult. I am an adult woman who is perfectly able to talk to other human beings.

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