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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 8:44 am 
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Rapey or not rapey, now it's in my head for the rest of the day.


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 8:59 am 
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Man, I still remember this one guy whom I just could not shake all night. Tried to ditch him, tried to get him to leave me alone politely and nothing was helping. This was back in the day when I was more likely to sleep with someone than be rude. I am pretty sure that was his M.O. Urgh.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 11:15 am 
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Tofulish wrote:
I would say that that is shocking, except that our friend's 8 year old had a stalker in Georgia. They had to move because the police were really unhelpful with enforcing the restraining order. This was a grown man who would follow her everywhere and was constantly showing up at her school and on her school bus route. So, yeah. And that comment is nutso.

I think the way the police treat female victims challenges my feminism pretty much daily


This story makes my brain hurt. I have obviously had some personal experiences in getting the local police to enforce a civil harassment order (luckily only phone calls, no physically following or assault), but you'd think when an 8 year-old child is involved they'd cut the crepe and keep the victim safe. I can't believe this sick individual was allowed to harass them until they had to disrupt their lives and move. That is awful- and what a horrible thing for a young girl to have to go through. It's confusing and disempowering enough to experience as an adult, but for a child? It takes a sick person to do that, but it takes an even sicker person to be in a position of authority and just let it happen.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 2:33 pm 
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It should be easier for women to have successful careers in academia, if they have children.

http://chronicle.com/article/The-Baby-P ... um=twitter

Quote:
Our research team at the University of California at Berkeley has spent more than a decade studying why so many women begin the climb but do not make it to the top of the Ivory Tower as tenured professors, deans, and presidents. The answer turns out to be what you'd expect: Babies matter.

Women pay a "baby penalty" over the course of their academic careers—from the uncertain graduate-school years to the pressure cooker of tenure, through the long midcareer march, and finally to retirement. But babies matter in different ways at different times. Our new book, Do Babies Matter? Gender and Family in the Ivory Tower (written with Nicholas H. Wolfinger and Marc Goulden) draws on our research, as well as findings from the National Science Foundation survey that has tracked a large sample of Ph.D.'s (more than 160,000) from 1973 onward, and several other large surveys and interviews focusing on graduate students, postdoctoral fellows, and faculty members at the University of California.

Our most important finding is that family formation negatively affects women's—but not men's—academic careers. For men, having children can be a slight career advantage and, for women, it is often a career killer. Women who do advance through the faculty ranks do so at a high personal price: They are far less likely to be married with children than are their male colleagues.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 3:12 pm 
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Interesting article on choosing extracurricular activities for daughters:

http://www.theatlantic.com/sexes/archive/2013/08/soccer-isnt-for-girly-girls-how-parents-pick-the-sports-their-daughters-play/278386/

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Upper-middle-class girls are being prepared much more strategically to help maintain their family's class position by entering what are traditionally hegemonically male worlds. This includes choosing afterschool activities that will give these girls an advantage in college admissions. Today there are three times more female soccer players than Girl Scouts in the United States. The comparison to the traditionally female activity of Girl Scouts is indicative of the shift to using sports like soccer to train girls to succeed in the future. Those with strong financial, social, and cultural resources--associated with upper-middle-class families--are more likely to have access to and focus on travel and elite competitive experiences.

In contrast, the dance moms did not discuss future careers for their daughters that require lots of credentials and higher education. Some mentioned the possibility that their daughters would become a doctor or lawyer, and nearly all expect their daughters to attend college, even those who seriously consider a professional dance career for their daughters. But these moms routinely mentioned teaching as a career goal, while none of the soccer parents did--even the soccer mother who was herself a high school teacher. Being a dance teacher was specifically mentioned by several mothers, which has less status than teaching in a scholastic setting (because it does not require a licensing exam).

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 3:41 pm 
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That's interesting because I did Girl Scouts and danced as a kid (and as a college student) and got out of competitive sports about as fast as I got into them. I have a pretty serious graduate degree and a great job in a competitive field and had a professional mother with a PhD who basically acted like not getting a graduate degree means you've failed life (and would say stuff like, nobody cares about high school and college graduation, those schools don't mean anything after you have your graduate degree anyway).

I kinda hate competitive sports, especially those sports where you wind up practicing a million hours a week and have to come to practices and sit on the bench even when you're injured or go to practices on Labor Day and other school holidays (seriously) or travel long distances for games. I hope my kids don't want to participate in them. I'm certainly not going to push them in that direction. It's great to be fit, but let's have some priorities, people.


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 4:04 pm 
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In my high school, Girl Scouts was seen as something that would look good on a college application. A bunch of girls who had dropped out sometime in elementary school joined again in ninth or tenth grade.


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 8:03 pm 
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Tofulish wrote:
It should be easier for women to have successful careers in academia, if they have children.

http://chronicle.com/article/The-Baby-P ... um=twitter

Quote:
Our research team at the University of California at Berkeley has spent more than a decade studying why so many women begin the climb but do not make it to the top of the Ivory Tower as tenured professors, deans, and presidents. The answer turns out to be what you'd expect: Babies matter.

Women pay a "baby penalty" over the course of their academic careers—from the uncertain graduate-school years to the pressure cooker of tenure, through the long midcareer march, and finally to retirement. But babies matter in different ways at different times. Our new book, Do Babies Matter? Gender and Family in the Ivory Tower (written with Nicholas H. Wolfinger and Marc Goulden) draws on our research, as well as findings from the National Science Foundation survey that has tracked a large sample of Ph.D.'s (more than 160,000) from 1973 onward, and several other large surveys and interviews focusing on graduate students, postdoctoral fellows, and faculty members at the University of California.

Our most important finding is that family formation negatively affects women's—but not men's—academic careers. For men, having children can be a slight career advantage and, for women, it is often a career killer. Women who do advance through the faculty ranks do so at a high personal price: They are far less likely to be married with children than are their male colleagues.


As this article notes later, the situation is dire for all women in academia, not just mothers. There is also ample evidence that student evaluations (which rule reappointments and tenure decisions in small schools) are subject to tremendous gender bias, and as this article (and many others) note, tenure rates are much lower for women all around. It is clear that no matter what the personal situation of women academics--mothers, single, married, the personal toll is exceptional, and the academy is biased. This isn't an issue about mothers, it's about all women in this profession.

From later in the article:

"The pressure cooker of the tenure track usually lasts between four to seven years. At the end of that trial, the university decides "up or out," tenure for life or dismissal. It is well established that women are less likely to be awarded tenure than men. There is a baby penalty on the tenure track, especially strong in the sciences. But women without children also receive tenure at a lower rate than men do. So there are more factors than children that cause women to fail at this critical juncture.

Women who do endure on the tenure track often do so alone. Female professors have higher divorce rates, lower marriage rates, and fewer children than their male colleagues do. Among tenured faculty, 70 percent of the men are married with children, compared with 44 percent of the women."

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 8:12 pm 
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Really interesting read, Lobsteriffic. Thanks for posting. I never stopped to reflect upon the relationship between extracurriculars and career, for myself or just in general, but after thinking about it now I do think that playing competitve sports (particularly tennis because in summer leagues the matches were co-ed and based on straight up win-lose rankings) has totally helped me with assertiveness in my current job. I interact primarily with males and they very much respond to confidence and assertiveness. Its a little tough though still to just say what's on my mind like they do without doubting myself, like will this potentially bad idea sound worse because its a bad idea coming from a female. Does that make sense?

And getting back to sports, hell yes I enjoyed kicking the asparagi of every boy that said girls can't play sports.


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 1:59 pm 
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"The more girls started to voice their opinions about gender issues, the more vitriolic the boys' abuse became. One boy declared that 'bisques should keep their bitchiness to their bitch-selves #bisque' and another smugly quipped, 'feminism doesn't mean they don't like the D, they just haven't found one to satisfy them yet.'"

UGH.

http://www.theguardian.com/education/mo ... st-society

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 5:38 pm 
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NPR ran a story about women and academic philosophy.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 7:05 pm 
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this affable fellow says that underage girls can indeed be complicit in their own sexual abuse. stop preying on those poor older men!

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 10:55 am 
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"'Here's What Real Feminism Looks Like,' penned by two grown women who refer to themselves as 'CHICKS ON THE RIGHT,' lays down some pretty strong opinions and enough shadowsassing to get a lady at a Red Hat Society meeting in a red state some pretty serious high fives."

Oh, dear.

http://jezebel.com/conservative-chicks- ... 1112592634

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 12:15 pm 
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This is kind of trivial for this thread, and it is also a lengthy rant, but I don't know who else in my life is going to "get" this but you all...

I was at a tech conference last week. One of the evening events was a career fair. I'm not in the market for a job (have a great internship currently, not to mention a year of grad school left) but I went anyway because I think it's always good to go out and practice talking to people about what you do, etc.

Oh, this is where I should mention: there were about 100 attendees at the conference, 9 of whom (self included) were female. This is about normal in my field. It leads to annoying consequences sometimes, like companies handing out swag often only bring L and XL shirts, because they're anticipating, y'know, men.

So I was really excited when I approached one table and could hear the intern handing out the shirts offering the guys in front of me small and medium shirts as well as L and XL. At last, I thought, a cool black t-shirt that will fit me!

I get up to the table and the intern handing out the shirts asks me what size I want and I say medium and she turns and instead of grabbing me a medium from the huge stack of cool black t-shirts she hands me a forking magenta shirt.

I handed it back and as politely as I could said, "No thank you, I'll take one of the black ones."

She looked terrified (maybe I came across a little brusque) but gave me the shirt I wanted. The HR lady at the table then saw that I had a black shirt when I sat down and scolded the intern for giving me the wrong one. I was like, no no, I asked for this one and the HR lady was like (to the intern) "give her a pink one too!" and then to me "it says something funny about female programmers on it!"

Which is how I ended up with a magenta girl power shirt that says something about not underestimating "girls" who can code.

I've worn the shirt a couple of times to the gym (hey, it's a shirt, and it's clean, I'mma wear that) and every time I do, I am more bothered by the whole event. I've been trying to figure out why and here's the things I can come up with:

- first of all, guess what. If I am at a conference in which I am a distinct, visible minority? The last thing on forking earth that I want is to be given a BRIGHT PINK SHIRT that singles me out among my peers. I spend an inordinate amount of time trying to get people in my field to not make a big goddamn deal about the fact that I'm female and not say dumb shiitake like "you're a great programmer, for a woman, ha ha ha!" etc, I don't want a pink t-shirt that pretty much counteracts all of this.

- I'm not a "girl" who can code. Actually, at 29, I don't identify as a "girl" at all. Do your black t-shirts say something about "boys" who can code? No? That would be condescending? Men wouldn't like it? The girl thing is condescending and this woman (and several whom I spoke to on the subject at the conference) didn't like it either.

- I'm not a "girl programmer" either. I'm also not a lady coder or a woman programmer or a she-coder or whatever the fork. I am a programmer. Full stop. I am also a woman, but you know, that's not part of my forking job title and t-shirts like this don't help other people realize that.

So, yeah. I recognize their attempt to be empowering to women and reach out to the demographic, but I think their attempt was shiitake-y and not well thought through and ultimately kind of offensive.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 12:16 pm 
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Where's my sugar daddy??? Wasn't I supposed to get one once I started mooching off the system and having my annual abortions?

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 12:28 pm 
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Yeah, but GIRLS aren't a threat. It's cute isn't it: the girls can program! Pat on the head, the men can get back to the real business.

It's revolting and so common. It reminds me a lot of how all the high school teams are MASCOT SCHOOL for boys and LADY MASCOT for the girls. The girls are just the girl version, not the real thing.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 12:33 pm 
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Mr. Shankly wrote:
Where's my sugar daddy??? Wasn't I supposed to get one once I started mooching off the system and having my annual abortions?
Right?! I must have missed that memo while I was busy flailing my arms helplessly because I dropped my hammer and sickle hankie.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 1:09 pm 
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ColdandSleepy, I hear you. It's complex, because on one hand I'm quite annoyed by the folks, especially in management positions, who are like "oh I don't see gender, there are no women engineers we're all just engineers here!" because I don't stop being a woman the moment I step into the office, and my gender has real consequences in terms of how seriously I am taken at work, in terms of job prospects and career evolution. But like at your conference, 80% of attempts at being inclusive is that condescending, cutesy gimmicky stuff.

You want to include women in STEM fields? Stop infantilizing us, offer reasonable accommodations (I've had to work in facilities with no female bathrooms) and examine your company's culture to offer me the same chances as my male colleagues. None of this needs to come in pink.


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 5:09 pm 
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Barf. I got out of a large majority male field (not because of that) and went into a just a little majority male field (or rather, most of the graduates over the past 15 years are female, most of the people with full-time jobs are male). The school I went to went co-ed in 1967 and never finished making sure there were an equal number of men's and women's restrooms in the STEM buildings, so, there weren't (and it was one of those 40 male students to 5 female students kind of deals, 40 male faculty to 1 female faculty member).

I think the pink shirt example is actually one of the worst I've ever heard. That is incredibly demeaning and othering and they should have known a LOT better.


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 9:43 pm 
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Ugh, hey all. This occurrence took place and I need to rant about it somewhere.

I live with my brother, who is a year younger than I am. He's a really good-hearted person for the most part (treats my dog well, is nice to my friends, kind and cordial to others), but belongs to a group of friends that are womanizers that think that women are just walking hormones that are trying to change men.
So the other day, things really got out of hand. I cleaned the house, as I always do (I'm the ONLY one that does this) and moved his vegetable oil so I could clean the counter. When I realized his oil was on the counter because one of his food shelves was super low and it wouldn't fit, I adjusted the shelf so the bottle would fit in there and continued cleaning. I also put the garbage out on the back porch to take out later. Taking out the garbage is his job daily.

In any case, he came and yelled at me pretty harshly about touching his stuff (the oil and his shelf) and told me not to be so "passive aggressive" about the garbage because I left it out on the porch. This shiitake drives me nuts.
He assumed that I was trying to control his shiitake, and passive aggressively tell him to take out the garbage. The conversation ending with him demanding that I not touch his stuff (which I had no choice but to say ok to), but I wholly defended myself on the part of him calling me passive aggressive, when I'm not.

boring story even more boring, I'm sick of him assuming that because I am a woman and like a clean house (more for my dog's safety), I am trying to control things around the house. It peas me the fork off. I also think I deserve some credit for actually keeping the house clean when he doesn't do anything AT ALL to help me besides take out the trash once in a while.

My question is...do I resolve to treat him like he treats me, talk to him about it, or should I brush this situation off? I don't see us being as close as we were no matter what happens, which may not be a bad thing. If he weren't my brother, we'd likely want to have nothing to do with each other. I'm just feeling really undervalue here.

I apologize if this is not the right place to post this, but UGH. How he acts based on the generalizations and things he's learned about the opposite sex is maddening to me. And he's very stubborn, so I don't think a talk about judgments about women would work at all. :(

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 1:50 am 
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Yeah, I wouldn't brush it off, his behaviour is completely not ok. Your feelings are completely valid and justified. In my opinion, if a person refuses to participate to the chores, they get absolutely no say in how they are done. So either he keeps on letting you clean the whole house and does not get to comment on whether or not you moved his stuff to do so, or you guys share chores equitably, with a schedule that you can enforce. No backseat vacuum-cleaning, ffs.

I wonder, how old are you guys, and has your brother ever lived on his own? Because from your description he kind of sounds like he's treating you the way an entitled teenager would treat his mom (if said teen were treating his mom like a maid). If he's always had people cleaning after him, he may just have no idea how much work it takes to maintain a house.


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 2:08 am 
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Confession about chores. I grew up with a stay-at-home mom who let me get away with being a slob for way too long. She would whine and nag a lot (that's how I saw it at the time) about how no one was helping her out at home, but then do the chores by herself anyway.

The summer I was 20, I moved to a different country for 3 months, staying with friends of my parents' for 2 weeks then working full time and staying in an employee dorm. I had been away from my mother before for things like vacations and study abroad programs, but it was the first time I lived away for "real life". At first I was expecting, I don't know, to be treated like a child guest of my family friends and be looked after like at home. My hosts quickly set things straight and gave me a little talk about how we were all adults and had to participate equally to the chores. Then living in the dorms we had to maintain the place ourselves and I learned just how much work -unrewarding, ungratifying, underappreciated work- cleaning a house is.

When I moved back home after the summer, I saw my mother's behavior in a completely different light and I was soooo ashamed at how I had rolled my eyes at her complaints and tried to avoid pulling my weight for so long. I still feel the shame to this day, actually. I've never let anyone clean after me since then, at least not without profusely thanking them and providing tradeoffs. And I've never let adults living with me get away with not participating, either.


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 7:19 am 
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sarahnorine wrote:
My question is...do I resolve to treat him like he treats me, talk to him about it, or should I brush this situation off? I don't see us being as close as we were no matter what happens, which may not be a bad thing. If he weren't my brother, we'd likely want to have nothing to do with each other. I'm just feeling really undervalue here.

I apologize if this is not the right place to post this, but UGH. How he acts based on the generalizations and things he's learned about the opposite sex is maddening to me. And he's very stubborn, so I don't think a talk about judgments about women would work at all. :(
Is this a sexism thing, or is he just immature? I've certainly lived with women who do less housework than me and seem to be happy to live in a cloud of farts, fleas and sock-stink and do the washing up only when their parents are coming to visit. Some people just have a lower "it's dirty enough for me to start cleaning" bar.

The "don't touch my stuff" comment makes him sound like a ridiculous manchild (although I'm sure he does have redeeming qualities that weren't relevant to the story), so I think a "you need to learn to clean up your stuff like a big boy or move out" conversation might be in order. If he can't even handle you putting away a bottle of vegetable oil, he needs to grow up.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 7:38 am 
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aelle wrote:


When I moved back home after the summer, I saw my mother's behavior in a completely different light and I was soooo ashamed at how I had rolled my eyes at her complaints and tried to avoid pulling my weight for so long. I still feel the shame to this day, actually. I've never let anyone clean after me since then, at least not without profusely thanking them and providing tradeoffs. And I've never let adults living with me get away with not participating, either.


Dude, seriously. When I was 20 and living in my first apartment, I had to call my mom and ask her how to clean a bathroom. I kind of never got it right, until I lived with my most recent ex, who was big on cleaning. He cleaned everything but the kitchen, which I cleaned daily, and he finally taught me how to clean a tub/shower. It's kind of amazing to me how I never did it right/at all before and it makes me feel bad about letting my mom, dad, and brothers do all the dirty work around the house. My job at home was dusting, which I did half-heartedly, and only when someone was in the room to check and make sure I was doing it. I also sometimes had to wash the dishes, which I only did in cold water because I didn't like hot water touching my hands. So gross. And my filth threshold is definitely higher than most.

Obviously, not relevant to sarahnorine's post, but just made me think.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 7:54 am 
Has it on Blue Vinyl
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Mr. Shankly wrote:
Where's my sugar daddy??? Wasn't I supposed to get one once I started mooching off the system and having my annual abortions?


You can have annual abortions, you just have to FEEL GUILTY ABOUT IT. They should just make a law about abortions to see how guilty you feel, and if you feel guilty enough it isn't murder, then you can go ahead. Also, if you get divorced, you have to pay for the guilty abortions yourself.


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