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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 8:21 am 
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aelle wrote:

I wonder, how old are you guys, and has your brother ever lived on his own? Because from your description he kind of sounds like he's treating you the way an entitled teenager would treat his mom (if said teen were treating his mom like a maid). If he's always had people cleaning after him, he may just have no idea how much work it takes to maintain a house.


I am 26, he is 25. He lived on his own for 6 months before. I completely agree with the teenager thing, because that's what he does but my mom used to make him clean the house too when it was "cleaning day", so I'm a little stumped as to why this is coming up.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 8:30 am 
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Gulliver wrote:
sarahnorine wrote:
My question is...do I resolve to treat him like he treats me, talk to him about it, or should I brush this situation off? I don't see us being as close as we were no matter what happens, which may not be a bad thing. If he weren't my brother, we'd likely want to have nothing to do with each other. I'm just feeling really undervalue here.

I apologize if this is not the right place to post this, but UGH. How he acts based on the generalizations and things he's learned about the opposite sex is maddening to me. And he's very stubborn, so I don't think a talk about judgments about women would work at all. :(
Is this a sexism thing, or is he just immature? I've certainly lived with women who do less housework than me and seem to be happy to live in a cloud of farts, fleas and sock-stink and do the washing up only when their parents are coming to visit. Some people just have a lower "it's dirty enough for me to start cleaning" bar.

The "don't touch my stuff" comment makes him sound like a ridiculous manchild (although I'm sure he does have redeeming qualities that weren't relevant to the story), so I think a "you need to learn to clean up your stuff like a big boy or move out" conversation might be in order. If he can't even handle you putting away a bottle of vegetable oil, he needs to grow up.


Is it s sexism thing? I think the reason I attributed this to sexism is because I know he has these ideas of how women are only out to change him/control him, which is why I have a big problem with this situation because I'm not and I feel like he is treating me like I am. I'm simply trying to keep the house clean for my my preferences and for my dog. I think I will have this conversation with him because a lot of what you all are saying here makes good sense. I just, with the pent up rage I had over this sitch, didn't think I could approach the subject with him until I knew the exact reason why I was justified in my actions and about how I feel right now. You guys rock.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 1:18 pm 
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I would definitely have a talk with him. Because, one, it's a shitty way to view woman (as manipulative or whatever) and two, it's a shitty way to view his sister. I think it's a good opportunity for you two to have a heart to heart.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 3:34 pm 
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ndpittman wrote:
I would definitely have a talk with him. Because, one, it's a shitty way to view woman (as manipulative or whatever) and two, it's a shitty way to view his sister. I think it's a good opportunity for you two to have a heart to heart.

I totally will!

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 3:47 pm 
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I think you'd be doing him a favor in setting him straight that women are people too, not caricatures that men have to protect themselves from!

So many of my early relationships were made so much harder by these weird myths about women that some men seem to share amongst themselves. It is hard building a relationship if your partner sees you as the enemy who is trying to trap him and steal his freedom and pop out a few kids by which you will control him and steal all his money and time. And this whole idea that women hide who they are until they have trapped you and then turn into harpies is so destructive.

I dated someone and we used to love going hiking and camping together, and then his best friend started to call me controlling and saying that I wouldn't "allow" him to go camping alone - so then he started to go and spend his vacations with his best friend (who coincidentally was single). Then he and I broke up and his best friend started dating a girl who liked hiking and camping, and then my ex became the third wheel on their romantic trips together, which was kind of hilarious.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 4:33 pm 
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My boyfriend's friends had a hi-larious phase where they downloaded the whip app on their phones and would do it any time my boyfriend did anything nice for me at all. I was annoyed because it was basically like 'don't be nice to your girlfriend or we'll shame you' and that doesn't really work for me in a relationship. I mean they were doing it jokingly of course, but there's only so much joking you can take before you start to think "oh wait, am I being controlled?" and I didn't ever want him to think that. Because I like to control his thoughts.

They stopped when I downloaded the app and started doing it to them any time they did anything nice for anyone.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 5:12 pm 
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Fee wrote:
My boyfriend's friends had a hi-larious phase where they downloaded the whip app on their phones and would do it any time my boyfriend did anything nice for me at all. I was annoyed because it was basically like 'don't be nice to your girlfriend or we'll shame you' and that doesn't really work for me in a relationship. I mean they were doing it jokingly of course, but there's only so much joking you can take before you start to think "oh wait, am I being controlled?" and I didn't ever want him to think that. Because I like to control his thoughts.

They stopped when I downloaded the app and started doing it to them any time they did anything nice for anyone.
I love you.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 2:26 pm 
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Tofulish wrote:
So many of my early relationships were made so much harder by these weird myths about women that some men seem to share amongst themselves. It is hard building a relationship if your partner sees you as the enemy who is trying to trap him and steal his freedom and pop out a few kids by which you will control him and steal all his money and time. And this whole idea that women hide who they are until they have trapped you and then turn into harpies is so destructive.


This.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 12:33 am 
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I thought this was brilliant. Yes means yes, and coffee means coffee. http://freethoughtblogs.com/godlessness ... x-we-want/

Quote:
We need to stop asking people for coffee.

Not that we should stop asking people for sex, in appropriate contexts, at conferences and elsewhere; not that we should stop asking people on dates. We need, specifically, to stop saying ‘for coffee’. If that sounds prudish or odd, let me explain.

Some months back, a friend got an online message from a stranger, who’d seen him through a university Facebook group to which both belonged. The sender had seen him commenting, and asked if he was “up for a coffee”. It took my friend three days, and hours of advisory IM exchanges, to know how to respond.

Exactly what did “a coffee” denote in this case? What invitation was being made? Was this coffee and socialising, as in the German ritual of Kaffeeklatsch? Was it a coffee date? Was it socialising, with the option of dates to follow? With the option of dates and/or sex? Of no strings attached sex, specifically? A date with the option of staying friends?


The popularity of “coffee” stems, I think, from that ambiguity. It serves as both euphemism and get-out clause, putting dating or sex on the table with plausible deniability – ask to hook up, and your neck is on the line; ask them for coffee, and rejection can be parried with face-saving statements that you “didn’t mean it like that”. (In the film Brassed Off, when Tara Fitzgerald and Ewan McGregor arrive back at Fitzgerald’s flat after a night out, her character asks McGregor to “come up for a coffee“. He doesn’t drink coffee, he says. “I haven’t got any”, she replies.)

The trouble is, that ambiguity puts the other person‘s neck on the line. Inviting someone neither to dating or sex, nor a social event, but to something which could usually mean either places on them the burden of interpretation; of negotiating correctly an advance chosen for its disclarity. My friend didn’t want to hurt a stranger’s feelings, but replying to their message was a minefield: any wrong guess – that a sexual or romantic invitation was purely social, or vice versa – had a huge chance of creating awkwardness. If that had happened, he might well have felt bad, but the deck was stacked against him: to avoid any social risk-taking themselves, the other person risked his feelings by forcing him to guess their intent.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 3:59 am 
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Huh. I don't know. I think the beauty of the coffee date is its ambiguity. I mean, I'm all for clearly communicating what you want when you know what that is, but sometimes you just want a chance to get to know someone better before you make that call, and that's when "let's go for coffee" comes in handy.

I think the problem with elevatorgate was not the words he used, but the fact that he propositioned her alone in an elevator late and night at a conference dominated by men and then he and others in the atheism/skepticism community didn't seem to understand how intimidating and threatening a situation that can be. I don't think this is in any way comparable to approaching someone you'd like to get to know better on social media and asking if they'd like to get coffee. In that context, I would always interpret that as "I'd like to get to know you better". If someone I barely know was using "coffee" as a eupemism for sex, well, I'd have more problem with them assuming I'd want to meet for sex when I have given no indication of interest than the words they used to propose that.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 5:30 am 
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A journey on the bus challenged my feminism last night.

The a-level results came out this week so lots of teens went out to celebrate their results last night and a lot of the girls chose to wear short dresses and high heels. They looked fab. A man got on the bus and started leering at a group of them and commenting on them to another man next to him, who looked uncomfortable with the encounter but played along.


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 7:35 am 
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Wait, you can't invite someone for coffee (or insert other ambiguous social scene) because then people have to interact with each other and figure out what they want together? I'm not sure I can get behind that thesis.

Then again, I don't think I've ever had ambiguous coffee with someone. And if it's a romantic kind of coffee, it feels on the same level as drinks or lunch. Not as serious as dinner, definitely not as serious as a movie. Coffee never equals sex in my world. It's a total non-threatening opportunity to talk to someone for as short or as long as you like.


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 8:43 am 
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Ariann wrote:
Coffee never equals sex in my world. It's a total non-threatening opportunity to talk to someone for as short or as long as you like.


Yeah, I definitely use going for coffee as something I want to do with someone who I don't want to have dinner or drinks with, as that seems more serious. Coffee is even less serious than lunch, in my book. I have a guy friend whom I will only ever have coffee with. And I have an ex that I'm pseudo friends with that always wants to get drinks when he's in town, but when I suggest coffee instead, he scoffs. It can be a jumping off point, if the conversation goes well, but it can also be a safe spot when you don't want to take things further.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 8:50 am 
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And...you know...it's cheap.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 9:40 am 
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I was called sweetheart all night last night by sweaty drunk men and was told I should be a model because "you are skinny" and when I cut someone off after he asked "can I have one of those" (referring to beer), he said when I refused, "well, can I have you?". Gross.


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 10:04 am 
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That sucks, vijita. I really hate the way alcohol makes some people act. I know it just brings out feelings and inappropriate comments that are already present in people's minds. It's just really disappointing/uncomfortable/stupid to have to deal with people thinking it is okay to make comments like that.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 11:23 am 
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This guy at work calls me Dear sometimes and I'm torn between saying something and not. I'm trying to figure out if it bothers me? I don't think I personally feel violated by it or anything, but it bothers me more on a sociological level. Like when did a term of endearment become acceptable in work situations? My thought was to call him Dear back, but then again it probably won't be received in the "how do you like it don't you feel its weird sense" I would intend it to be.

Ok, as I type I think it bothers me. I have been fortunate to not have dealt with this type of crepe at work, innocent as it may be/sound, in years. Do I just say "I prefer to not be called dear"? That's pretty much polite yet straightforward, right? (I want to be polite, I have to work with this person.)


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 4:07 pm 
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allularpunk wrote:
Ariann wrote:
Coffee never equals sex in my world. It's a total non-threatening opportunity to talk to someone for as short or as long as you like.

Yeah, I definitely use going for coffee as something I want to do with someone who I don't want to have dinner or drinks with, as that seems more serious. Coffee is even less serious than lunch, in my book. I have a guy friend whom I will only ever have coffee with. And I have an ex that I'm pseudo friends with that always wants to get drinks when he's in town, but when I suggest coffee instead, he scoffs. It can be a jumping off point, if the conversation goes well, but it can also be a safe spot when you don't want to take things further.

i was thinking the exact same thing, but in this article it's being invited in for coffee that's being questioned, not going out & meeting in the public sphere.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 4:45 pm 
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Ah. Although, again, I don't see the problem in a period of ambiguity as a relationship is developing.

Eta: although now that I have read the full article it seems like the "going back to the room for coffee" is about one particular instance in which someone was actually intimidated and cornered, which was the actual problem at hand. The author is railing against coffee in general, not just in the "lets to back to my place" sense, which is bizarre. (And again, I have asked people to come in for coffee before, and meant just that, because I wanted the date to continue! If we decide in that half hour that we also want to have sex, great!) The case of the person who asked a Facebook friend for coffee seems completely absurd. You wanna go have coffee with someone, do it, you don't, don't. This does not take days of deliberation and is not a case of someone trying to trap you into unwanted sex.


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 4:55 pm 
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I think the sentiment that its good to have clarity makes sense to me. If you're saying "Let's get coffee and get to know one another to see if we're interested in dating" that is clear just as it is if you say "Let's get coffee because you're an interesting person and I'd be interested in being mentored by you." But just saying "Let's get coffee" can sometimes lead to people not being clear about what is on offer.

I had a client take me to dinner 3 or 4 times - and we always talked about business and had a great time going to some pretty amazing restaurants (Hello Gramercy Tavern!). And then he french kissed me. So yeah - apparently he had thought we were going on dates and I thought that I was making professional connections. He was married and had just had a baby with his very lovely wife (whom I knew in passing from closing dinners), so I hadn't had any idea that he thought that our dinners were romantic. And he told me off for leading him on. So that was fun.

I do think that the ambiguity can be hard for women looking to develop professional relationships or network, because so often men think you're looking for something romantic, when often you just want to build the same professional network that guys seem to build almost effortlessly when they go off and play golf or go to strip clubs or sportsbars together.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 5:24 pm 
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I had a guy keep calling me babe today on the subway platform and another creepy dude say he'd like to get to know me. Then right after creepy dude a guy and girl were walking behind me and one said 'what happened to cleavage? Where are all the slutty girls?' I felt awkward since I'm wearing a tank top that has cleavage showing today. I was tempted to turn around and say 'right here!' but I didn't.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 6:37 pm 
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Clarity is always great if you really know when you're asking what it is that you want. I just found the attack on "having coffee" as really odd since it's something I would do if I were single because ... you know... you don't always know the second you look at someone what you want from them. Maybe it's sex, maybe it's friendship, maybe both or neither...that's why you ask. To spend a couple minutes speaking with them to see what's doing. If you know that you want sex only, sure put that out there and spare everyone the painful confusion, but I don't know if I believe the majority of people asking other people out for coffee even know where it's going to go.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 8:48 pm 
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Tofulish wrote:
I think the sentiment that its good to have clarity makes sense to me. If you're saying "Let's get coffee and get to know one another to see if we're interested in dating" that is clear just as it is if you say "Let's get coffee because you're an interesting person and I'd be interested in being mentored by you." But just saying "Let's get coffee" can sometimes lead to people not being clear about what is on offer.

I had a client take me to dinner 3 or 4 times - and we always talked about business and had a great time going to some pretty amazing restaurants (Hello Gramercy Tavern!). And then he french kissed me. So yeah - apparently he had thought we were going on dates and I thought that I was making professional connections. He was married and had just had a baby with his very lovely wife (whom I knew in passing from closing dinners), so I hadn't had any idea that he thought that our dinners were romantic. And he told me off for leading him on. So that was fun.

I do think that the ambiguity can be hard for women looking to develop professional relationships or network, because so often men think you're looking for something romantic, when often you just want to build the same professional network that guys seem to build almost effortlessly when they go off and play golf or go to strip clubs or sportsbars together.


But do you really think you were being ambiguous with the jackass work guy? Or was he just a crasshole who saw what he wanted to see? The fact that some men see all women as potential romantic interests and are just biding their time to pounce seems like a totally different issue than the fact that budding (and even long term) relationships sometimes benefit from ambiguity and the space to explore feelings before coming to decisions.


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 9:19 pm 
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Ugh, I got hit on again and this crasshole had the nerve to touch me. I pulled away and walked away but just ugh. I was waiting for the damn bus. I should be able to do that without some crasshole putting his hands on me.

And I wasn't even still wearing the cleavage revealing shirt anymore, not that if I had it would have been okay.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 9:23 pm 
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blondiefk wrote:
Ugh, I got hit on again and this crasshole had the nerve to touch me. I pulled away and walked away but just ugh. I was waiting for the damn bus. I should be able to do that without some crasshole putting his hands on me.

And I wasn't even still wearing the cleavage revealing shirt anymore, not that if I had it would have been okay.


:( sorry! there used to be a guy who would hit on me everyday while i was waiting for the bus. It skeeved me out so much. Once he actually touched me and I was SO PISSED off. It's such a shitty feeling.

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