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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 9:39 pm 
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Wow, this whole forum challenges my everything:

http://www.happier abroad.com/forum/index.php

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 9:42 pm 
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hey, i don't know what that site is, but maybe let's not give them traffic and/or bring them to our site? I'm going to edit the link so there's a space and people have to copy and paste it to see it, ok?

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 11:34 pm 
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I honestly don't understand how the phrase "do you want to get a coffee?" is challenging feminism. I just don't get it. Yes, sometimes the intentions behind that phrase are unclear, but I don't think it's a power play or anti-feminist.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 11:57 pm 
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molasses jane wrote:
I honestly don't understand how the phrase "do you want to get a coffee?" is challenging feminism. I just don't get it. Yes, sometimes the intentions behind that phrase are unclear, but I don't think it's a power play or anti-feminist.


I'm in this camp.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2013 4:32 am 
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My dad: Normally he rocks at treating people like equals, and expecting others to do the same. Between us, he treats me like he does himself, which is awesome. But he has very strange ideas about "femininity" and "feminism" and every time we try to have a discussion about women, women's "roles" (and continued societal-cultural problems) or anything related to abuse/rape, shiitake explodes.

And I have been mulling over this, because, between the two of us, or on a very personal/individual level, there is really no problem. It's when other women enter the picture that shiitake gets awkward. I am so baffled and angry at his double standard. (Like, able to recognize they're his issues, not mine, but still angry.) Rather than try to engage him in discussion, which works for pretty much anything else, I would rather avoid the issue entirely because he just Does Not Get It. But ugh, we tried discussing the Delhi rape case and other women's issues in India, and he didn't get why that kind of systemic abuse makes me afraid for myself (even here!) or why I am so vehemently angry over them. "Disappointed" doesn't even begin to cover it.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2013 8:36 am 
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molasses jane wrote:
I honestly don't understand how the phrase "do you want to get a coffee?" is challenging feminism. I just don't get it. Yes, sometimes the intentions behind that phrase are unclear, but I don't think it's a power play or anti-feminist.
As a gay man, my experience is just that this means "I want to get to know you better and inviting you to get coffee with me is a socially accepted way of doing so". I can only assume straight people mean something similar when they say it. I wouldn't call it sexist or antifeminist. Sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar...

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2013 11:40 am 
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emmalv wrote:
This guy at work calls me Dear sometimes and I'm torn between saying something and not. I'm trying to figure out if it bothers me? I don't think I personally feel violated by it or anything, but it bothers me more on a sociological level. Like when did a term of endearment become acceptable in work situations? My thought was to call him Dear back, but then again it probably won't be received in the "how do you like it don't you feel its weird sense" I would intend it to be.

Ok, as I type I think it bothers me. I have been fortunate to not have dealt with this type of crepe at work, innocent as it may be/sound, in years. Do I just say "I prefer to not be called dear"? That's pretty much polite yet straightforward, right? (I want to be polite, I have to work with this person.)


I would go with something along the lines that you prefer not to be called this kind of name, and that it's really not appropriate for a work context. Something honest, straightforward and professional.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2013 11:49 am 
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ijustdiedinside wrote:
hey, i don't know what that site is, but maybe let's not give them traffic and/or bring them to our site? I'm going to edit the link so there's a space and people have to copy and paste it to see it, ok?
Good call. I cut and pasted the link, and it's the same kind of moronic, rage-inducing stuff we saw on that brotastic "boycott American woman" blog linked to awhile back, which did get kfishered.

ETA: Here's the link to the old thread, but if you want to experience its special brand of racist, misogynist horseshit, please cut and paste the URL into your browser rather than link to it.

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4638&hilit=boycottamericanwomen

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2013 11:29 pm 
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ijustdiedinside wrote:
hey, i don't know what that site is, but maybe let's not give them traffic and/or bring them to our site? I'm going to edit the link so there's a space and people have to copy and paste it to see it, ok?


Absolutely didn't even think of that. Thanks for the edit.

I was looking at picture of hairstyles on google trying to figure out what I want to do next and stumbled across.... That garbage. So much ridiculous judgement about North American women and what their expectations of a "good woman" are. Yuck.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 3:34 am 
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Re: the coffee thing: I have definitely seen men (like, on discussion boards) use the coffee line when they just mean sex, as a way to deflect rejection. If the woman says "No, I have a boyfriend / I'm not intersted in you", the comeback is "Who said anything about that, don't flatter yourself!" If the woman says "I don't know if I know you well enough", the come back is "What's the big deal, it's just coffee". If she says yes, then the guy considers himself one notch closer to closing the deal.

So while some people certainly use the line without afterthoughts, for others the ambiguity is definitely part of a strategy to get women, in a larger dating game where men are the ones who get to score, and not a place where 2 actors get to meet where their desires intersect.


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 8:17 am 
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aelle wrote:
Re: the coffee thing: I have definitely seen men (like, on discussion boards) use the coffee line when they just mean sex, as a way to deflect rejection. If the woman says "No, I have a boyfriend / I'm not intersted in you", the comeback is "Who said anything about that, don't flatter yourself!" If the woman says "I don't know if I know you well enough", the come back is "What's the big deal, it's just coffee". If she says yes, then the guy considers himself one notch closer to closing the deal.


I'm not sure why, but this reminds me of something that happened the very last time I will ever get a manicure (years ago). I was sitting there, trapped by getting a manicure, getting chatted up by the guy doing said manicure. He was kind of flirting with me, but I always feel bad just saying 'I have a boyfriend' because maybe dudes aren't flirting and I don't want to make anyone uncomfortable (which is dumb, bullshiitake, I know), so I usually try to just insert it into the conversation somehow ('Oh yeah, that place is cool, I went with my boyfriend last week' or whatever), but a good opportunity never came up. And then he asked me about my living situation, whether I had a roommate or what, which made me super squicked out, and I told him I lived with my boyfriend. And then he got totally pissed that I didn't tell him I had a boyfriend, accused me of flirting with him (Um, dude? You are in charge of the fate of my nails right now, and you've got a grinder and chemicals and all sorts of torture devices there, I'm going to be nice to you.) and then proceeded to grill me about the scars on my arms, from when I used to cut myself when I was younger.

And I couldn't GO anywhere. Because it was back when I was getting fake nails and he was in the middle of it all. I mean, looking back, I should have asked for a manager at the very least, but I didn't. It was awful, and I've never gotten another manicure since.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 2:24 pm 
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Some friends on facebook are having a discussion that ended up at talking about how girls naturally like princesses and are good at school and can sit still, while boys naturally are rambunctious and like fighting and are fidgety. As usual, my only conclusion from this discussion is that I am unnatural, since I'm a woman (formerly a girl) who never really liked or was good at any of the stuff listed in either the "girl" or the "boy" column. I was a girl who liked building and making stuff, and didn't really differentiate between making stuff with a hammer and nails and making stuff with knitting needles -- it was all taking basic things and making them into something cool. And I wasn't too good at sitting still, and never really liked either princesses or fighting. I wasn't girly, but not a tomboy, either. I have no category, and therefore, it seems, I don't exist. And neither did most of my friends, girls or boys, for that matter.


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 2:33 pm 
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Ha! I think the princess phenomenon is recent? And possibly due to Disney marketing? I don't remember princesses being a thing when I was young.

I liked board games and computer games and loved space shuttles and the idea of space travel. I liked puzzles and figuring out things. I did like barbies but none of my barbies were princesses. And I never sat still in school.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 3:02 pm 
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I had no use for Barbies. Just didn't see the point of them. I loved Cabbage Patch Kids and American Girl dolls, though, at least back when the American Girl dolls were good quality and had stories and history to go with them. (I've looked at some of the new stuff that American Girl is making, and it's pretty obviously more cheaply and sloppily made than the stuff I had when I was a kid.)


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 3:57 pm 
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UGH. This guy.

http://thehairpin.com/2013/08/man-quits ... o-schwyzer

But wait - quelle surprise! - he's back!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... r-old.html

And if you can bear to read any of his actual writing, the phrase ""melodramatic, solipsistic, masturbatory shitshow" will gain hitherto unimagined resonance. BLECH.

http://www.hugoschwyzer.net

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:10 pm 
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Larisa wrote:
Some friends on facebook are having a discussion that ended up at talking about how girls naturally like princesses and are good at school and can sit still, while boys naturally are rambunctious and like fighting and are fidgety. As usual, my only conclusion from this discussion is that I am unnatural, since I'm a woman (formerly a girl) who never really liked or was good at any of the stuff listed in either the "girl" or the "boy" column. I was a girl who liked building and making stuff, and didn't really differentiate between making stuff with a hammer and nails and making stuff with knitting needles -- it was all taking basic things and making them into something cool. And I wasn't too good at sitting still, and never really liked either princesses or fighting. I wasn't girly, but not a tomboy, either. I have no category, and therefore, it seems, I don't exist. And neither did most of my friends, girls or boys, for that matter.


I really like the way you put this! I feel the same way! I loved science and playing football and climbing trees but I also liked reading a ton and I loved lots of the "girly" books (Harriet the Spy, The Little Princess, Nancy Drew, The Famous Five).

And yes, it was weird growing up feeling like you didn't "fit" either group. I mostly hung out with the boys until about 6th grade, when I was kind of kicked out and forced to then float around the margins of the girls group, until I found other marginal people, who then became my very awesome friends (both boys and girls).

I am really interested in supporting L in having that experience, but sometimes it feels like even now other parents are marking off things as "boy" and "girl" and I definitely notice that there is some pressure to have the boys play together, and talk about how much "rougher" they play, which seems dumb, given that Leela is as fond of dirt and hitting things as the next toddler.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 5:29 pm 
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I think American girl wasn't a thing when I was young but with barbies, you did have different types. Cabbage patch came out when I was around 8 (according to wikipedia) but we didn't have a lot of money and they seemed to explode when they came out and it wasn't until a few years after they came out that I got my first one. Also, barbies I guess for me were dressing up and doing different things. It was also a social activity. I liked them but I remember I liked playing board games more :) or reading or whatever else.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 6:20 pm 
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I think that it's important though to allow girls who do like princesses and tutus to be who they are. I am not comfortable with disparaging everything that is traditionally feminine unless a boy likes it.
I am tired of hearing friends apologize because their daughters wanted a pink dress or like sparkly things.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 6:32 pm 
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Sure but it just makes it sound so one dimensional. Children have many interests. It can be princesses (again, I still think that is a more recent thing) but they can also have science kits. Saying that one thing is typical girly, seems to make it so one dimensional.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 7:02 pm 
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Tofulish wrote:
Larisa wrote:
Some friends on facebook are having a discussion that ended up at talking about how girls naturally like princesses and are good at school and can sit still, while boys naturally are rambunctious and like fighting and are fidgety. As usual, my only conclusion from this discussion is that I am unnatural, since I'm a woman (formerly a girl) who never really liked or was good at any of the stuff listed in either the "girl" or the "boy" column. I was a girl who liked building and making stuff, and didn't really differentiate between making stuff with a hammer and nails and making stuff with knitting needles -- it was all taking basic things and making them into something cool. And I wasn't too good at sitting still, and never really liked either princesses or fighting. I wasn't girly, but not a tomboy, either. I have no category, and therefore, it seems, I don't exist. And neither did most of my friends, girls or boys, for that matter.


I really like the way you put this! I feel the same way! I loved science and playing football and climbing trees but I also liked reading a ton and I loved lots of the "girly" books (Harriet the Spy, The Little Princess, Nancy Drew, The Famous Five).

And yes, it was weird growing up feeling like you didn't "fit" either group. I mostly hung out with the boys until about 6th grade, when I was kind of kicked out and forced to then float around the margins of the girls group, until I found other marginal people, who then became my very awesome friends (both boys and girls).

I am really interested in supporting L in having that experience, but sometimes it feels like even now other parents are marking off things as "boy" and "girl" and I definitely notice that there is some pressure to have the boys play together, and talk about how much "rougher" they play, which seems dumb, given that Leela is as fond of dirt and hitting things as the next toddler.


The other side to that same coin is my boy who is gentle and fairly calm (for a 3.5 year old) and does not enjoy rough housing at all. He likes physical play, but in a cooperative way and he looks sort of confused and betrayed when people try to wrestle with him or rough house. The other day he spent 30 minutes talking to a baby lizard and saying he hoped it found it's family soon and to not be afraid of us because we are herbivores and won't hurt him. In some ways that is less ok than the girl who wants to be rough, and it's frustrating trying to help him navigate these social constructs. Thankfully my daughter does not seem to give a fork what anyone thinks of what she likes so far, and has simply gone about her business. I hope she can keep that attitude.


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 7:12 pm 
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linanil wrote:
Sure but it just makes it sound so one dimensional. Children have many interests. It can be princesses (again, I still think that is a more recent thing) but they can also have science kits. Saying that one thing is typical girly, seems to make it so one dimensional.

Young children can obsess but most kids are mulch-dimentional. Again, my only concern is that girls who wish to be feminine are allowed to be do without tsk tsking from those who would rather they not be.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 7:27 pm 
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Vantine wrote:
linanil wrote:
Sure but it just makes it sound so one dimensional. Children have many interests. It can be princesses (again, I still think that is a more recent thing) but they can also have science kits. Saying that one thing is typical girly, seems to make it so one dimensional.
Young children can obsess but most kids are multi-dimentional. Again, my only concern is that girls who wish to be feminine are allowed to be do without tsk tsking from those who would rather they not be.
I don't think princesses are necessarily a recent thing; in fact, my own first career ambition was literally "princess." As in, when people asked 4-year-old me what I wanted to be when I grew up I said, "a princess," and believed that was a legitimate job one could aspire to have (presumably I imagined there would be training involved). I even went so far as to force my parents and (much older, and thus indulgent) siblings address me as "Princess Purplepinksilverandgold." This ambition was eventually replaced and/or augmented by ballerina, veterinarian, newspaper reporter, Olympic gymnast, deep sea diver, and - yes! - even college professor, in preparation for which I inflicted a grueling course of study on my assembled stuffed animals. None of this kept me from climbing trees, playing board games, reading above grade level, or requesting a super-pimped out Tonka truck for Christmas one year. (And for the record? I can seriously rock a tiara, and Princess Professor Berg still sounds pretty good to me!)

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 10:26 pm 
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I had this fantasy when I was a kid that I was really a princess and my real parents were looking for me. Every time we passed an old cathedral I'd be like "that's my castle!" I also wanted to be a paleontologist and dug a lot of holes in our yard looking for dinosaur bones.

I had to unfollow a feminist facebook page that concentrated on feminism and war, which is something I'm interested in...and then today they posted transphobic shiitake. crassholes.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 11:06 pm 
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So I don't know how to feel about Susan Sarandon saying that she isn't "just voting her vagina" - ie although she is a woman, she does not plan to vote for the female New York City mayoral candidate.

Quote:
Susan Sarandon admitted that she was initially interested in Christine Quinn in the New York City mayoral race, but soon “it became clear to me that, you know as a woman, you can’t just vote your vagina.” Sarandon has thrown her support behind Bill de Blasio, the city’s public advocate.


I do think its weirdly dehumanizing to suggest that vaginas vote for other vaginas. Or that Quinn is just a vagina and women voting for her are doing so because of their common vaginas. I think women, like men, vote for candidates that are the closest to them on the issues, and in Sarandon's case (and mine too!) that would be Bill de Blasio. But I don't think we'd say "penises vote for other penises." (Presumably we wouldn't even say that weiners vote for Weiner). Because its weirdly reductive of both the voter and the candidate, right?

http://www.thedailybeast.com/witw/cheat ... agina.html
http://nymag.com/thecut/2013/08/susan-s ... agina.html

Anyone else have clearer thoughts on it?

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 7:19 am 
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I think Sarandon phrased it poorly, but if I can presume to extrapolate her meaning, I think she's saying we shouldn't endorse a candidate simply because they belong to a group with whom we happen to identify if the rest of their platform doesn't accord with our values, ethics, interests, etc. To coin a soundbite, we shouldn't let our gender trump our agenda. I remember similar arguments during the 2008 presidential campaign, when some feminists insisted that women voters had an obligation to endorse Hilary Clinton over Barack Obama, simply because she is a woman. Both were appealing candidates, and if Clinton had won the nomination I'd have voted for her, but at the time I preferred Obama. The same issue was raised in even more egregious terms when McCain chose Sarah Palin as his running mate to (at least partially) attract female voters to the GOP; this was insulting to women, and ultimately disastrous for his campaign. (And arguably the world, since apparently that horrible idiot will never go away now. Nice one, McCain.) As Samantha Bee put it on The Daily Show at the time "As a proud Vagina American myself, I can tell you I'll be voting for McCain in November."

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/fri-august-29-2008/john-mccain-chooses-a-running-mate

The idea that women voters would cast their ballots for a female candidate - any female candidate, even one diametrically opposed to our core beliefs - simply because she is female is demeaning and abhorrent. I think we can all agree that the remaining "glass ceilings" at our highest level of government should be "shattered," but our "obligation" is to elect the person we consider best for the job, not the one with genitalia most similar to our own.

_________________
You can always politely suggest a ham alternative. ~ vijita
Nothing is safe from weiners in my neighborhood... ~ crowderpea
I didn't embarrass him by saying anything about wanking ~ 8ball
"SMLOUNCE!" ~ smurfterrobang?!
http://elizaveganpage.blogspot.com


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