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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 6:42 pm 
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ijustdiedinside wrote:
Mr. Shankly wrote:
I was at work today and asked these two college aged guys if they needed help and they just kept walking by me and said, "Nope!" Then I came around to see them standing in line while the mobile rep (male) was assisting someone who was buying a phone and I asked them if they were just checking out and they looked at me and completely turned from me and started asking the mobile rep questions.


ugh that sounds really annoying! i'm not sure where you work, but i always had the experience of going into electronics or hardware stores and being totally ignored while men around me would be helped. if i brought a boyfriend with me, they'd try to help him. eff that.


Mr. Shankly, that is the pits! Happened to me once (at least) at my job and it really pissed me off.

As for hardware stores, I've always been helped rather well, but then again I always make a beeline for an employee and ask a lot of questions. I don't know my way around because home repair (and other things involving tools) does not interest me in the least, and I like to spend as little time wandering around as possible. Whenever I have gone to a hardware store with a boyfriend, they like to wander and refuse to ask questions, so I usually sneak away and ask someone in order to get out faster.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 7:01 pm 
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ijustdiedinside wrote:
Mr. Shankly wrote:
I was at work today and asked these two college aged guys if they needed help and they just kept walking by me and said, "Nope!" Then I came around to see them standing in line while the mobile rep (male) was assisting someone who was buying a phone and I asked them if they were just checking out and they looked at me and completely turned from me and started asking the mobile rep questions.


ugh that sounds really annoying! i'm not sure where you work, but i always had the experience of going into electronics or hardware stores and being totally ignored while men around me would be helped. if i brought a boyfriend with me, they'd try to help him. eff that.


We make it a point at work that whoever says "What can I help you with?" is the one who answers any questions, no matter who they're directed at, if there are two of us standing at the counter. So if I asked and the customer talks to my coworker, I have to answer the customer. It's actually a really awesome rule, and it gets a lot of (mostly) men to stop assuming I don't know the answer to their questions.

That and I stare them down until they realize how offensive and stupid it is that they think I (the professional) don't know the answer to their questions. This works remarkably well for comments on my gender, age, and name (which is considered a man's name by...everyone).

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 7:20 pm 
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ijustdiedinside wrote:
Mr. Shankly wrote:
I was at work today and asked these two college aged guys if they needed help and they just kept walking by me and said, "Nope!" Then I came around to see them standing in line while the mobile rep (male) was assisting someone who was buying a phone and I asked them if they were just checking out and they looked at me and completely turned from me and started asking the mobile rep questions.


ugh that sounds really annoying! i'm not sure where you work, but i always had the experience of going into electronics or hardware stores and being totally ignored while men around me would be helped. if i brought a boyfriend with me, they'd try to help him. eff that.

I work in electronics. I'm also the only female in my department.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 7:29 pm 
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missdelaney wrote:
We make it a point at work that whoever says "What can I help you with?" is the one who answers any questions, no matter who they're directed at, if there are two of us standing at the counter. So if I asked and the customer talks to my coworker, I have to answer the customer. It's actually a really awesome rule, and it gets a lot of (mostly) men to stop assuming I don't know the answer to their questions.

That and I stare them down until they realize how offensive and stupid it is that they think I (the professional) don't know the answer to their questions. This works remarkably well for comments on my gender, age, and name (which is considered a man's name by...everyone).

I wish everyone at my work had that courtesy and most of them do but the mobile rep is a royal asparagus and treats me like he's my manager and refers to all women as "young ladies" even after I expressed to him how condescending it was.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 7:39 pm 
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When I went with my boyfriend to get him a smartphone is was the one asking questions because I had already had one for three years and knew a lot more about them. The guy answered him until my SO said 'talk to her she's the one who knows about this stuff.'

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 7:43 pm 
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We were shopping for a freezer last year and I got to one of the stores first (can't remember if it was Home Depot or Lowe's). There were two employees in the appliances department who clearly saw me and didn't have any customers, but they completely ignored me. Within seconds of my boyfriend arriving, they came up to him and asked if he needed help. I was the main decision maker for that purchase, jerks.


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 9:44 am 
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I usually have an easy time getting help in hardware stores. Then again, there's only two i go to, and they both have really awesome customer service.
The other day the guy from the electric company came to read our meter. Usually they leave a note saying they coudn't do it because of our dogs, but this time i was home so i put the dogs away. I was then informed that he couldn't read the meter because there were too many plants in the way, so "could you please get your husband to trim them." I really don't understand why he would assume anyone is married, and why he couldn't just say "please make sure they get trimmed." I should have just told him to wait five minutes and i would do it, but i was in the middle of baking.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 10:52 am 
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I always assumed chain hardware store employees were just generally unhelpful. Even when I know exactly what I'm looking for and just need to be told where it is, when I do track down an employee they don't know. Or when I need some skilled advice like how to attach this thing to this thing, thank god for google and cell phones because the employees will answer "I don't know" or "that won't work, you'll have to buy two new things"

Maybe if I bring a penis with me next time I'll fare better.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 11:13 am 
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Years ago (in around 1984 when I worked in an office supply store) a man actually refused to let me help him and told me because I was a female and "shouldn't be working".

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2013 11:15 pm 
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The whole Cherice Morales case is really challenging my feminism. I hope the judge is removed and the teacher who raped his 14 year old student ends up with a more significant jail sentence than 30 days.
http://www.cnn.com/2013/08/28/justice/m ... -sentence/

I really liked this article, which draws the distinction between agreeing to sex and consenting to it. http://www.xojane.com/issues/stacey-ram ... ce-morales There is a petition to remove Judge Baugh from the bench for his statements about rape.

I was thinking about j-dub's comment earlier in this thread that men are socialized/accultured to think that their role is to be predators and women and girls are prey. And how that means that the predator doesn't really owe any duty of care to the prey, so it would be much better it would be for all of us, if we shifted to different model and held adult men accountable for understanding that girls under a certain age should be off-limits because they can't consent fully.

I wish we could all agree that teenagers are testing boundaries and as adults, its our job to hold those boundaries for them. Power dynamics between adults and minors really mean that its very easy for adults to prey on minors, who are often looking to the adults around them for cues for what is acceptable and don't yet have a lot of experience and judgment.

Two stories I always think about:
First, a friend of mine lost her virginity at 13, because she and her friends were all dressed up and snuck out to go to the boardwalk, and some college students invited them to a party. So you have three thirteen year olds getting drunk with 20 something guys, and they played spin the bottle and the guys told my friend that she had to have sex with one of them. And she didn't want to but really didn't have the ability to advocate for her own limits, so she ended up having sex with him, and then felt really terrible about it.

Second, another friend of mine had her first sexual experience at 14 with a friend's Dad, because he was nice to her. She says even now that she pursued him, and made a lot of the invitations, because she wanted him to like her. And then when her friend's parents separated after the mother found out, she was slutshamed for having had this experience. But really, she was just a teenager acting out, and it was on the adult - her friend's Dad to set the limits.

So I can see how those encounters feel like they are agreed to, but aren't consented to. I know that we've had this discussion on the boards and a few people have posted about their relationships as teens where they felt like they were in charge, even though they were minors, but still, I think its useful to have a brightline, strict liability standard for consent.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 8:19 am 
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I had the opposite happen to me as a teenager. When I was 16 I had a crush on a much older guy (30) from work. He was my friend but he set clear boundaries that I was too young for him. He managed to do it in a way that didn't make me feel unattractive and stupid either. I was lucky.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 8:54 am 
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T, I really like the way you framed that--agreed to versus consented to. I've always talked about it as coerced vs enthusiastic consent but I think your way feels a lot more accessible.

Especially for young men who may be thinking "but she said okay/didn't say no so how could I have done anything wrong?!" without the understanding that women are taught from a very young age that men are dangerous and violent and that they will take what they want*. I can't count the number of women I know who would have sex they didn't want because saying yes to unwanted sex is a lot better than (potentially) being physically forced to. The power balance inherent in every heterosexual coupling within the patriarchy makes sex very fraught with potential danger and that is something that I think is very hard for men to understand.

*Which of course isn't true of all men, but I would say it is one of the over-riding ways young women are taught to think about men in this culture.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 8:57 am 
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Chiming in to say that I like T'lish's agreed vs consented to as well, and that I wish it were easier to bring attention to the dangers of power imbalance. We seem to get it. (A lot of other people don't.)

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 10:20 am 
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I can't take credit for it! It was in the article, but it really resonated with me that there is a difference between agreeing to do something and full legal consent. I thought the article was amazing and I am still thinking about it.

I find j-dub's use of the description of the way we teach girls and boys that the relationship between men-woman parallels a prey-predator dynamic so interesting. I really want to raise my daughter to be able to have strong happy relationships based on respect and consent, and to grow up pushing her limits surrounded by adults who will hold for her and keep her safe. And I really worry about how to do that.

It challenges my feminism to have a daughter!

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 10:25 am 
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A friend of mine was telling me that her six year old daughter has friends who are already getting "crushes" on boys and acting out "crush" behavior (moping around, trying to get a boy's attention etc). Her daughter was having fun with a six year old boy and when he was asked if he had a good time he said "Whoa! I like her, but its not serious." Its kind of sad that little girls and boys don't feel like they can play together without being teased about being boyfriend and girlfriend.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 9:12 pm 
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A friend posted this steaming pile of garbage on FB and I am having A REALLY HARD TIME not responding in VERY STRONG TERMS. (Honestly, I am seeing red for about a dozen reasons right now. GAAH!)

http://givenbreath.com/2013/09/03/fyi-i ... nage-girl/

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 9:18 pm 
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Desdemona wrote:
A friend posted this steaming pile of garbage on FB and I am having A REALLY HARD TIME not responding in VERY STRONG TERMS. (Honestly, I am seeing red for about a dozen reasons right now. GAAH!)

http://givenbreath.com/2013/09/03/fyi-i ... nage-girl/


Words are utterly failing me.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 9:19 pm 
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Quote:
We hope to raise men with a strong moral compass, and men of integrity don’t linger over pictures of scantily clad high-school girls.


Because their Mommies won't let them.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 9:23 pm 
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And ironically it seems like they sat down to linger over pictures of scantily clad high school girls as a family...I mean enough to notice some girl isn't wearing a bra and how shes arching her back is more than a glance, so way to all perv out together?

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 9:53 pm 
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Fee wrote:
And ironically it seems like they sat down to linger over pictures of scantily clad high school girls as a family...I mean enough to notice some girl isn't wearing a bra and how shes arching her back is more than a glance, so way to all perv out together?
Right??

To say nothing of the assumption that OMG boys are incapable of controlling their monstrous urges once they've seen a picture of a girl in her jammies (thus becoming aware for the first time of the female anatomy).
Quote:
Did you know that once a male sees you in a state of undress, he can’t ever un-see it?
ERMAGERD - they would never have known or even thought about the fact that girls have boobies and stuff if I hadn't put the filthy, sinful idea in their innocent heads. Now they can't think of anything else! I HAVE DESTROYED THEIR LIVES!
Quote:
You don’t want the Hall boys to only think of you in this sexual way, do you?
NO! But once they've seen a picture of a girl in her bedroom they can't imagine her as anything but a place to imagine putting their weiners! And now it's too late! I've posted a photo Mrs Hall doesn't like, so now I'm a wanton temptress who must be stoned in the marketplace for corrupting her sons! (Or unfriended by these freaks, which actually sounds pretty awesome.)
Quote:
Some young men are fighting the daily uphill battle to keep their minds pure, and their thoughts praiseworthy.
But they are doomed to fail because of skanky hosebags who post things that "make it easy for their male friends to imagine them naked in their bedrooms. Next thing you know these nasty sluts will be offering these pure, unsuspecting boys a bite of an apple, and we all know where that leads, right?
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Every day I pray for the women my boys will love.
Me, too, lady. But I pray even harder that they get the hell away from you at the earliest opportunity. And has it ever occurred to you that any of them might fall in love with men? How about talking to your sons about not objectifying people instead of shaming random teenagers, you bigoted, judgmental stalker?

HULKSMASH!

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 10:05 pm 
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Desdemona wrote:
unfriended by these freaks, which actually sounds pretty awesome


You are going to post a sexy pajama-no-bra picture on your FB wall for them to be incensed and defriend you over, aren't you?

::trolls D's FB page::

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 10:16 pm 
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I was impressed by how much teenage male nudity was all over that blog post, especially teenage male nudity posing suggestively. I am surprised Mrs. Hall doesn't understand that I can't unsee that either.


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 10:21 pm 
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Tofulish wrote:
Desdemona wrote:
unfriended by these freaks, which actually sounds pretty awesome


You are going to post a sexy pajama-no-bra picture on your FB wall for them to be incensed and defriend you over, aren't you?

::trolls D's FB page::
You wish! I should clarify that the person I know merely reposted the link to that blog; thank god and all his little devils I am wholly unacquainted with the pervy Mrs Hall.

I'm still sputtering over the implication - actually, it's just a straight up statement - that girls on the internet are responsible for whether or not her sons become "men with a strong moral compass, and men of integrity." Because, you know, understanding that women are people with agency and rights, and taking personal responsibility for their actions is just not on the radar screen.
Ariann wrote:
I was impressed by how much teenage male nudity was all over that blog post, especially teenage male nudity posing suggestively. I am surprised Mrs. Hall doesn't understand that I can't unsee that either.
Good point. Thanks to those photos, I can no longer even attempt to control my rampant, dirty, bestial female urges.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 11:26 pm 
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As the mother of two teen girls... that blog post made me want to hurl.

Shall we talk about the boys who my youngest knows who are asking her to send nudes? Who are messaging her on facebook and not even her friends. When she has posted nothing to suggest sex in any way on her page. It is not up to my daughter to ensure anyone's moral compass but her own.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 6:28 am 
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kfad wrote:
As the mother of two teen girls... that blog post made me want to hurl.

Shall we talk about the boys who my youngest knows who are asking her to send nudes? Who are messaging her on facebook and not even her friends. When she has posted nothing to suggest sex in any way on her page. It is not up to my daughter to ensure anyone's moral compass but her own.
Exactly! And as the mother of boys, this woman's reinforcement of the idea that all men are proto-sex-fiends who are rendered helpless (and ethically bankrupt) at the mere sight of the female body makes me furious. If she's raised sons who are incapable of seeing women as anything but sexual objects or "women of character"- to say nothing of controlling their behavior and taking responsibility for their actions - it seems to me that she's the one who needs to take a long, hard critical look at herself and knock off the madonna/hors d'oeuvre bullshiitake. That's the screwed-up thinking that blames rape victims for being assaulted, and I think we've just about enough of that, thanks very much.

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