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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 7:32 am 
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Chip Strong
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Desdemona wrote:
HULKSMASH!


I think you just summed up all the things I wanted to say about this article!

If I had Facebook, I would totally be off taking some pyjamas-no-bra photos to post right now too ...

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 10:44 am 
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OH forking shiitake. MY COUSIN JUST POSTED THIS LEGITIMATELY. GAH.

ETA: What do I do? I should probably ignore it, right? I mean, I'm not going to get anything besides frustration if I try to bring up any reasonable points. But I mean, I just... ugh.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 11:40 am 
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ndpittman wrote:
OH forking shiitake. MY COUSIN JUST POSTED THIS LEGITIMATELY. GAH.

ETA: What do I do? I should probably ignore it, right? I mean, I'm not going to get anything besides frustration if I try to bring up any reasonable points. But I mean, I just... ugh.
In the end I couldn't help myself; this is what I posted. (NB that it's much like what I posted here, but I tried to affect some measure of calm!)

Ugh. Seriously? I don't know which makes me more furious - this woman's reinforcement of the "all men are rendered helpless (and apparently ethically bankrupt) at the mere sight of the female body" trope, or her imposition of her own screwed-up madonna/hors d'oeuvre dichotomy on other people's daughters. (And what's with all the pictures of her shirtless sons? Double standard, anyone?) It's not up to high school girls to ensure that Mrs Hall's children have a moral compass; that's the thinking that blames rape victims for being assaulted. If this woman has raised sons incapable of seeing women as anything but sexual objects or "women of character" (to say nothing of controlling their behavior and taking responsibility for their actions), SHE'S the one who needs to take a long, critical look in the mirror. Oh, and I'm just going to go out on a limb here and suggest that a picture of a girl in her PJs is probably NOT her children's first clue that girls have breasts; frankly, the image of the Halls sitting down "as a family" to critique pictures of scantily clad teenagers is creepily disturbing. For the sake of her sons and whoever they eventually do get involved with - and has it occurred to Mrs Hall that any of her sons might be gay? - I hope they find access to some 21st century ideas about feminism and gender relations, because they're certainly not getting any of that from their mother. Alas.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 12:35 pm 
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D I really like your response. I'm curious, did your friend reply?

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 3:31 pm 
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Thank you, Des, putting into words what I was thinking.
This is really bothering me. I have sat with it for awhile now and am furious at a woman I don't know, had no idea existed until that link.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 6:49 am 
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kfad wrote:
Thank you, Des, putting into words what I was thinking.
This is really bothering me. I have sat with it for awhile now and am furious at a woman I don't know, had no idea existed until that link.
I know! It put me into a berserker rage, too, but I'm glad to see that this steaming pile of toxic, retrograde rubbish being addressed in other forums.

http://jezebel.com/concerned-mom-slutty ... 1251831479

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 8:15 am 
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I have to write about this because it pissed me off so much the other day. I have never ever gotten angry in front of a customer before. I'll go and complain to my co-workers or friends or generally feel like shiitake after a customer treats me poorly but rarely, if ever, do I actually get angry in front of them. That was until the other day when these two old women asked me to help them out with one of our combo players. When I arrived to the area, there was an old man standing there who was with them. They asked me questions and I answered but after every time I answered the man would say, "That's not what that is. That's __________(condescendingly explains to me what he thinks it is." And I normally just let that go because if someone wants to not listen to me, whatever, they can fork up their expensive purchase if they want, I did my job by helping them. But after this went on he said to me, "So you don't actually have any idea what you're talking about." I threw my hands up and said back to him, "You know what, I'm done here. I've tried to help you and you have been nothing but rude. I'm done. I'll find someone else to help you but I'm walking away right now."

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 8:26 am 
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An in-law just posted that article!! And some of my other in-laws are liking it! Arrrgh. I deeply regret being FB friends with my husband's family.


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 8:59 am 
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My sister in law posted it but I didn't read it. And my sister in law has been posting a lot of crepe since she had her second child nearly 2 months ago. When we went to visit (baby was 3 weeks old), she said that having a girl was so much different than a boy. Her first was a boy, her baby is a girl but I'm like... it is a baby, babies are different but I wouldn't tell her that. I don't know, my husband said he is about ready to stop reading her feed because she has become mom-obsessed or something (she is his sister).

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:08 am 
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I wonder if she realizes that grown men (and women), are also reading her post and maybe looking at her boys, unable to unsee them in their state of undress... Because gosh, they sure have purty mouths.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 11:01 am 
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Desdemona wrote:
kfad wrote:
Thank you, Des, putting into words what I was thinking.
This is really bothering me. I have sat with it for awhile now and am furious at a woman I don't know, had no idea existed until that link.
I know! It put me into a berserker rage, too, but I'm glad to see that this steaming pile of toxic, retrograde rubbish being addressed in other forums.

http://jezebel.com/concerned-mom-slutty ... 1251831479


I decided instead of commenting on my cousin's post to share the jezebel article. I hope she sees it, but if not, oh well.

Slacktivism!

Mr. Shankly, that would infuriate me! I think you handled it as well as you could.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 12:58 pm 
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What is really bothering me is that people are telling me that it is just her religious beliefs and that it is fine.
But the problem is that she is projecting her need to keep her children away from harlots but letting them on facebook and putting the responsibility of ethics and morals on other people. If you want to protect your children so much limit them... not me or my girls.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 2:56 pm 
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I really liked this piece and found the pictures she takes of herself, to illustrate how silly the original blogger is, hysterical.
http://feminspire.com/fyi-mom-bloggers- ... age-girls/

Quote:
Don’t get mad at the girls that are operating within our forked up culture. Get mad at our forked up culture for providing girls so little room to explore and grow, their every action analyzed, dismantled and criticized. Get mad at a culture that tells boys that they are not responsible for their actions, that girls are responsible for the actions of boys. And then, after you get mad, change the conversation in your home from what girls can do to keep from tempting boys, to what boys can do to see and treat girls and women as equals, as peers, as friends, as people. Be part of that change.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:03 pm 
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Mr. Shankly wrote:
"You know what, I'm done here. I've tried to help you and you have been nothing but rude. I'm done. I'll find someone else to help you but I'm walking away right now."


Well done!

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:53 pm 
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jean wrote:
Mr. Shankly wrote:
"You know what, I'm done here. I've tried to help you and you have been nothing but rude. I'm done. I'll find someone else to help you but I'm walking away right now."


Well done!


Sometimes, this is all that can be said. Unfortunately so, but it's the truth.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 10:03 pm 
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jean wrote:
Mr. Shankly wrote:
"You know what, I'm done here. I've tried to help you and you have been nothing but rude. I'm done. I'll find someone else to help you but I'm walking away right now."


Well done!


I don't know what your work thought of it, but I'm impressed.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 9:48 am 
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My husband commented last night that his sister posted that article and all my ppker friends posted the Jezebel article. I think he actually read the article that his sister posted and declared it dumb.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 4:59 pm 
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My aunt posted it and I (politely) exploded. She is awesome and feminist, but can be unthoughtful about what she posts. She has fast "share" tendencies. She took it down immediately and it led to a really great discussion on feminism, young women, and what messages we really should be sending to young women. It ended up being really positive.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 11:00 pm 
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Another awesome response to Mrs Hall
http://putdowntheurinalcake.com/2013/09 ... nage-girl/

Quote:
I’m raising a young man, too — three of them, actually, though only one’s a teen so far — and I want him to learn that once he sees a young woman as a sexual object (which he undoubtedly will, what with being human and a sexual being, just like most* men and women), he can look with new eyes and see her also as a friend, as a member of his community, as someone worth championing, as someone with talents and gifts, as someone to learn from, and maybe even, eventually, as a romantic interest. Because the real goal, of course, for all of us, is how to stop objectification and to start seeing people.

The last issue I had with your letter was on the subject of second chances. “And so, in our house,” you wrote, “there are no second chances, ladies. If you want to stay friendly with the Hall men, you’ll have to keep your clothes on, and your posts decent. If you try to post a sexy selfie, or an inappropriate YouTube video – even once – you’ll be booted off our on-line island.” And I guess, to be completely honest here, the reason this made me so sad is because I’m someone who needed a second chance as a young woman. And a third chance. And a fourth chance. Infinity chances, really. The difference then, of course, was there was no social media to check. Or ways for my insecurity, my disrespect of myself, my questioning, my doubts, my wandering, my desperate search to find myself, to find value, to find meaning… to be part of the permanent record.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 11:02 pm 
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Another awesome response to Mrs Hall
http://putdowntheurinalcake.com/2013/09 ... nage-girl/

Quote:
I’m raising a young man, too — three of them, actually, though only one’s a teen so far — and I want him to learn that once he sees a young woman as a sexual object (which he undoubtedly will, what with being human and a sexual being, just like most* men and women), he can look with new eyes and see her also as a friend, as a member of his community, as someone worth championing, as someone with talents and gifts, as someone to learn from, and maybe even, eventually, as a romantic interest. Because the real goal, of course, for all of us, is how to stop objectification and to start seeing people.

The last issue I had with your letter was on the subject of second chances. “And so, in our house,” you wrote, “there are no second chances, ladies. If you want to stay friendly with the Hall men, you’ll have to keep your clothes on, and your posts decent. If you try to post a sexy selfie, or an inappropriate YouTube video – even once – you’ll be booted off our on-line island.” And I guess, to be completely honest here, the reason this made me so sad is because I’m someone who needed a second chance as a young woman. And a third chance. And a fourth chance. Infinity chances, really. The difference then, of course, was there was no social media to check. Or ways for my insecurity, my disrespect of myself, my questioning, my doubts, my wandering, my desperate search to find myself, to find value, to find meaning… to be part of the permanent record.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 1:53 am 
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Tofulish wrote:
Another awesome response to Mrs Hall
http://putdowntheurinalcake.com/2013/09 ... nage-girl/

Quote:
I’m raising a young man, too — three of them, actually, though only one’s a teen so far — and I want him to learn that once he sees a young woman as a sexual object (which he undoubtedly will, what with being human and a sexual being, just like most* men and women), he can look with new eyes and see her also as a friend, as a member of his community, as someone worth championing, as someone with talents and gifts, as someone to learn from, and maybe even, eventually, as a romantic interest. Because the real goal, of course, for all of us, is how to stop objectification and to start seeing people.

The last issue I had with your letter was on the subject of second chances. “And so, in our house,” you wrote, “there are no second chances, ladies. If you want to stay friendly with the Hall men, you’ll have to keep your clothes on, and your posts decent. If you try to post a sexy selfie, or an inappropriate YouTube video – even once – you’ll be booted off our on-line island.” And I guess, to be completely honest here, the reason this made me so sad is because I’m someone who needed a second chance as a young woman. And a third chance. And a fourth chance. Infinity chances, really. The difference then, of course, was there was no social media to check. Or ways for my insecurity, my disrespect of myself, my questioning, my doubts, my wandering, my desperate search to find myself, to find value, to find meaning… to be part of the permanent record.

The first bit I quite liked, but I don't know about the last part of this. Doesn't it sort of imply that posting sexy pics of yourself is wrong and that young women who do are disrespecting themselves and just haven't found meaning in their lives yet? To me it sort of seems like she is saying that it is wrong for these girls to behave the way they do, but that they need another chance.


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 6:44 am 
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Shamini wrote:
Tofulish wrote:
Another awesome response to Mrs Hall
http://putdowntheurinalcake.com/2013/09 ... nage-girl/

Quote:
I’m raising a young man, too — three of them, actually, though only one’s a teen so far — and I want him to learn that once he sees a young woman as a sexual object (which he undoubtedly will, what with being human and a sexual being, just like most* men and women), he can look with new eyes and see her also as a friend, as a member of his community, as someone worth championing, as someone with talents and gifts, as someone to learn from, and maybe even, eventually, as a romantic interest. Because the real goal, of course, for all of us, is how to stop objectification and to start seeing people.

The last issue I had with your letter was on the subject of second chances. “And so, in our house,” you wrote, “there are no second chances, ladies. If you want to stay friendly with the Hall men, you’ll have to keep your clothes on, and your posts decent. If you try to post a sexy selfie, or an inappropriate YouTube video – even once – you’ll be booted off our on-line island.” And I guess, to be completely honest here, the reason this made me so sad is because I’m someone who needed a second chance as a young woman. And a third chance. And a fourth chance. Infinity chances, really. The difference then, of course, was there was no social media to check. Or ways for my insecurity, my disrespect of myself, my questioning, my doubts, my wandering, my desperate search to find myself, to find value, to find meaning… to be part of the permanent record.

The first bit I quite liked, but I don't know about the last part of this. Doesn't it sort of imply that posting sexy pics of yourself is wrong and that young women who do are disrespecting themselves and just haven't found meaning in their lives yet? To me it sort of seems like she is saying that it is wrong for these girls to behave the way they do, but that they need another chance.


I think it depends a bit on her perspective. I've known young girls/women to do things because they just wanted people to like them or what it is what they thought they should do or whatever and they may have regretted those decisions later on in life but that is just a bit of learning. On the other hand, there may be young girls/women that do things because they felt strong and confident, which is fine. So I can get what she is saying if she is saying from the perspective of maybe girls are doing things (posting pictures/videos) because they lack self confidence but that definitely isn't always the case.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 7:06 am 
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I took it the same as linanlil. Also I was incredibly insecure as a teen, and always looking for the worst "reassurance" so I relate to what the blogger is saying.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 9:50 am 
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Insecurity can definitely lead to girls looking for reassurance and sometimes in ways which they'll later regret, I just don't think that other people should judge them for that, and I don't understand why there should be talk of getting another chance from others, because those girls haven't done anybody but (sometimes) themselves harm and they haven't done anything morally wrong.
I don't know, I may be misunderstanding the meaning of "getting another chance" my first language isn't English, but I just think that getting another chance means something along the lines of forgiving people and let them try and do the right thing. Please correct me if i'm wrong.


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 10:00 am 
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I think you're reading it right, and it's problematic for sure. I don't know what the answer is. I just try to reinforce to young people in my life, especially my nieces as stepdaughter, that their value is far greater than just being pretty and amenable.

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