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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:27 pm 
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So the first part of the article I agreed with then it took a turn for the worse..

I think in part many fields value experience over degrees. So many degrees, including MBAs are often a formality. This goes for men and women though. With women though, we always feel we need to be a step above, especially in male dominated fields so an MBA may give a slight edge to equal the playing field against men that don't have MBAs. I am in a very male dominated field and I also belong to a women's group for women trying to advance in the field. A lot of women try to pursue as many certifications and degrees just to level the playing field but the sad thing is that many of the degrees are geared toward people already in the field, not people breaking into the field. So the women end up spending a lot of money and time getting a degree that doesn't really advance their career.

The rest of the article though is stupid though, not pursuing an MBA because a woman _might_ have kids that would take her out of the work field isn't a reason to not get an MBA.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 1:39 pm 
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After women who laugh while eating salad...

Yogurt for men.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Uwux-E63rU

You eat it with a fork because apparently spoons are for sissies.


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 6:55 pm 
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Why is someone I know posting a link on facebook from a group called Ban Islam? The link is about how Canadian officials "are allowing" women in burqas to bypass security checks. Women in burqas! SUCH A THREAT! *rips out teeth*

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 5:02 am 
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I can't find a bigger picture, but:

Image

Basically, a tabloid newspaper that profits off of Page 3 has started a campaign to tell women where they can and can't wear veils.


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 6:25 am 
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Ugh, I forking hate the Sun.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 9:56 am 
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"no, WE get to decide what women wear!"

ETA: Note how the Sun apparently non-ironically uses the word 'freedom' in point #4.

PPS: The Sun is also promoting a vegan before 6pm book?! Have I stumbled into a parallel dimension? Oh right, I just took a look at the headline again. We're back.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 12:14 pm 
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Desdemona wrote:
Now THIS, on the other hand...

http://www.wcvb.com/news/local/metro-we ... index.html

I don't even know where the hell to start except to say that maybe this dude and Mrs Hall should board the same rocket and blast off for Planet Slut-Shaming Misogyny.

Oh, and if you want to go for the rage-induced migraine gusto, go ahead and read the comments on on of our local station's FB page. (Don't say you weren't warned!)

https://www.facebook.com/wcvb5?ref=ts&fref=ts


Could you comment a little more on why the father's actions were so bad? I mean, i totally get slut shaming is bad, women should wear what they want, etc. But it seems like parents still have a right to parent their children. It seems like if the daughter has the right to walk around in short shorts, then it is only fair that the father can do it, too. I think it's a little wrong that he was doing it to embarrass her, but maybe he found her short clothing embarrassing as well. When i was in middle and high school, i wasn't allowed to wear clothing that left me very exposed, like shirts that showed my belly. I don't see that as "slut shaming;" i see it as parents trying to shape their children, just like they do with all kinds of things, not just clothing. Now i wear tiny skirts and belly shirts, and my parents don't say a thing.
The article says the daughter is 19, so she should be old enough to make her own decisions about what to wear. But her parents were also speaking specifically on clothing worm to a family gathering. I'm sure there are plenty of outfits i have that my parents would object to me wearing around some members of my family, and i don't see that as slut shaming.Would it have been wrong for him to do this if she was 14?

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 12:37 pm 
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Shame is never an effective parenting tactic. All it will do is foster distrust in the family.
And teaching any age child to be ashamed of their body furthers this idea that bodies are wrong.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 12:42 pm 
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kfad wrote:
Shame is never an effective parenting tactic. All it will do is foster distrust in the family.
And teaching any age child to be ashamed of their body furthers this idea that bodies are wrong.

ten years of therapy, and you boil it down into three easy sentences. where were you when I was a teenager?? ha

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 1:32 pm 
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torque wrote:
kfad wrote:
Shame is never an effective parenting tactic. All it will do is foster distrust in the family.
And teaching any age child to be ashamed of their body furthers this idea that bodies are wrong.

ten years of therapy, and you boil it down into three easy sentences. where were you when I was a teenager?? ha


Probably being shamed by my mother... ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 2:03 pm 
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ha. i'm sorry. i read that article and was thinking "why are people getting all upset about this,if this had been my family..." and then realized that those types of comparisons are just not worth going there for.....
what are our kids going to be like, if they don't have to spend their first ten or fifteen years of adulthood hating themselves? I can't wait to see. [i'm sure some other crepe will move into that slot to become my fault though.]

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 4:03 pm 
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torque wrote:
kfad wrote:
Shame is never an effective parenting tactic. All it will do is foster distrust in the family.
And teaching any age child to be ashamed of their body furthers this idea that bodies are wrong.

ten years of therapy, and you boil it down into three easy sentences. where were you when I was a teenager??
Right?!

This guy doesn't strike me as being particularly bright, so it may be that he's actually unaware that that his actions read as a passive-aggressive way of saying he's ashamed of his daughter, but that's no excuse. That he chose to do it via a puerile stunt performed for an audience of strangers, rather than attempting to have a respectful conversation with her about his discomfort with her wardrobe choices only makes matters worse. Furthermore, it illustrates his failure to understand or accept that a 19 year old woman (hardly a "child" to be "parented") has A. personal agency and B. the right to wear whatever the hell she wants. If her father is honestly concerned about what his daughter is wearing, maybe he should try to think about and articulate why that is, instead of publicly humiliating her and suggesting that her appearance is somehow shameful or embarrassing.

Castigating women for "exposing themselves" to sexual objectification (or even attack) transfers responsibility for predatory behavior from the perpetrator to the victim, and that is fundamentally wrong-headed and dangerous thinking. Instead of treating his adult daughter like a person, this man made what amounts to a public statement of his belief that women are property to be objectified and controlled by men; this is how our culture takes away women's subjectivity and makes it something conferred upon them by fathers, boyfriends, husbands, random guys who look at them, etc.

I know people get tired of hearing the phrase "rape culture," but making women responsible for the responses they might evoke in men reinforces some very deep-seated and harmful beliefs. The recent spate of "OMG the girls have to be publicly shamed so they won't keep choosing their own clothes and making everyone have to objectify and/or assault them!" is extremely disturbing, and the fact that this guy's stunt got a whole lot of reinforcement from his fellow misogynists on the internet only makes it that much more troubling. And for the record, the worn-out trope of the "protective" father who wants to threaten and intimidate any young men who show an interest in his daughter is merely emotional abuse in the guise of "responsible" parenting. Not only is it ignorant and insulting to men in its implication that they are all mindless, ethically void automatons who become unhinged (and unaccountable for their actions) at the sight of female flesh, it's degrading to the women from whom it strips any power or agency over themselves and their bodies. F*ck that shiitake.

Oh, and a family dress code in which a father decrees that "modest is hottest" for his daughters is just plain icky. The idea that any father has an opinion about what looks "hottest" on his children (of any age or gender) is weird; that he would share that with her gives me the creeps. Personally, I can say without reservation that if my father had ever indicated that something I wore was "hot" {{{SHUDDER}}} I can assure you that not only would I never have worn it again, I'd have burnt it. Right after I moved out of the house.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 6:28 pm 
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I was lollin' at that spam thread until I got to the end. Yuck.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 3:45 am 
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Desdemona wrote:
Personally, I can say without reservation that if my father had ever indicated that something I wore was "hot" {{{SHUDDER}}} I can assure you that not only would I never have worn it again, I'd have burnt it. Right after I moved out of the house.


Ha! Agree with your whole post. "Modest is hottest" is a popular phrase among young Mormons (ex-Mormon here!), and I always found it perplexing. Talk about working at crossed purposes. By their logic, Shouldn't we dress IMmodestly then, to save the men from witnessing that blistering hotness?

Once, when my Young Women president gave a talk about the importance of modesty but ended with 'it's always MORE attractive to leave a little somethin' to the imagination" I raised my hand and asked "what are we trying to get the boys to imagine?" The look she gave me... But you'll see that logic a lot: it's sexier not to look too sexy, so don't look too sexy, because you'll look even sexier! Forkably virtuous!

I'm guessing Mr. Short-Shorts is LDS, judging by the mention of Utah, the weekly family night, possible garment neckline peeping out, and his daughter's "great worth." So it's wryly amusing that he broke the modesty commandments himself (including possible removal of sacred undergarments) and became FAMOUS for it to make a point.

When I left the church, getting to wear whatever the hell I wanted was amaaaaazing. Years later, the thrill hasn't worn off.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 7:43 am 
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Rebekah wrote:
Desdemona wrote:
Personally, I can say without reservation that if my father had ever indicated that something I wore was "hot" {{{SHUDDER}}} I can assure you that not only would I never have worn it again, I'd have burnt it. Right after I moved out of the house.


Ha! Agree with your whole post. "Modest is hottest" is a popular phrase among young Mormons (ex-Mormon here!), and I always found it perplexing. Talk about working at crossed purposes. By their logic, Shouldn't we dress IMmodestly then, to save the men from witnessing that blistering hotness?

Once, when my Young Women president gave a talk about the importance of modesty but ended with 'it's always MORE attractive to leave a little somethin' to the imagination" I raised my hand and asked "what are we trying to get the boys to imagine?" The look she gave me... But you'll see that logic a lot: it's sexier not to look too sexy, so don't look too sexy, because you'll look even sexier! Forkably virtuous!

I'm guessing Mr. Short-Shorts is LDS, judging by the mention of Utah, the weekly family night, possible garment neckline peeping out, and his daughter's "great worth." So it's wryly amusing that he broke the modesty commandments himself (including possible removal of sacred undergarments) and became FAMOUS for it to make a point.

When I left the church, getting to wear whatever the hell I wanted was amaaaaazing. Years later, the thrill hasn't worn off.
Yup, they are LDS. Thanks for summarizing the fundamental illogicality of the whole "fuckably virtuous" thing so succinctly! I"m glad you got away from that nonsense, and hope this guy's daughters turn out to be as lucky!

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 1:00 pm 
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Prompted by the worst sexy costume thread I was looking to see if there were any Miley Cyrus costumes and came across this.

http://m.nydailynews.com/1.1458812

The fact they hold such a survey is just so vile.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 3:34 pm 
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So, do you think there is never a time when it is okay to tell a woman what to wear? For example, going to Granny's house, who would be uncomfortable seeing her granddaughter's buttcheeks hanging out. Is it wrong to tell your daughter that no, she needs to wear something more modest so as not to make anyone uncomfortable? Just as the granddaughter has a right to wear what she wants, i think Granny has a right to dictate that some clothing makes her uncomfortable.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 3:43 pm 
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I don't think that's a "tell a woman what to wear" occasion so much as a "raise your children to have basic manners, which includes taking into account how your actions make other people feel, and respect for other people so that they will make appropriate choices on their own of what to wear to Granny's house without you having to humiliate or shame them into it." I went through a period of very short skirts and midriff tops when I was a teenager in the 80s, but my mom never made a big deal out of it so it never became a tool to rebel against her with. Because she showed me that respect it was easy for me to show her the respect of dressing a bit more demurely when the occasion called for it.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 7:13 pm 
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monkeytoes wrote:
I don't think that's a "tell a woman what to wear" occasion so much as a "raise your children to have basic manners, which includes taking into account how your actions make other people feel, and respect for other people so that they will make appropriate choices on their own of what to wear to Granny's house without you having to humiliate or shame them into it." I went through a period of very short skirts and midriff tops when I was a teenager in the 80s, but my mom never made a big deal out of it so it never became a tool to rebel against her with. Because she showed me that respect it was easy for me to show her the respect of dressing a bit more demurely when the occasion called for it.
Exactly.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 7:57 pm 
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annabazoo wrote:
So, do you think there is never a time when it is okay to tell a woman what to wear?


As the mom of a girl I will say no. Right now she is a little girl, so I can influence what she wears. As she gets older, we can have conversations about what is appropriate for different contexts. You can have that conversation without involving shame or humiliation. By the time my daughter is old enough that the word "woman" will be appropriately applied to her, I have either done my job or I haven't. By then, nope, she gets to dress herself.


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 9:28 pm 
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DEG wrote:
annabazoo wrote:
So, do you think there is never a time when it is okay to tell a woman what to wear?


As the mom of a girl I will say no. Right now she is a little girl, so I can influence what she wears. As she gets older, we can have conversations about what is appropriate for different contexts. You can have that conversation without involving shame or humiliation. By the time my daughter is old enough that the word "woman" will be appropriately applied to her, I have either done my job or I haven't. By then, nope, she gets to dress herself.


I agree, I think a lot of the girl body policing is having to do with the person looking being uncomfortable. I have no doubt that it makes Mrs. Hall uncomfortable looking at scantily clad 14 year olds. I know it doesn't make me feel totally great. But I don't think it's the obligation of the lookee to change for the looker, me being weirded out by it is an issue for me to get over. I mean as long as its not some sexual harassment flashing thing going on.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 8:52 am 
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Fee wrote:
DEG wrote:
annabazoo wrote:
So, do you think there is never a time when it is okay to tell a woman what to wear?


As the mom of a girl I will say no. Right now she is a little girl, so I can influence what she wears. As she gets older, we can have conversations about what is appropriate for different contexts. You can have that conversation without involving shame or humiliation. By the time my daughter is old enough that the word "woman" will be appropriately applied to her, I have either done my job or I haven't. By then, nope, she gets to dress herself.


I agree, I think a lot of the girl body policing is having to do with the person looking being uncomfortable. I have no doubt that it makes Mrs. Hall uncomfortable looking at scantily clad 14 year olds. I know it doesn't make me feel totally great. But I don't think it's the obligation of the lookee to change for the looker, me being weirded out by it is an issue for me to get over. I mean as long as its not some sexual harassment flashing thing going on.
This.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 12:19 am 
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DrakeRedcrest wrote:
Women in burqas! SUCH A THREAT!

Suicide bomber maybe.

Someone is also posting how "amaaaaazing" it is to wear what they want. Anyone here want to wear a burqa? I doubt every woman who does wants to.


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 1:01 am 
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What. Are you making a racist joke, or are you being plain racist?


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 5:21 am 
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