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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 2:26 pm 
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Desdemona, you rock. I am sitting here applauding your replies to the "Mom/Mom 2016" ticket. You're so good at articulating the rational, sane point of view. I must be because you're a mom.
This made me laugh so much I accidentally had another kid!

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 6:20 pm 
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Erika Soyf*cker wrote:
torque wrote:
Erika Soyf*cker wrote:
'barbaric,' 'medieval,' ..........<snip> But it really bothers me that this new procedure, which is a inexpensive, non-invasive alternative to women who don't/can't do tubal ligation, IUDs, hormones, or other types of birth control, is being demonized as a medieval 'torture device'* .

sounds like SOMEBODY has a hard time with the fact that some women might choose not to Fully Embrace their Womanhood and have a quiverful.


No, these are Jezebel commenters! I think they immediately assumed that some evil ManDoctor has mansplained the Essure onto some poor unsuspecting woman. Instead of just, you know, a decade-old medical procedure proving unsuitable for a select handful of individuals. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

Jezebel commenters aren't exactly known for their scientific literacy. Though they tend to do better than the writers. I read that article yesterday and it just horrified me. I also think there is still a sort of instinctive distrust of long-term/permanent birth control options that are inserted stemming from, I can only guess, the Dalkon shield disaster. I still find a lot of women--especially those older than me but younger than my mother--are wary or downright afraid of IUDs, though they may not actually know the Dalkon shield by name, they grew up with whisperings of deadly IUDs.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 2:21 am 
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Ariann wrote:
aelle wrote:
That's interesting, I feel the opposite. For me, it took such a long time to acknowledge that there had indeed been a crime, with a criminal and a victim, regardless of my feelings on the facts. And acknowledging it was such an important step to move on. Calling myself a rape victim, especially the legal implications of the word, is empowering to me.


Yeah, I have yet to feel even a little bit empowered by the term "survivor," after being told about a hundred times that I'm supposed to be empowered by it. I do not appreciate having the term applied to me. I sorta/kinda get the logic of it, but I was a victim and now I am someone who was a victim in the past, that's all - the victim of a crime like anybody else might be a victim of a crime (are people "survivors" of muggings? or fraud? or employment discrimination?). Having been a victim does not mean that victimhood is my identity.

It's feels totally worse to be called a survivor - it means the fact of having lived through something is now supposed to be an essential component of my identity. But in my life, it is compartmentalized, it is a data point, not an identity - what someone else did to me is not who *I am* and whether you call me survivor or permanent victim, you are saying that they had the power to change my identity, which they absolutely did not. And I don't wear it as a badge of courage to have "survived" sexual crimes. There's nothing special about that, it says nothing about my innate qualities. I do not walk around thinking of myself as a victim, as someone who is likely to be re-victimized, etc. It has discrete moments of importance, in the same way that having my car burglarized in the past has discrete moments of importance - the decision to lock the car door or not, where I park on a street, etc.


Yeah, when I was first coming to terms with what happened to me, I embraced the term "survivor", but now I'm not that into it for myself. Using that term makes me feel like I survived something, as in that it could have killed me, and while it was horrible to experience sexual violence, it was never the kind of situation where my survival was at stake. And it's been important to my healing process to acknowledge that while what happened to me was terrible and should not have happened, it wasn't The Worst Thing In The Whole World To Ever Happen, it was just...it was bad, it's over, I don't have to keep "surviving" it.

But, since I do work with people who have experienced sexual violence in certain contexts, using the term "survivor" identifies me as someone who's familiar with how to talk to people about their experiences with sexual violence, in addition to identifying me as someone who has been through that experience, so even though it's not the term I personally prefer, I'm okay with using it if it's helpful to other people to have me use it...if that makes any sense.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 2:41 am 
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Challenging my feminism today: I clicked a link to a Youtube video of a totally badass singer/guitarist. She has a channel with many videos on it. She has an amazing voice. She's a spectacular guitarist. She's just really forking good! She also happens to film most of her videos wearing a low-cut tank top. Whatever, she should be free to wear whatever the hell she wants, right? Yeah, every single video she posts has literally hundreds of comments that say insightful things like "nice boobies" and "TIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIITTTTTTTTTTTT­SSSSSSSSS" and "you're the breast ever!" Every single video. Hundreds of comments like this. Hundreds of human beings out there thought that that was what they should do in response to her videos.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 3:52 am 
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choirqueer, that's so awful. Such an insult.


I was checking YouTube for clips of a famous female singer, and one of the top results was a video in which her voice had been lowered until it sounded like a man's. It was still her song, her artistic choices, her playing... But so many commenters said they preferred it with a 'man' singing, because they just prefer men's voices. Maybe this was just bad timing, but it really got me down.


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 9:10 am 
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There is a commercial on hulu that is challenging my feminism. From TrueCar.com. It is a commercial of all women talking about how this website helped them pick the right car and gave them the info to take to the dealer so they wouldn't get taken advantage of. It was bad enough. Until the end when one of the women says "I don't need a dude to help me buy a car"

Ugh to the no. A car dealerships one goal is to make money. Period. Male or female or anywhere on the spectrum of gender, if you are more gullible they will try to take advantage.

And playing into the stereotypes that 1) a girl knows nothing about cars and 2) only a dude can help makes me want to hurl.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 11:24 am 
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kfad wrote:
There is a commercial on hulu that is challenging my feminism. From TrueCar.com. It is a commercial of all women talking about how this website helped them pick the right car and gave them the info to take to the dealer so they wouldn't get taken advantage of. It was bad enough. Until the end when one of the women says "I don't need a dude to help me buy a car"

Ugh to the no. A car dealerships one goal is to make money. Period. Male or female or anywhere on the spectrum of gender, if you are more gullible they will try to take advantage.

And playing into the stereotypes that 1) a girl knows nothing about cars and 2) only a dude can help makes me want to hurl.


I haven't seen the commercial, but there's quite a bit of evidence out there that auto dealerships target women in particular when trying to make a sale. It's a heavily male-dominated industry. This article talks about the issue, and toward the bottom there's a breakdown of some of the language used to describe women customers: http://articles.latimes.com/1989-03-01/ ... car-buyers.

My dad is a mechanic, and he endeavored to teach me enough about automobiles to be able to make an informed purchase on my own. The first time I went car shopping alone I encountered second-guessing of my knowledge and outright bullying at every dealership I checked out. I returned to a couple of the same places with a male friend (who knows nothing about cars), and several representatives congratulated me on bringing along someone who could help me make a decision (I ended up buying through a private seller and will never go to a dealership again).


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 11:30 am 
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Saw a photo today with a picture of a girl sitting sexily on a bed, with the caption "Men who say women belong in the kitchen obviously don't know what to do with them in the bedroom." Ugh. Seriously? It really peas me off when i see stuff like this, in which someone is trying to not be sexist (by saying women don't belong in the kitchen) without realizing that they're being even more sexist. And everyone thinks it's funny.

Sometimes i feel like i'm ruined. Too many of the people i hang out with laugh at sexist jokes all the time, and i just feel like a big ol grump. And then i try to explain why it's not funny, and everyone tells me i'm being too serious and can't take a joke. So mostly i just keep my mouth shut.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 11:37 am 
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chop_socky wrote:
kfad wrote:
There is a commercial on hulu that is challenging my feminism. From TrueCar.com. It is a commercial of all women talking about how this website helped them pick the right car and gave them the info to take to the dealer so they wouldn't get taken advantage of. It was bad enough. Until the end when one of the women says "I don't need a dude to help me buy a car"

Ugh to the no. A car dealerships one goal is to make money. Period. Male or female or anywhere on the spectrum of gender, if you are more gullible they will try to take advantage.

And playing into the stereotypes that 1) a girl knows nothing about cars and 2) only a dude can help makes me want to hurl.


I haven't seen the commercial, but there's quite a bit of evidence out there that auto dealerships target women in particular when trying to make a sale. It's a heavily male-dominated industry. This article talks about the issue, and toward the bottom there's a breakdown of some of the language used to describe women customers: http://articles.latimes.com/1989-03-01/ ... car-buyers.

My dad is a mechanic, and he endeavored to teach me enough about automobiles to be able to make an informed purchase on my own. The first time I went car shopping alone I encountered second-guessing of my knowledge and outright bullying at every dealership I checked out. I returned to a couple of the same places with a male friend (who knows nothing about cars), and several representatives congratulated me on bringing along someone who could help me make a decision (I ended up buying through a private seller and will never go to a dealership again).


Yep. When I bought my car, I took my boyfriend with me because he knows more about the process than I do. I did all my research on what I wanted and did the loan stuff and all that first. On my own. But every single place we went, the salesmen only talked to him, even after he told them the car was for me. It's kind of just a sad fact that these places are totally discriminatory towards women.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 11:55 am 
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In my experience,though, car dealerships target whomever they see as weak. They went hard and dirty after my son.
Regardless of the why or why fores, it is fighting sexism with even more sexism and both are wrong.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 1:57 pm 
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yes, they seem to also skewer the gays, the immigrants, and whoever else they think they can get away with (mechanics too).

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 2:01 pm 
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I've heard from car salesman (family member) that they absolutely do not want to be bested by a woman in negotiations. It's a pride thing, and their coworkers will make fun of them if a woman gets too good of a deal.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 2:46 pm 
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Today I'm challenging my own feminism. I just found out I was selected out of a decently sized pool of applicants to interview at a major energy company. Now I'm trying to come up with reasons why they would possibly be interested in me, and the main reason my brain keeps repeating is because I'm probably the only woman who applied (it's for an R&D position and the field is majorly male-dominated...like 80-90% male). There are loads of other reasons, like my application was good, I met the recruiter and made a positive impression, I'm graduating sooner than other applicants, etc. etc. I wish I wasn't so quick to discount myself but it's kind of ingrained and super hard to overcome.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 9:29 pm 
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choirqueer wrote:
Ariann wrote:
aelle wrote:
That's interesting, I feel the opposite. For me, it took such a long time to acknowledge that there had indeed been a crime, with a criminal and a victim, regardless of my feelings on the facts. And acknowledging it was such an important step to move on. Calling myself a rape victim, especially the legal implications of the word, is empowering to me.


Yeah, I have yet to feel even a little bit empowered by the term "survivor," after being told about a hundred times that I'm supposed to be empowered by it. I do not appreciate having the term applied to me. I sorta/kinda get the logic of it, but I was a victim and now I am someone who was a victim in the past, that's all - the victim of a crime like anybody else might be a victim of a crime (are people "survivors" of muggings? or fraud? or employment discrimination?). Having been a victim does not mean that victimhood is my identity.

It's feels totally worse to be called a survivor - it means the fact of having lived through something is now supposed to be an essential component of my identity. But in my life, it is compartmentalized, it is a data point, not an identity - what someone else did to me is not who *I am* and whether you call me survivor or permanent victim, you are saying that they had the power to change my identity, which they absolutely did not. And I don't wear it as a badge of courage to have "survived" sexual crimes. There's nothing special about that, it says nothing about my innate qualities. I do not walk around thinking of myself as a victim, as someone who is likely to be re-victimized, etc. It has discrete moments of importance, in the same way that having my car burglarized in the past has discrete moments of importance - the decision to lock the car door or not, where I park on a street, etc.


Yeah, when I was first coming to terms with what happened to me, I embraced the term "survivor", but now I'm not that into it for myself. Using that term makes me feel like I survived something, as in that it could have killed me, and while it was horrible to experience sexual violence, it was never the kind of situation where my survival was at stake. And it's been important to my healing process to acknowledge that while what happened to me was terrible and should not have happened, it wasn't The Worst Thing In The Whole World To Ever Happen, it was just...it was bad, it's over, I don't have to keep "surviving" it.

But, since I do work with people who have experienced sexual violence in certain contexts, using the term "survivor" identifies me as someone who's familiar with how to talk to people about their experiences with sexual violence, in addition to identifying me as someone who has been through that experience, so even though it's not the term I personally prefer, I'm okay with using it if it's helpful to other people to have me use it...if that makes any sense.


Yes, that makes sense to me and the bit about it not being the worst thing in the world also resonates.


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 4:21 am 
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Being made to feel like I'm the problem and having someone I thought was my friend suggest that I made up my own experiences of sexual harassment, just because I said to him that a poster in his flat's bathroom made me feel uncomfortable, which said:

Quote:
In here, sexual assault is not reported, instead it is "graded"

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 7:13 am 
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Wow, Imogen. That's a horrid poster. No wonder you would feel uncomfortable!!

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 9:45 am 
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Imogen wrote:
Being made to feel like I'm the problem and having someone I thought was my friend suggest that I made up my own experiences of sexual harassment, just because I said to him that a poster in his flat's bathroom made me feel uncomfortable, which said:

Quote:
In here, sexual assault is not reported, instead it is "graded"

Holy fork. If I saw that poster I don't think there would even be a conversation--I would be out the door so fast. What a forking crasshole.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 10:11 am 
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Yes, me too. Someone with a poster like that is not someone I'd care to be friends with.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 12:13 pm 
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Imogen wrote:
Being made to feel like I'm the problem and having someone I thought was my friend suggest that I made up my own experiences of sexual harassment, just because I said to him that a poster in his flat's bathroom made me feel uncomfortable, which said:

Quote:
In here, sexual assault is not reported, instead it is "graded"

Oh my god. I VERY strongly suggest that you cut ties with this person and stay the hell away from him. Everything about this is sending up tons of red flags.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 6:56 am 
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Thanks for the supportive words, everyone. I've made it clear that I no longer want to see or hear from him. I'm still feeling a bit shiitake about it as he's one of my oldest friends, but after this weekend I feel as though my eyes have been opened to the person he's become since I first met him. The string of manipulative and abusive text messages I've received from him since I left his flat have really confirmed that I made the right decision!

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 1:31 pm 
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Imogen wrote:
Thanks for the supportive words, everyone. I've made it clear that I no longer want to see or hear from him. I'm still feeling a bit shiitake about it as he's one of my oldest friends, but after this weekend I feel as though my eyes have been opened to the person he's become since I first met him. The string of manipulative and abusive text messages I've received from him since I left his flat have really confirmed that I made the right decision!

whoa, is that the guy you were originally going to stay with Saturday night? that's pretty scary.


Rebekah wrote:
I was checking YouTube for clips of a famous female singer, and one of the top results was a video in which her voice had been lowered until it sounded like a man's. It was still her song, her artistic choices, her playing... But so many commenters said they preferred it with a 'man' singing, because they just prefer men's voices. Maybe this was just bad timing, but it really got me down.

are you by any chance talking about the slowed-down version of Dolly Parton's "Jolene"?

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 3:36 pm 
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EmperorTomatoKetchup wrote:
Imogen wrote:
Thanks for the supportive words, everyone. I've made it clear that I no longer want to see or hear from him. I'm still feeling a bit shiitake about it as he's one of my oldest friends, but after this weekend I feel as though my eyes have been opened to the person he's become since I first met him. The string of manipulative and abusive text messages I've received from him since I left his flat have really confirmed that I made the right decision!

whoa, is that the guy you were originally going to stay with Saturday night? that's pretty scary.


Yes and yes. Really forking scary! It was very lucky that I had backup options I could go to, really.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 3:49 pm 
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EmperorTomatoKetchup wrote:
Imogen wrote:
Thanks for the supportive words, everyone. I've made it clear that I no longer want to see or hear from him. I'm still feeling a bit shiitake about it as he's one of my oldest friends, but after this weekend I feel as though my eyes have been opened to the person he's become since I first met him. The string of manipulative and abusive text messages I've received from him since I left his flat have really confirmed that I made the right decision!

whoa, is that the guy you were originally going to stay with Saturday night? that's pretty scary.


Rebekah wrote:
I was checking YouTube for clips of a famous female singer, and one of the top results was a video in which her voice had been lowered until it sounded like a man's. It was still her song, her artistic choices, her playing... But so many commenters said they preferred it with a 'man' singing, because they just prefer men's voices. Maybe this was just bad timing, but it really got me down.

are you by any chance talking about the slowed-down version of Dolly Parton's "Jolene"?


What does preferring the timbre of male voices have to do with feminism? (I'm really curious how people see this). I love opera, but, in general, I prefer listening to baritones if I am listening only to arias. I like female voices too, but as much as I adore Callas and Netrebko, deeper male voices are usually more soothing to me. This has always seemed pretty typical among opera fans as far as I can tell; most have their favorite artists but generally one voice type that just "does it" above all the rest.

Oddly, many of my favorite singers/artists are female, but my most favorite voices are male.

Parrots are like this too! The cockatiel adores higher female voices and always chatters back. Molly (the flirt!) goes gaga for any and all male voices. She isn't as likely to respond to female voices she doesn't know. The macaw is ok with lighter male voices, but deeper ones scare the crepe out of him because of his prior abuse.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 4:35 pm 
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lavawitch wrote:
EmperorTomatoKetchup wrote:
Imogen wrote:
Thanks for the supportive words, everyone. I've made it clear that I no longer want to see or hear from him. I'm still feeling a bit shiitake about it as he's one of my oldest friends, but after this weekend I feel as though my eyes have been opened to the person he's become since I first met him. The string of manipulative and abusive text messages I've received from him since I left his flat have really confirmed that I made the right decision!

whoa, is that the guy you were originally going to stay with Saturday night? that's pretty scary.


Rebekah wrote:
I was checking YouTube for clips of a famous female singer, and one of the top results was a video in which her voice had been lowered until it sounded like a man's. It was still her song, her artistic choices, her playing... But so many commenters said they preferred it with a 'man' singing, because they just prefer men's voices. Maybe this was just bad timing, but it really got me down.

are you by any chance talking about the slowed-down version of Dolly Parton's "Jolene"?


What does preferring the timbre of male voices have to do with feminism? (I'm really curious how people see this). I love opera, but, in general, I prefer listening to baritones if I am listening only to arias. I like female voices too, but as much as I adore Callas and Netrebko, deeper male voices are usually more soothing to me. This has always seemed pretty typical among opera fans as far as I can tell; most have their favorite artists but generally one voice type that just "does it" above all the rest.

Oddly, many of my favorite singers/artists are female, but my most favorite voices are male.

Parrots are like this too! The cockatiel adores higher female voices and always chatters back. Molly (the flirt!) goes gaga for any and all male voices. She isn't as likely to respond to female voices she doesn't know. The macaw is ok with lighter male voices, but deeper ones scare the crepe out of him because of his prior abuse.

Women's voices are often characterized as "grating", "shrill" or "unpleasant" and women are often taken less seriously because we (generally) have higher voices. I have heard from (male) students that they don't learn as well from women because their voices carry less authority. Is that because there is something inherently inferior about women's voices? Or is it because women's voices (and experiences) are less valued and less often heard?

I think it's pretty important to interrogate aesthetic preferences when they are inline with the patriarchal project, especially when in ways that aren't immediately evident.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 5:08 pm 
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Mispronounces Daiya
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Location: Berlin
They did a big survey in Germany and 2/3 of men think that there's enough equality for women and 1/4 think there's been "too much".

My God. And my boyfriend never GETS it. He doesn't get why so many men make me feel uncomfortable and trigger me. When I know my chances of them being sexist arseholes are at least 1:1

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