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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 5:19 pm 
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I know exactly what you mean about the authority/taking seriously issue.

I guess i've never thought about it in terms of music because, for me, anyway it's more about the emotional reaction to a voice and nothing to do with one being better than the other or more valid artistically. Perhaps my being an opera fan skews that a bit since its often been the female voice (specifically the soprano) that has been the most adulated. As celebrated as Domingo, Pavarotti etc are, they never have quite the "cult" that Callas and other top sopranos enjoyed.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 10:57 am 
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I for one would like to hear Dolly do a slow version of "Jolene." I prefer her voice, but slowed down it's such a mournful and beautiful song.

I think J-Dub raises excellent questions. It's also interesting in how a woman speaking with a firm voice is told to 'calm down.'

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 11:53 am 
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j-dub wrote:
Women's voices are often characterized as "grating", "shrill" or "unpleasant" and women are often taken less seriously because we (generally) have higher voices. I have heard from (male) students that they don't learn as well from women because their voices carry less authority. Is that because there is something inherently inferior about women's voices? Or is it because women's voices (and experiences) are less valued and less often heard?

I think it's pretty important to interrogate aesthetic preferences when they are inline with the patriarchal project, especially when in ways that aren't immediately evident.


It's not just voices. It's how we look too. There have been many, many studies of women in academia. Women are denied tenure more frequently and given fewer promotions. The consensus: when a man walks in to a classroom, he is presumed to have authority. When a woman walks into a classroom, she has work very very hard just to prove her basic competence, let alone authority. And she is judged along the way about her perceived warmth and and friendliness. Women who present as "butch" vs. "femme" are judged differently, and as the recent Harvard Business School experiment shows, at a very basic level, women are still judged first and foremost on their perceived f*ckability.

There's a recent fantastic book that speaks in part to this called "Presumed Incompetent: The Intersections of Race and Class for Women in Academia."

The NYTimes covered the experiment to try to ameliorate the gender unbalance at HBS: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/08/educa ... d=all&_r=0

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 2:16 pm 
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j-dub wrote:
Women's voices are often characterized as "grating", "shrill" or "unpleasant" and women are often taken less seriously because we (generally) have higher voices. I have heard from (male) students that they don't learn as well from women because their voices carry less authority. Is that because there is something inherently inferior about women's voices? Or is it because women's voices (and experiences) are less valued and less often heard?

I think it's pretty important to interrogate aesthetic preferences when they are inline with the patriarchal project, especially when in ways that aren't immediately evident.

i think that's only half the story. i know quite a few men who have a strong preference for female vocalists (one of whom has said something along the lines of women being inherently better at singing than men), which in my mind mirrors the patriarchal notion of women existing to be aesthetically pleasing decoration.
also i would argue that perceived authority doesn't necessarily factor into preferring male to female vocals in music. sometimes it's more about the sound of the voice than how powerful the listener thinks the singer makes the lyrics seem.

somewhat relevant: on the NYC subway, the "next stop" recorded announcements are a female voice, but the announcements that essentially give orders to the passengers (e.g. "stand clear of closing doors" and "if you see something, say something") are done in a male voice.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 9:50 am 
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I know this is kind of stupid in comparison to a lot in this thread but this event really bothered me. I was walking with a co-worker near the cosmetics section of the store. He works in cosmetics regularly and I work on the completely other side of the store in the electronics department. As we were walking by, this man tries to stop me and ask me for help and I tell him that my co-worker can help him. He refuses to even look at my co-worker and says, "No, I need *your* help." And I say, "My co-worker can help you, he works down here." Then he says, "No, it's really more of a lady question." And I again tell him my co-worker can help him because I don't know the cosmetics area at all and don't really wear much makeup (not to mention I don't wear and am not familiar with the kind we sell- tested/containing animals). It really bothered me that he wouldn't even look at my co-worker and refused his help many times even though my co-worker WORKS IN COSMETICS but because I'm a woman, I automatically know more about makeup than a man who works in cosmetics.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 2:00 pm 
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I think it's still important to note, Mr. Shankly, because it shows how pervasive it is an ingrained in the culture.

Now if you really want to get steamed, I suggest this: https://www.facebook.com/romeorosephoto ... 0356547291

I have only read what was quoted on GOMI, but what a turd.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 2:56 pm 
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ndpittman wrote:
I think it's still important to note, Mr. Shankly, because it shows how pervasive it is an ingrained in the culture.

Now if you really want to get steamed, I suggest this: https://www.facebook.com/romeorosephoto ... 0356547291

I have only read what was quoted on GOMI, but what a turd.


Wha...? I feel like my IQ dropped 10 points reading that.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 4:47 pm 
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Oh jeez. I managed about 5 sentences. And then for some reason, I scrolled down to the comments. Why did I do that?!


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 9:05 pm 
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ndpittman wrote:
I for one would like to hear Dolly do a slow version of "Jolene." I prefer her voice, but slowed down it's such a mournful and beautiful song.

I think J-Dub raises excellent questions. It's also interesting in how a woman speaking with a firm voice is told to 'calm down.'



Agreed on all counts. The first version I heard of the song was the White Stripes cover (which I think is one of the best things they ever did) and when I heard the Parton version it sounded way, way too fast to me!


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 9:45 pm 
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Since we are talking about Dolly, I feel obliged to plug her duet with Boy George, Your Kisses Are Charity. Best song ever. It's one of those combinations of performers that you would just never really think of, but when you hear it, it's just so perfect, it seems like it should have been obvious.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 10:25 pm 
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Boy George has a great choice.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 12:11 am 
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He has a new album out soon! I'm excited. /threadjack

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 6:53 am 
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lobsteriffic wrote:
ndpittman wrote:
I think it's still important to note, Mr. Shankly, because it shows how pervasive it is an ingrained in the culture.

Now if you really want to get steamed, I suggest this: https://www.facebook.com/romeorosephoto ... 0356547291

I have only read what was quoted on GOMI, but what a turd.


Wha...? I feel like my IQ dropped 10 points reading that.
Snarf wrote:
Oh jeez. I managed about 5 sentences. And then for some reason, I scrolled down to the comments. Why did I do that?!
Yeah, NO. Stuff like this always leaves me torn between thinking it's better (if unbelievably disturbing and upsetting) to know that such...er, "people" exist and wanting to jump off planet Earth and take my chances in outer space. GAAAH.

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 8:47 am 
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blondiefk wrote:
Boy George has a great choice.


I meant voice. Damn you autocorrect!

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2013 6:45 pm 
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All the victim-blaming in the news. Especially:

1. Hannah Anderson: She is 15, and yet there are so many commentators saying that she must have brought her kidnapping and the murders of her mother and brother on herself. I am kind of flabbergasted by the number of women blaming her as well.

2. The murder of Adrian Peterson's son: All the sympathy seems to be for Adrian Peterson (who did not live with or have a major relationship with the little boy), while so many people blame the boy's mother for dating and bringing the man into their lives. I don't think most of us have the resources to do a full background check on everyone we date, or leave our children with. Until there is any evidence that she did something wrong, it would be great if people wouldn't blame her.

I just feel like women are constantly being blamed for the stuff that happens to them, no matter how unforeseeable it might have been.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2013 9:06 pm 
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I'm pretty sure that I had the same complaint this time last year but the commentators at the Ironman world championships are challenging my feminism. "Blah blah nice shot of the second place girl blah blah..." Yo, you are talking about a 35 year old world class professional athlete. If she wants to refer to herself as a girl that is her business but, dudes, fork you. You would never refer to the male athletes as boys; show these women the respect they have earned.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2013 9:34 pm 
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monkeytoes wrote:
I'm pretty sure that I had the same complaint this time last year but the commentators at the Ironman world championships are challenging my feminism. "Blah blah nice shot of the second place girl blah blah..." Yo, you are talking about a 35 year old world class professional athlete. If she wants to refer to herself as a girl that is her business but, dudes, fork you. You would never refer to the male athletes as boys; show these women the respect they have earned.

Did you ever see the photo series in which male olympians had photos edited to look like the photos the AP etc took of the female volleyball players? It was all asparagi and crotches.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 8:46 am 
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A friend of mine was saying that she can't watch Louis CK after the date rape episode last year, because she thought it was too triggering and not respectfully done (because of the last sentence I think).

I thought that the piece was pretty good - there is NSFW language but no nudity - but it did a good job showing the pressure people can put on others to get what they want.

Trigger warning: http://emilylhauserinmyhead.wordpress.c ... one-scene/

Anyone have any thoughts to help me understand? I have a lot of confused thoughts....

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 6:53 pm 
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Trigger warning.

Spoiler: show
17 year old gets 14 year old minor girl drunk, videotapes himself and a friend raping her and another 13 year old minor girl. The boys dump her unconscious and nearly naked in 30F weather in front of her home, where she spends 3 hours before coming to. There is lots of physical evidence and sheriff gets confessions and arrests the boys. But then the prosecutor drops all charges, blaming the family for posting about it on social media. Of course the decision to prosecute has nothing to do with the fact that one of the boys is the grandson of a state representative.

The alleged rapists are having a great time at college, while one of the victim's family was run out of town, and she is struggling with suicide attempts.

Quote:
In a case that resembles several other high-profile sexual assault charges across the U.S., a 17-year-old Maryville High School senior, Matthew Barnett, was arrested for sexually assaulting Daisy Coleman, then leaving her propped up beside her family’s home. Another Maryville High senior, Jordan Zech, 17, was also charged in the case, accused of felony sexual exploitation of a minor because he videotaped Barnett and Daisy Coleman on an iPhone.

But the difference between this case and others – in particular the Steubenville, Ohio, case in which two high school football players were convicted of raping and videotaping an incapacitated 16-year-old girl – Barnett and Zech are free today. In a move that shocked the town, Robert Rice, the Nodaway County prosecutor, dropped all charges two months after the alleged assault.


http://kcur.org/post/why-was-maryville- ... se-dropped


I often think about j-dub's comment (apologies if I am misquoting) that rape breaks people. I want to believe that it doesn't, that we get through and its all okay, but sometimes I think that it really can. I find it so heartbreaking that the young men involved have had no consequences from this, but that the girls are still struggling as a result.

Quote:
The boys have graduated. The girls are in schools in another town now and aren’t friends anymore.

Daisy Coleman, now 16, has had a particularly tough time. The girl who used to be an athlete and dancer, who won local beauty pageants, is now cutting herself. And there have been several suicide attempts.

...

And the mom misses the two girls she knew before that January night in 2012.

“They were sparkly. They just lit up a room wherever they went, so much fun. And you know, neither one of them has that anymore,” the mom said. “She was either going to be a vet or a doctor and now she wants to be a baby-sitter. She went from straight A's, to kind of mediocre. From being a cheerleader to not wanting to do anything. It just took away her entire teenage years. “


Oh and the rapists' families want an apology from the family of the rape victim, after they drove her family from the town. And mysteriously, the victim's house was burned down. http://www.kansascity.com/2013/10/12/45 ... exual.html

http://gawker.com/family-gets-driven-ou ... socialflow

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 1:43 pm 
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This whole Danielle Lee Scientific American situation challenges my feminism and my anti-racism.

If you haven't heard about it, Danielle Lee, an African-American woman who writes a blog called The Urban Scientist for Scientific American was approached to guest blog for a website called Biology-online. She asked about what would be involved and if she would be financially compensated for her time. After receiving a reply about the conditions including an indication that she would not be paid for her time she politely declined. Her correspondent then asked her if she was "an urban scientist or an urban hors d'oeuvre".

Adding insult to injury, when she blogged about the situation on her Urban Scientist blog, Scientific American deleted the blog, effectively silencing her.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 4:23 am 
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WHAT!

lepelaar, I had no idea. "Thanks" for the info (wish the story had gone a very different way). I don't suppose you know of form letters to Scientific American or Bio-online calling for a reasonable reaction/reinstatement of her blog?

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 5:10 am 
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Oof! I worded that badly. I should have said they deleted the blog post, not the blog!

Anyway, thankfully, a lot of people came out in support of Danielle Lee, including fellow SA bloggers and there was a #standingwithDNLee twitter storm. As of now, the employee at BO who called her a hors d'oeuvre has been fired, SA has issued an apology (which is not without its problems), and as of yesterday, the post is back up on the blog.

All in all the situation was handled really badly. The excuses that SA gave for taking down the post were lame and it was pointed that their initial claim that they only allow posts having to do with "discovering science" seems to apply only to her and not her white colleagues.

Here's hoping that this whole mess leads to constructive dialogue and awareness of how the scientific community can alienate women and POC.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 6:00 am 
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One of those colleagues recently published this, which also challenges my feminism in a way you (lepelaar), molasses jane and I have sometimes discussed: women in academia/research. Kind of the reverse of the Harvard BS piece which was linked to here, http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/con ... and-abuse/

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 6:39 am 
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Are you sure that was me? I don't remember these discussions, but I could also be having a peri-menopausal brain fart.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 7:34 am 
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I could be having a pre-peri-menopausal brain fart. (Was pretty sure it was you, but maybe not.)

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