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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 6:40 pm 
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FootFace wrote:
j-dub wrote:
I'm sure you know the etymology of the "rule of thumb?"


The real one or the one about the size of the stick you could beat your wife with?

Well, it may not be the origin of the phrase, but it seems it's been used enough to qualify as part of the etymology, according to wikipedia:

wikipedia wrote:
Nonetheless, belief in the existence of a "rule of thumb" law to excuse spousal abuse can be traced as far back as 1782, the year that James Gillray published his satirical cartoon Judge Thumb. The cartoon lambastes Sir Francis Buller, a British judge, for allegedly ruling that a man may legally beat his wife, provided that he used a stick no thicker than his thumb, although it is questionable whether Buller ever made such a pronouncement.[11] The Body of Liberties adopted in 1641 by the Massachusetts Bay colonists states, “Every married woman shall be free from bodily correction or stripes by her husband, unless it be in his own defense from her assault.”[12] In the United States, legal decisions in Mississippi (1824) and North Carolina (1868 and 1874) make reference to—and reject—an unnamed "old doctrine" or "ancient law" by which a man was allowed to beat his wife with a stick no wider than his thumb.[7] For example, the 1874 case State v. Oliver (North Carolina Reports, Vol. 70, Sec. 60, p. 44) states: "We assume that the old doctrine that a husband had the right to whip his wife, provided that he used a switch no larger than his thumb, is not the law in North Carolina." In 1976, feminist Del Martin used the phrase "rule of thumb" as a metaphorical reference to describe such a doctrine. She was misinterpreted by many as claiming the doctrine as a direct origin of the phrase and the connection gained currency in 1982, when the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights issued a report on wife abuse, titled "Under the Rule of Thumb".[9][13]

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 6:47 pm 
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j-dub wrote:
I'm sure you know the etymology of the "rule of thumb?"
Actually, that's a myth. but one that has enjoyed a surprising amount of traction!

ETA: Whoops - Footface beat me to it! That was one I spent a lot of time debunking (along with the chastity belt; please don't get me started) when I worked at a museum of medieval/Renaissance arms and armor. The popular meaning has certainly been mapped onto it to such a degree that it's become a sort of back-formation of the expression's real meaning, but it's still essentially an urban legend.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 6:53 pm 
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jordanpattern wrote:
Dr. Apricot wrote:
Let's stop attacking each other! I don't see any minds being changed in the course of this discussion.

Maybe everyone should serve a mandatory 3-month sentence in a public library so we can all learn to be a bit more respectful of each other?

Your librarianist bias is showing.

(KIDDING! OMG DON'T BAN ME)

(Also, not meant to poke fun at any of the points made in this thread. You all have valid points.)

The librarians have noted this comment in your permanent record. Permanent record.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 9:36 pm 
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Yeesh, Vantine. Now I'm scared. I was a Very Bad Girl with overdue books once. (or thrice...) when I would have periods of extreme depression and not leave the house, I would also not leave to return library books. After I had to pay a $360 fine when I was 19, I pretty much gave up libraries. (12 books at $2/day and no maximum is not pretty). At least I always only ever had strange books that nobody else ever wanted to check out. Seriously--I would often choose books by selecting ones with the oldest last due date, so I'd have something like a 400 page history of bells that had previously been checked out 4 years before. My dad always joked that I selected books based on the dust layer.

I'll look for Women Who Kill. It sounds interesting.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 9:03 pm 
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I have to say... I never thought that I would personally see someone arguing for eugenics in terms of welfare recipients. But I did.
She supports the sterilization of women, but not the paying for it either. Which I really can't wrap my head around.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 10:27 pm 
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Mothers who go out of their way to push little boys to only play with little boys, and end up sending the message that girls and boys can't be friends but only romantic partners. I hate it when someone sees two 2 year olds, holding hands and goes on about how they're girlfriend - boyfriend. Its so dumb, and it ends up sending a very powerful message that boys and girls are very different, which is dumb.

A friend of mine has a 7 year old, and she was playing with a neighborhood boy. The boy's mom told my friend that she had asked her son how he liked playing with my friend's little girl, and he said "She is really nice, but I am not ready to be in a relationship." Its so sad that 7 year olds would be thinking that way.

Why can't we all just be friends?

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 10:32 pm 
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Barf.


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 10:36 pm 
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It annoys me SO MUCH! Two of the kiddos that L loves to play with at the organized big playgroup meetups are boys, and their parents will never have us over in smaller, informal groups, because they like their son to play with little boys only. And the mom goes on and on about how rough and tumble her little boy is. As he is running hand in hand with Leela and she is at least as rough and tumble.

It just never ceases to amaze me that women are culture carriers for the patriarchy. We all know the system is shiitake for little girls and women, so why, as a woman, would you teach it to your sons and daughters? Why not encourage your children to be friends regardless of the shape of their genitals? Do they think that being a girl is like cooties and you catch it if you hang out with too many girls?

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 10:48 pm 
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Tofulish wrote:
We all know the system is shiitake for little girls and women, so why, as a woman, would you teach it to your sons and daughters?

THAT is the million dollar question, isn't it. Is it simply peevish "what i had to do, you have to do" bullshiitake? Fear? I wonder about this maintenance of the patriarchy by mothers.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 11:06 pm 
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I think its the fact that the asking any of us about the patriarchy is like asking a fish about water. If you're surrounded by it every day, you may not question it, especially not if your son is getting the benefits. And I expect the idea is that as parents we're supposed to teach our children how to survive in the system we have now, which is rape culture, the patriarchy, racism etc.

Its a hard balancing act - how do you teach your child that she can do anything, be anything, go anywhere, but at the same time teach her how to protect herself in a rape culture world, navigate the patriarchy (esp in a work context where she may not have many allies and will watch men with less experience and ability shoot up the ladder on the presumption of competence). You have to give them hope and prepare them for disappointment. And the same goes for race when you're raising a child of color - you can do anything, go anywhere, be anything - but if you're a young black man in Florida, that doesn't include going to the store after dark to get Skittles.

I think that is why it peas me off so much. And its seen as so innocuous - if I said something to the mothers going on about "oh look they're girlfriend boyfriend" I'd get a response that they're just kidding and its no big deal - just like telling a little girl that she is beautiful isn't a big deal. And they aren't a big deal in isolation, but when your daughter gets multiple messages a day that girls and boys can't be friends and that beauty matters or is one of the first things people notice about her, it becomes a big deal.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 3:33 am 
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This one of the many reasons I could never have children...

In the bookshop when people ask for kid's stuff I get frustrated 9 out of 10 times. Because "hum, this is about a girl, but he's a boy", "does football feature heavily, you know, this is for a girl after all". ARGH ARGH. It's not your boys who can't read these stories, it's you telling them they can't read it!

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 9:56 am 
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My musician friends sometimes challenge my feminism. The music industry is so male dominated that it feels that sometimes the female musicians step on each other in order to get attention, even at the level I'm at. I see them performing songs that are horrible about other women's appearances, calling other women sluts and whores and using marginalized women as subject matter in a demeaning way. I feel sad about it sometimes.


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 10:55 am 
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VeganinBerlin wrote:
This one of the many reasons I could never have children...

In the bookshop when people ask for kid's stuff I get frustrated 9 out of 10 times. Because "hum, this is about a girl, but he's a boy", "does football feature heavily, you know, this is for a girl after all". ARGH ARGH. It's not your boys who can't read these stories, it's you telling them they can't read it!


Yup. I have two friends who are both expecting baby girls about two weeks apart and the difference is like night and day. I love both of them, but I just went to a shower for one that was just like a Care Bear had guzzled two gallons of Pepto Bismol and exploded. Everything was pink pink pink pink pink, Daddy's Girl this and Princess that. Grandma is a breast cancer survivor who has bought into the whole Komen fund pink ribbon bullshiitake, so anything pink that wasn't explicitly baby-themed was boobie-themed and promised "proceeds to fund breast cancer research" and/or "awareness," which I obviously have no problem with if they're actually donating more than 0.00001% of their profits to said research, which they rarely are. The thing that kind of irked me the most was that this is actually her second baby (first was a boy)- so most of the stuff she was being gifted were things she already had, except "boy" themed (I did not buy her a gift because my understanding of modern etiquette is that it's poor form to have more than one baby shower, plus the way the invite was structured made it sound like a gathering to celebrate another baby rather than a shower).

The other friend has resolutely and firmly banned any and all in her life from giving her anything pink. When pushed by her mother and sister to pick a nursery 'theme' so they could busy themselves with something to do, she finally relented with Star Wars. Conversations around gender and feminism and empowerment are the core of anything she talks about when it comes to raising baby.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 11:27 am 
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Star Wars nursery! I love it!


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 11:30 am 
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mandycoot wrote:
Star Wars nursery! I love it!


She had a great maternity shirt the other day that had the Death Star stretched across her belly (she's due in six weeks!) and the words "That's no moon." Naturally the present I got for her husband/daddy-to-be was a copy of Jeffrey Brown's Vader's Little Princess.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 3:49 pm 
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My BIL got that book for V for her birthday! We haven't read it yet, though, she's still a little young and I'm afraid she'll destroy it.. She also has a copy of this ABC book which was super cute but a one-off from the illustrators to raise money for their kid's college fund:

http://www.brandonpeat.com/portfolio/pr ... ckbar.html


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 9:14 pm 
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Cab driver spent the drive home telling me how hot he found 'girls' (I'm 44!) who are 'alternative' like me. It's scary to be trapped in a car with a man hitting on you, especially when your destination is an empty house with no car in the driveway.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 12:16 am 
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I'm incredibly scared of cabs for that reason.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 7:28 am 
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blondiefk wrote:
Cab driver spent the drive home telling me how hot he found 'girls' (I'm 44!) who are 'alternative' like me. It's scary to be trapped in a car with a man hitting on you, especially when your destination is an empty house with no car in the driveway.


That's incredibly creepy, blondiefk. Can you report him to the cab company?

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 8:01 am 
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lepelaar wrote:
blondiefk wrote:
Cab driver spent the drive home telling me how hot he found 'girls' (I'm 44!) who are 'alternative' like me. It's scary to be trapped in a car with a man hitting on you, especially when your destination is an empty house with no car in the driveway.
That's incredibly creepy, blondiefk. Can you report him to the cab company?
That would scare the crepe out of me. On the one hand, I feel like reporting him would be the best thing (you're probably not the first or only woman passenger he's done that, too), but on the other hand I might be paranoid because he knew where I lived and might put it together. Which is crazy that I'm even thinking like that, but it's crazy that stuff like that happens; what is wrong with some people?

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 8:11 am 
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I am so sorry blondiefk! Its really scary!

When I worked at a lawfirm, we had a car service that would take us home. I had a driver who was taking me home at 2 am and was going on and on about how he was going to take me to a hotel and have sex with me. We were driving really fast on Route 3, and I was very uncomfortable with that, but was very jokey about it. When I got home, I felt really conflicted, because I had joked around with him after he wouldn't stop when I first asked him, mostly because I just wanted to distract him and keep it light because I was scared. But ultimately, I called the car service and they told me they would fire him. I don't know if they did or didn't but I am really happy I reported him.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 8:32 am 
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Desdemona wrote:
lepelaar wrote:
blondiefk wrote:
Cab driver spent the drive home telling me how hot he found 'girls' (I'm 44!) who are 'alternative' like me. It's scary to be trapped in a car with a man hitting on you, especially when your destination is an empty house with no car in the driveway.
That's incredibly creepy, blondiefk. Can you report him to the cab company?
That would scare the crepe out of me. On the one hand, I feel like reporting him would be the best thing (you're probably not the first or only woman passenger he's done that, too), but on the other hand I might be paranoid because he knew where I lived and might put it together. Which is crazy that I'm even thinking like that, but it's crazy that stuff like that happens; what is wrong with some people?


This is why I'm conflicted about reporting him. I'm home alone all day and my road is isolated and he knows that. Every time I heard a car after I got home yesterday I'd peek out the window to make sure it wasn't him.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 1:44 pm 
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Girl's Life vs. Boys' Life

(Boys' Life is still around?!)

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 1:47 pm 
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blondiefk wrote:

This is why I'm conflicted about reporting him. I'm home alone all day and my road is isolated and he knows that. Every time I heard a car after I got home yesterday I'd peek out the window to make sure it wasn't him.


ugh, i hate taking cabs by myself for this very reason. I definitely do it when I need to, but the idea of getting into a car with a random stranger and telling them where I live creeps me out a lot. sorry that happened to you! i've never had a creep like that, just angry drivers that are mad they have to take me to queens.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 1:49 pm 
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FootFace wrote:
Girl's Life vs. Boys' Life

(Boys' Life is still around?!)


Oh this is so depressing. The cover stories on the Girl's Life are no different than the Young Miss magazines I read in 1981. Very sad.

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