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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 2:12 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 3:07 pm 
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ugh, a few years ago i picked up the Intrepid Book for Girls or something and didn't realize it was totally different from the Intrepid Book for Boys (which i had seen in the store and for some inexplicable reason didn't bring home for the kid). The boys got to learn about homemade explosives, penknives and lockpicking, and the girls got a chapter about famous princesses and lemonade. BARF.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 4:14 pm 
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I was listening to my neighbor's 14 year old talking loudly to her friends about needing to be careful about being raped, as they ran around trick or treating. She is an entering freshman. One of her friends said "OMG, you are going to get yourself raped!" And she said "OMG I am one of those people who is always thinking of all the possible outcomes, so I am always thinking "OMG I AM GONNA GET RAPED!" at some point in the day."

And then I notice that there are lots of teen boys riding their bikes or goofing around in the evening, when I walk my dog, but no girls.

Its kind of sad that girls are raised in such a sense of insecurity, from so early on. I think one day we'll look back and think its crazy that men were raised to feel so safe and women were made to feel so unsafe, just because of the shape of their respective genitals, just as many of us now think that its crazy that people have to feel unsafe just because of the color of their skins.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 4:31 am 
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Ugh. I'm so sorry that happened blondie. I had to take a couple of very early morning cabs to the airport when I traveled for work, and I had a couple if real creeps. One made mention that my vagina was probably tight because I didn't have kids and my husband probably is happy. I no longer make conversation in cabs.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 8:14 am 
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ndpittman wrote:
Ugh. I'm so sorry that happened blondie. I had to take a couple of very early morning cabs to the airport when I traveled for work, and I had a couple if real creeps. One made mention that my vagina was probably tight because I didn't have kids and my husband probably is happy. I no longer make conversation in cabs.
This...really? I think I'm going to puke. That is outrageously disgusting. Did you report him?

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 7:31 pm 
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Desdemona wrote:
ndpittman wrote:
Ugh. I'm so sorry that happened blondie. I had to take a couple of very early morning cabs to the airport when I traveled for work, and I had a couple if real creeps. One made mention that my vagina was probably tight because I didn't have kids and my husband probably is happy. I no longer make conversation in cabs.
This...really? I think I'm going to puke. That is outrageously disgusting. Did you report him?


Unfortunately, no. It wasn't really aggressive, just really inappropriate, if that makes sense.

ETA: Not to apologize for it; I also didn't even really think of reporting it as an option. I just tried to avoid that situation.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 9:50 pm 
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I went to this talk the other day, a couple hundred people, who work at my college were attending. At one point the speaker asked a question to anyone that identifies as male if in the last two weeks they had done anything, in any small way, to prevent getting sexually assaulted. Not one man raised his hand. Then the same question was asked to the women, every single woman put her hand in the air, and these were mostly middle aged professors. It wasn't exactly suprising but the stark difference between the two groups has definitely made me think a lot about how much our lives are ruled by the fear of violence. It was the first thing I probably ever learned and I don't think I ever realized how men don't even have to concern themselves about it.

And then I couldn't help but that stupid article last week telling women if they don't want to get attacked they shouldn't drink as if every woman on the freaking planet isn't worried, at least a little, about being victimized.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 7:28 am 
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LazySmurf wrote:
I went to this talk the other day, a couple hundred people, who work at my college were attending. At one point the speaker asked a question to anyone that identifies as male if in the last two weeks they had done anything, in any small way, to prevent getting sexually assaulted. Not one man raised his hand. Then the same question was asked to the women, every single woman put her hand in the air, and these were mostly middle aged professors. It wasn't exactly suprising but the stark difference between the two groups has definitely made me think a lot about how much our lives are ruled by the fear of violence. It was the first thing I probably ever learned and I don't think I ever realized how men don't even have to concern themselves about it.

And then I couldn't help but that stupid article last week telling women if they don't want to get attacked they shouldn't drink as if every woman on the freaking planet isn't worried, at least a little, about being victimized.
Yeah, it's so pervasive that we almost stop thinking about it: "everyone" knows that women can't walk anywhere alone at night (or even during the day, depending where they are), go to bars, cafes concerts, etc. by themselves without fear of unwanted attention, or even walk to our own cars after work without having our keys out, our phones at then ready, and our wits about us. We're basically spoonfed this stuff along with our applesauce, and it's not fair, but to an enormous degree, it accepted (albeit regretfully) as "the way things are."

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 8:00 am 
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I was outside a pub with my boyfriend and a friend recently, when this guy comes up and starts making conversation. He started off slightly annoying but innocuous so we just let him talk at us for a while. Then he says he just broke up with his girlfriend and starts spouting off his "chat up lines", the first thing he comes out with is "let's not turn this rape into a murder". What the actual fork?

He was mostly talking to my boyfriend, so I guess he thought they could have some laddish rape banter or something, but before I could even react the boy told him in no uncertain words that it was neither funny nor acceptable. This guy kind of started laughing at first, thinking the bf was doing some sort of mock distain thing. Then, he was like "Oh. You're not joking, are you...?" and slunk away.

It's just.... how would anyone think it's okay to say that? Madness.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 10:33 am 
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Desdemona wrote:
LazySmurf wrote:
I went to this talk the other day, a couple hundred people, who work at my college were attending. At one point the speaker asked a question to anyone that identifies as male if in the last two weeks they had done anything, in any small way, to prevent getting sexually assaulted. Not one man raised his hand. Then the same question was asked to the women, every single woman put her hand in the air, and these were mostly middle aged professors. It wasn't exactly suprising but the stark difference between the two groups has definitely made me think a lot about how much our lives are ruled by the fear of violence. It was the first thing I probably ever learned and I don't think I ever realized how men don't even have to concern themselves about it.

And then I couldn't help but that stupid article last week telling women if they don't want to get attacked they shouldn't drink as if every woman on the freaking planet isn't worried, at least a little, about being victimized.
Yeah, it's so pervasive that we almost stop thinking about it: "everyone" knows that women can't walk anywhere alone at night (or even during the day, depending where they are), go to bars, cafes concerts, etc. by themselves without fear of unwanted attention, or even walk to our own cars after work without having our keys out, our phones at then ready, and our wits about us. We're basically spoonfed this stuff along with our applesauce, and it's not fair, but to an enormous degree, it accepted (albeit regretfully) as "the way things are."

The last time there was an assault at my university, the university sent an email suggesting that people (really women) not walk anywhere alone ever. That's right. It's not safe to be by yourself for a few moments at a busy university during the daytime. They really had to stretch to find a way to blame the assault on that poor woman.


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 1:55 pm 
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So I was told (but in a very quick search was unable to turn up much of anything) that someone was trying to kickstarter a "rape-proof" under garment for women. Seems that the elastic is unbreakable and so on.
I think this is a questionable idea and would really like input. I feel that this keeps blame in the victims court, does nothing to actually change the culture that we live in and relies on a definition of rape that is problematic (i.e. only violent, male on female, etc.)

I also said that I was concerned that this product would be marketed in a questionable way for the wrong reasons.

What is the take of the wise ppkers?

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 1:58 pm 
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I'm having difficulty understanding how it would actually work. Sounds like it'd make going to the loo quite difficult.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 1:58 pm 
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I'd type something, but my jaw is hanging open and drool is making the keypad too slippery.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 2:19 pm 
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lavawitch wrote:
I'd type something, but my jaw is hanging open and drool is making the keypad too slippery.
Yeah, this was pretty much my reaction as well. I'm now imagining conversations like the following.

"Well, ma'am, were you were wearing your special impregnable Fort Knox pantaloons at the time of the alleged assault?"

"No, I was under the impression I could go outside my house without being attacked and violated, regardless of what sort of underwear I had on."

"Then I'm afraid it looks like we'll have to arrest you for providing both the temptation and opportunity for someone to rape you. Please step this way."

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 2:21 pm 
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kfad wrote:
So I was told (but in a very quick search was unable to turn up much of anything) that someone was trying to kickstarter a "rape-proof" under garment for women. Seems that the elastic is unbreakable and so on.
I think this is a questionable idea and would really like input. I feel that this keeps blame in the victims court, does nothing to actually change the culture that we live in and relies on a definition of rape that is problematic (i.e. only violent, male on female, etc.)

I also said that I was concerned that this product would be marketed in a questionable way for the wrong reasons.

What is the take of the wise ppkers?

They already have something similar in south Africa, the Rape axe. You insert the device like a tampon but it has little barbs, then if you are penetrated the barbs attach like tiny teeth to the penis or whatever is body part is inserted. It doesn't exactly prevent rape though, it's more of a punishment it seems.

http://www.antirape.co.za/index.php?opt ... &Itemid=18

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 2:28 pm 
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LazySmurf wrote:
kfad wrote:
So I was told (but in a very quick search was unable to turn up much of anything) that someone was trying to kickstarter a "rape-proof" under garment for women. Seems that the elastic is unbreakable and so on.
I think this is a questionable idea and would really like input. I feel that this keeps blame in the victims court, does nothing to actually change the culture that we live in and relies on a definition of rape that is problematic (i.e. only violent, male on female, etc.)

I also said that I was concerned that this product would be marketed in a questionable way for the wrong reasons.

What is the take of the wise ppkers?

They already have something similar in south Africa, the Rape axe. You insert the device like a tampon but it has little barbs, then if you are penetrated the barbs attach like tiny teeth to the penis or whatever is body part is inserted. It doesn't exactly prevent rape though, it's more of a punishment it seems.

http://www.antirape.co.za/index.php?opt ... &Itemid=18
Because that's not backasswards thinking at all.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 2:32 pm 
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Yesterday we got a campus alert from my university that a student reported consuming a drink that had been provided by a person not known to the student and that sexual assault may have occurred. What gets me is the next paragraph in the email (emphasis mine):
Quote:
Engaging in any type of sexual behavior when the involved persons are unable to knowingly and willingly give consent is not acceptable behavior and could even constitute a crime. Because some persons will take advantage of others, students (and others) are advised not to accept beverages from people who are not known to them and to maintain possession of items which you intend to consume.


Seriously?? Wow, you're really crackin' down there, Stanford.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 5:25 pm 
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kfad wrote:
So I was told (but in a very quick search was unable to turn up much of anything) that someone was trying to kickstarter a "rape-proof" under garment for women. Seems that the elastic is unbreakable and so on.
I think this is a questionable idea and would really like input. I feel that this keeps blame in the victims court, does nothing to actually change the culture that we live in and relies on a definition of rape that is problematic (i.e. only violent, male on female, etc.)

I also said that I was concerned that this product would be marketed in a questionable way for the wrong reasons.

What is the take of the wise ppkers?

Here's a link to the garment: http://nextshark.com/ar-wear-invents-ar ... sist-rape/

I think it's a great idea! It doesn't put blame in the victim's court any more than a lock on my front door places blame on me if someone breaks in and hurts me. The garment would still stay on even if the potential rape would have been non-violent or not male on female.

I mean...I don't think this will ever become widespread enough to put a dent in the number of rapes that happen. It wouldn't help someone who is in a violent relationship, someone who changed their mind after initially giving consent, etc. Still, I don't think it could hurt.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 5:38 pm 
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Well it depends... would someone hold not wearing those type of underwear against them? What if you were wearing those and got raped? Would that be 'proof' that it wasn't rape?

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 5:57 pm 
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I'm reminded of the Italian judge who let a rapist go free because he couldn't possibly have removed her skinny jeans himself...

Since 80% of sexual assaults are committed by someone you know are you supposed to just wear these at all times? Just in case?

I don't think these would have an appreciable effect on sexual assault rates and I don't like the idea that, yet again, women have to gatekeep our bodies against rape. Frankly, I am reminded often enough of being assaulted and of what I do to keep myself as safe as possible, I refuse to put on anti-rape pants every day on top of everything else.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 7:15 pm 
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linanil wrote:
Well it depends... would someone hold not wearing those type of underwear against them? What if you were wearing those and got raped? Would that be 'proof' that it wasn't rape?
This.
j-dub wrote:
I'm reminded of the Italian judge who let a rapist go free because he couldn't possibly have removed her skinny jeans himself...

Since 80% of sexual assaults are committed by someone you know are you supposed to just wear these at all times? Just in case?

I don't think these would have an appreciable effect on sexual assault rates and I don't like the idea that, yet again, women have to gatekeep our bodies against rape. Frankly, I am reminded often enough of being assaulted and of what I do to keep myself as safe as possible, I refuse to put on anti-rape pants every day on top of everything else.
Aaaand holy god, this.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 7:24 pm 
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those underwear are so weird! i mean, if it was a violent situation and the underwear did prevent you from being raped, it seems like that could potentially make an attacker extra angry and cause more violence? i don't know. it perpetuates the idea that it's up to you not to get raped rather than being up to others not to rape.

there was a really creepy guy at work the other day who was in the elevator when i got in (luckily other people were in it, too) who stared at me the whole elevator ride like he was going to either rape or murder me. it's the first time i've felt that unsafe at work. he was a patient, so I have no idea what his mental capacity was like or what any of his issues might have been. ugh. feeling unsafe at work really sucks.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 7:38 pm 
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http://feministing.com/2013/11/04/twelve-questions-about-ar-wares-anti-rape-underwear/

I think they hit the nail on the head for me.
I just can't let slide the fact that these aren't putting responsibility for rape where it belongs.
Even if we leave doors unlocked we are not blamed for being robbed. And we certainly are not dragged through every experience that has any similarity. Our motives are not questioned.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 5:37 am 
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Received this gem from my dad by email this morning. We started by discussing some of the accusations made against Amma & co. in Holy Hell (http://www.amazon.com/Holy-Hell-Memoir- ... =holy+hell), and then he wrote the following. (Immediately following it were a few sentences about the "real" "reason" behind my folks' divorce.)

Quote:
And changing the subject a bit: Women have special power in that regard, they can play the sex game, they do decide what is going on or not (unless they are raped). Intuitively they know that when they use sex, the man will be dependent on them for it, so they use it as a control over him.


...The fork?! I told him that until he is ready to engage with 21st century ideas about sex, I did not want to engage him on this topic, but if any of you have a more witty or educational reply, I'd love to throw it his way.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 8:45 am 
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Quote:
What about all the forms of sexual violence that don’t require removal of underwear?


This was my first question.

My second question is this, it's not possible to force someone to take these pantaloons off? What if you take them off and change your mind?

Quote:
...out on a first date
...or a night of clubbing
...taking an evening run
...traveling in another country or in other potentially risky situations...


So, basically, living your life as an adult is dangerous?

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