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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 1:56 pm 
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Yes, me too.

There have been a lot of really great and thoughtful articles on the subject and a lot of horrendous ones and even more awful internet commentary. I really appreciate Pz Myers' for being able to host an internet discussion that doesn't devolve into hateful name calling - I think he might be the only place on the internet to be able to manage that.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 2:21 pm 
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Okay, the give-flowers guy:

If he were going up to men and women, this would clearly be a sweet thing. Look, he's being friendly and surprising people with a little act of kindness! Who could object?

But by going up to women only—and by using the "you need to smile" line—he's crossed into creep territory. Doesn't he get that at least some of the women he approaches will feel... watched, judged, or put on the spot, like someone's hitting on them?

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 2:43 pm 
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Tofulish wrote:
Yes, me too.

There have been a lot of really great and thoughtful articles on the subject and a lot of horrendous ones and even more awful internet commentary. I really appreciate Pz Myers' for being able to host an internet discussion that doesn't devolve into hateful name calling - I think he might be the only place on the internet to be able to manage that.

PZ Meyers is not really above name calling or being harsh. He's not opposed to being very brutal on twitter.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 3:29 pm 
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Well, my apologies to all the gay male breastfeeding experts reading this whom I'm sure I've offended - like I said, this doctor was a NICU doctor not a OB/GYN, though I'm sure any doctor is capable of recognizing the signs of an infection and prescribing an antibiotic for it, in this particular case it had to do with hospital policy that may have been conducive to good results within the realm of his professional experience - ie, apparent breastfeeding success /while at the hospital/, with no regard for people's experiences once they left that environment, and without the apparent wisdom from experience to know that followup is required to get a better picture.

Anyway, like I said, this was accidentally on the wrong thread in the wrong forum, and at this point probably belongs more in the playground, though it's not something I really care to debate; I'm going to continue to be sexist and heterosexist if you want to call it that, and not go to my childless gay male friends with breastfeeding questions regardless.


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 3:50 pm 
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FootFace wrote:
Okay, the give-flowers guy:

If he were going up to men and women, this would clearly be a sweet thing. Look, he's being friendly and surprising people with a little act of kindness! Who could object?

But by going up to women only—and by using the "you need to smile" line—he's crossed into creep territory. Doesn't he get that at least some of the women he approaches will feel... watched, judged, or put on the spot, like someone's hitting on them?

Absolutely - the fact that he targeted women and often talked about their appearance made it creepy. Not to mention it was pretty ableist when he literally chased down a woman in a wheelchair, because obviously no one ever tells her she's beautiful so he had to go out of his way to speak to her. This guy is gross. Also, if I'm clearly in a hurry (or riding my bike!) and some random dude stops me, I'd be super pissed.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 3:50 pm 
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Vantine wrote:
Tofulish wrote:
I really appreciate Pz Myers' for being able to host an internet discussion that doesn't devolve into hateful name calling - I think he might be the only place on the internet to be able to manage that.

PZ Meyers is not really above name calling or being harsh. He's not opposed to being very brutal on twitter.


My point was about the way he moderates the comments section. I don't follow him on Twitter, I just read Pharyngula on occasion, thanks to FF (thanks for the introduction Footie!).

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Last edited by Tofulish on Wed Feb 05, 2014 3:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 3:51 pm 
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Vantine wrote:
Tofulish wrote:
Yes, me too.

There have been a lot of really great and thoughtful articles on the subject and a lot of horrendous ones and even more awful internet commentary. I really appreciate Pz Myers' for being able to host an internet discussion that doesn't devolve into hateful name calling - I think he might be the only place on the internet to be able to manage that.

PZ Meyers is not really above name calling or being harsh. He's not opposed to being very brutal on twitter.


I read Pharyngula every day. It can be pretty intense. He is often harsh in his criticisms of whatever, and his commentariat can be brutal.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 6:56 pm 
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annak wrote:
Well, my apologies to all the gay male breastfeeding experts reading this whom I'm sure I've offended.
Excellent use of sarcasm.
annak wrote:
I'm going to continue to be sexist and heterosexist if you want to call it that, and not go to my childless gay male friends with breastfeeding questions regardless.
I never said that, but if the day ever comes when simply having breasts is the best credential I have for anything, I'll realize I've set the bar pretty low.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 7:31 pm 
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annak wrote:
Well, my apologies to all the gay male breastfeeding experts reading this whom I'm sure I've offended


Image

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 10:31 pm 
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annak wrote:
Well, my apologies to all the gay male breastfeeding experts reading this whom I'm sure I've offended - like I said, this doctor was a NICU doctor not a OB/GYN, though I'm sure any doctor is capable of recognizing the signs of an infection and prescribing an antibiotic for it, in this particular case it had to do with hospital policy that may have been conducive to good results within the realm of his professional experience - ie, apparent breastfeeding success /while at the hospital/, with no regard for people's experiences once they left that environment, and without the apparent wisdom from experience to know that followup is required to get a better picture.

Anyway, like I said, this was accidentally on the wrong thread in the wrong forum, and at this point probably belongs more in the playground, though it's not something I really care to debate; I'm going to continue to be sexist and heterosexist if you want to call it that, and not go to my childless gay male friends with breastfeeding questions regardless.


You know, first and second wave feminism fought against the idea that women's bodies should determine their destinies. Hell, the idea that we could not physically bear the stress of voting was used as an argument against suffrage. I find it fascinating that we are somehow sliding down the slope to the idea that women have special child rearing knowledge that comes with the plumbing.

I would value a physician's opinion, regardless of gender or sexual orientation, over a random woman who happened to breastfeed. Having breasts does not make one an expert.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 1:08 am 
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Have you all seen this French short, Oppressed Majority? (Has it already been discussed?)



(Is it not showing up? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4UWxlVvT1A)

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 4:39 am 
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I thought it was really good. It made me very uncomfortable.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 6:06 am 
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very thought provoking. i think it could do with a trigger warning, though.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 6:09 am 
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annak wrote:
Well, my apologies to all the gay male breastfeeding experts reading this whom I'm sure I've offended - like I said, this doctor was a NICU doctor not a OB/GYN, though I'm sure any doctor is capable of recognizing the signs of an infection and prescribing an antibiotic for it, in this particular case it had to do with hospital policy that may have been conducive to good results within the realm of his professional experience - ie, apparent breastfeeding success /while at the hospital/, with no regard for people's experiences once they left that environment, and without the apparent wisdom from experience to know that followup is required to get a better picture.

Anyway, like I said, this was accidentally on the wrong thread in the wrong forum, and at this point probably belongs more in the playground, though it's not something I really care to debate; I'm going to continue to be sexist and heterosexist if you want to call it that, and not go to my childless gay male friends with breastfeeding questions regardless.


Amazing.


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 10:45 am 
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FootFace wrote:
Have you all seen this French short, Oppressed Majority? (Has it already been discussed?)



(Is it not showing up? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4UWxlVvT1A)


This gave me chills.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 12:36 pm 
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FootFace wrote:
Have you all seen this French short, Oppressed Majority? (Has it already been discussed?)



(Is it not showing up? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4UWxlVvT1A)


It was very powerful. I thought it was maybe a bit heavy-handed but then realized that no, it's not, because women deal with exactly that shiitake, and more.

The one thing I didn't like was the obvious parallels between balaclavas and hijab. Knowing that this is a French film, and knowing that France has criminalized hijab makes me really uncomfortable with the way it was parodied in this short. Although I understand that many men and patriarchal societies use mandatory hijab as a way to control and oppress women, banning hijab addresses the symptom and not the disease. Many women want to practice hijab and find it a cornerstone of their faith, and while I don't believe in their religion or the notion that women's bodies are inherently "tempting," I wouldn't stop a woman from wearing hijab no more than I would stop a woman from wearing a miniskirt and 5" stiletto heels if that's what she wants. The whole "liberating women by banning head coverings" is just a little too White Man's Burden-y for my tastes.

sorry, /rant.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 1:57 pm 
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Erika Soyf*cker wrote:
FootFace wrote:
Have you all seen this French short, Oppressed Majority? (Has it already been discussed?)



(Is it not showing up? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4UWxlVvT1A)


It was very powerful. I thought it was maybe a bit heavy-handed but then realized that no, it's not, because women deal with exactly that shiitake, and more.

The one thing I didn't like was the obvious parallels between balaclavas and hijab. Knowing that this is a French film, and knowing that France has criminalized hijab makes me really uncomfortable with the way it was parodied in this short. Although I understand that many men and patriarchal societies use mandatory hijab as a way to control and oppress women, banning hijab addresses the symptom and not the disease. Many women want to practice hijab and find it a cornerstone of their faith, and while I don't believe in their religion or the notion that women's bodies are inherently "tempting," I wouldn't stop a woman from wearing hijab no more than I would stop a woman from wearing a miniskirt and 5" stiletto heels if that's what she wants. The whole "liberating women by banning head coverings" is just a little too White Man's Burden-y for my tastes.

sorry, /rant.


I'm with you, that part made me cringe. I would like to give the short the benefit of the doubt and believe that it was meant to point out the condescension and infantilization that women of color receive from white people, including other women (including in the form of banning the hijab, as you mention). But I'm not sure the authors' intentions were shown clearly enough.


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 2:10 pm 
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aelle wrote:

I'm with you, that part made me cringe. I would like to give the short the benefit of the doubt and believe that it was meant to point out the condescension and infantilization that women of color receive from white people, including other women (including in the form of banning the hijab, as you mention). But I'm not sure the authors' intentions were shown clearly enough.


Oh, you know, I didn't even consider that but you're right, that's a good angle to approach it from.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 2:28 pm 
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aelle wrote:

I'm with you, that part made me cringe. I would like to give the short the benefit of the doubt and believe that it was meant to point out the condescension and infantilization that women of color receive from white people, including other women (including in the form of banning the hijab, as you mention). But I'm not sure the authors' intentions were shown clearly enough.



That's how I saw it too

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 3:00 pm 
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I thought it was meant to point both things out. Show how religion is used to oppress women and at the same time portray how non-muslim women keep doing this "these poor oppressed women" thing while being almost oblivious to their own oppression.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 3:06 pm 
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Something different: I'm reading a book about gifted women at the moment and it made me cry. So many of their experiences are mine. Almost being told to stop "showing off", stop being "so agressive" by pointing out logical flaws. It's the horrible how intelligent girls are being told to dumb down. It's one of the things that made my youth so incredibly horrible. I could never be honest with people because I was afraid they'd hate me for being so "weird and know-it-all-y". In primary school I actually had my math teacher put "she's always trying to be right and contradicts me!" on my report card. I hated how I was made to keep quiet at school, at family gatherings, everywhere. And how all this shiitake is still effecting me. They instilled such a huge amount of shame into me. I even feel ashamed writing this, fearing it comes off as bragging. I was made to feel so ashamed of being gifted while my brother was being praised for the same things.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 3:19 pm 
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VeganinBerlin wrote:
aelle wrote:
Erika Soyf*cker wrote:
The one thing I didn't like was the obvious parallels between balaclavas and hijab. Knowing that this is a French film, and knowing that France has criminalized hijab makes me really uncomfortable with the way it was parodied in this short. Although I understand that many men and patriarchal societies use mandatory hijab as a way to control and oppress women, banning hijab addresses the symptom and not the disease. Many women want to practice hijab and find it a cornerstone of their faith, and while I don't believe in their religion or the notion that women's bodies are inherently "tempting," I wouldn't stop a woman from wearing hijab no more than I would stop a woman from wearing a miniskirt and 5" stiletto heels if that's what she wants. The whole "liberating women by banning head coverings" is just a little too White Man's Burden-y for my tastes.
I'm with you, that part made me cringe. I would like to give the short the benefit of the doubt and believe that it was meant to point out the condescension and infantilization that women of color receive from white people, including other women (including in the form of banning the hijab, as you mention). But I'm not sure the authors' intentions were shown clearly enough.
I thought it was meant to point both things out. Show how religion is used to oppress women and at the same time portray how non-muslim women keep doing this "these poor oppressed women" thing while being almost oblivious to their own oppression.
Have I mentioned how much I love you guys? This perfectly encapsulates my own trajectory of evolving reactions after watching and chewing that video over for awhile.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 11:29 pm 
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I am really surprised by how many people, who should know better, think that there are a lot of people who just go around making up false accusations of sexual assault, and I wonder if its because they don't understand how the legal system works and that not being found guilty or not having a case prosecuted doesn't mean that the victim wasn't actually assaulted, but rather that it wasn't possible to meet a particular legal showing that would result in criminal liability for the accused. The actual rate of false accusations is between 2 and 8%.

Its easy to think that the legal system should be our only means to addressing crimes, but the problem is that it was never really set up to deal with crimes like sexual assault - it was set up to deal with crimes between two men who didn't really know one another, and we've extended it to deal with domestic violence and other crimes between people where the victim may know their attacker etc. So the procedural safeguards and requirements that work well in other contexts don't work well in these ones. In particular, the burden of proof is "beyond a reasonable doubt" and it is so hard to make that showing in sexual assault cases, because one of the key elements is showing consent. So even if you have all the DNA evidence to show sexual contact, physical evidence etc, that still can on occasion not rise to the level of "beyond a reasonable doubt" because of the question of whether the victim actually did consent or if the accused thought the victim had consented.

And unlike a crime between strangers, like a murder or a burglary, if one person isn't prosecuted or is prosecuted but not found guilty, the assumption is that there is someone else out there who was the actual killer or robber. But if its a sexual assault, where one party has accused the other, then its easy for people to think that the accused didn't commit the crime, which must mean that the accuser was lying. Because of course a lot of accusations get withdrawn, not prosecuted, accusers get found not guilty etc. 60% of sexual assault cases go unreported and of the ones that are reported, less than 10% of the accused will actually end up serving any time. http://www.rainn.org/get-information/st ... ting-rates

I am just surprised that in the wake of the Woody Allen/Dylan Farrow disclosures, that so many people talk about the justice system as the only way to address accusations by victims - ie once you've had your shot at your criminal trial then you're done and shouldn't ever bring it up in public again. And that so many people who work as social workers or lawyers still trot out the idea that "women accuse men of rape all the time." And most of all, I am surprised by all the ways in which people just try and silence Dylan Farrow and her supporters. It just makes me really sad that we can't just let someone have the opportunity to be heard, whether we believe her or not, and not compare her speaking out to "releasing a lynch mob or a mob of villagers with flaming torches and pitchforks."

This was a really great article on how hard it is to get clarity on what actually happened and why, though the legal standard of "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard works well and is completely appropriate to a criminal law context, its unfair to victims to hold them to that standard in the court of public opinion. http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/02/04/i ... -standard/

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 11:59 pm 
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The piece that I find so interesting (other than the cultural rush to shore up the patriarchy) is how in the wake of things like Stubenville and Maryville people STILL think there are women lining up to enjoy the scrutiny, victim-blaming, slut-shaming, harassment, threats, and everything else that comes with accusing (even a semi-)public figure of rape...for shiitakes and giggles!

As a survivor who didn't report to police for a variety of reasons and a victim support worker who dealt with both police and victims, quite frankly, if (knock on wood) I was assaulted again, unless it was videotaped and very, very clear that I was screaming "I don't know you and I am not consenting to this" I would not report it. And I hate that. But my sense of self-preservation and experience with the criminal justice system tells me that it is not worth the retraumatization for a generally fruitless outcome.*

It reveals to me an especially insidious form of misogyny predicated on the idea that not only are women vindictive harpies but we are so profoundly stupid as to have no sense of self-preservation.

*Of course I support whatever decisions survivors/victims make regarding police reporting.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 12:20 am 
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I guess what throws me is that in every discussion of sexual assault or rape, someone makes that comment as though it were a fact. And in the Woody Allen debates, some of the people making the arguments are women who work in the system as social workers or lawyers, who should know better. And they aren't stupid or uncompassionate, so I want to understand why they see that "high rate of false accusations." And the only think I can come up with is this idea that the only place you can go as a victim is the courts, even though they are really stacked against victims (for the reasons I mention above) and that if your attacker isn't one of the 4% that are convicted, then you must have been lying.

I have the same experience as you, but I just wish we could get to the root of all those internet comments that honestly seem to believe that men are at great risk of false rape accusations. Even though, as we both know, men are far likelier to be raped than to be the target of false rape accusations. I get the ignorance when it comes from MRAs, but from women who work within the system? I read an amazing book on DV prosecutions and all the ways in which the legal system is set up to deal with two (white) male strangers who have a short interactions that needs to be sorted, and so it utterly fails interactions between people who know one another or where one person is able to physically overpower another. I remember being amazed that because many men can kill their female partners with their bare hands (throwing them down stairs, beating them to death) the sentences for men who kill their wives are low in comparison to women who often have to defend themselves using weapons, which automatically means a longer sentence, along with a similar prejudice where people think that women lie about having needed to defend themselves, perhaps because they don't want to recognize just how common intimate partner violence is.

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