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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 8:09 am 
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smoothie wrote:
6 people were attacked by nazis after a feminist demonstration in Malmö, Sweden on International Women's Day. One is still in a coma now, two days later. I can't find anything in english about it. It is horrible.
Mihl wrote:
Oh, my god, how terrible. I'm horrified. It's been some years since I spent much time in Sweden, but it freaks me out to see stuff like this happening there.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 8:11 am 
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smoothie wrote:
6 people were attacked by nazis after a feminist demonstration in Malmö, Sweden on International Women's Day. One is still in a coma now, two days later. I can't find anything in english about it. It is horrible.


Wow! What is wrong with some people?

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 1:49 pm 
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Sorry I didn't reply earlier, I was in school. I'm happy someone else could provide some links! It is so so terrible and absolutely horrifying.


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 3:35 pm 
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Oh my god, Elevatorgate is still being talked about, and the fallout from it is still affecting the atheist/free-thought webosphere. It was a factor in starting Atheism Plus, and that, in turn, has further enraged the douchebags. So much vitriol over something so mild (not to mention reasonable).

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 7:30 pm 
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lutin wrote:
I thought of you a lot when reading the piece, couroupita, and wondered if you might also be an organic chemist. That sucks. Not sure you want to hash through more than what you've put in the grad students thread, but if you want to? I can't believe that kind of bullshiitake exists, boys club or no (re: time and stress expectations). But to add a boys club on top of that? forking ridiculous. Imagine how much more synthesis (or whatever) could happen if you didn't reject 50% of your potential workers and treated them like human beings.

Sorry to respond sort of late to this. I'd definitely be open to having a discussion about expectations of students, sexism in academia, etc. I had to think on this a little while because though I've talked quite a lot about my experiences, I'm hesitant to expand on certain things just because I dont have that degree in my hand quite yet and I'm worried about retribution. I think most people that come to our field have an idea of what to expect and there's a lot of judgment if you don't agree with it. I'll make my way over to the grad student thread to pick this up there so I dont derail the feminism thread.

SB81, your story reminds me of when I was a prospective grad student and one university was courting me pretty strongly. I mentioned to the prof who kept calling me that I was engaged and that location was a big factor in my decision because I wanted to stay near my fiance/main support system/sanity saver. I was shamed by this prof (old, white, male) who implied that that said a lot about me as a person (weak) and that many engagements don't last anyway. Errr... I agree you shouldn't put aside your own dreams and career for another person, but that's not exactly what I was doing and it's not weak or feminine or whatever to not want to spend over 5 years alone and unsupported.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 7:41 pm 
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I really saw the discrimination happen to a friend of mine. She went to MIT and got her double bachelors and double masters in electrical engineering and physics in 4 years - so she is clearly brilliant and a really hard worker. She was offered PhD spots in all the top physics programs (CalTech, Princeton etc). She was courted by all of them - flown out, met everyone, and finally picked Princeton. And then her career ended up stalling, because her professors just routinely wouldn't give her the mentoring that a PhD student needs to make that next leap. Her husband was in the same program, and the difference in the way they were treated was pretty eye-opening. Her husband was really actively mentored - with his adviser inviting him home and fostering a personal friendship, and then going to bat for him where jobs and academic positions were concerned. My friend in the meantime, got bounced around from adviser to adviser, and finally finished her PhD with very little support and no one actively cheering for her. They ended up moving so her husband could get a great job in academia and she is home with their children, after spending a few years trying really hard to find a position at a university - she got one and then stalled there, because of a lack of mentoring, and then finally just felt like it wasn't worth fighting so hard.

It was just so silly to me that Princeton would work so hard to bring someone stellar on board, and then fail to develop them.

I think the difference between success and failure in any profession is made by the mentoring you get. You really cannot teach yourself all the skills you need to know on your own, or from a book and you can't meet all the people you need to know without the introductions. So women who did really well at university, where they could learn from a book or a lab and had a pretty equal playing field end up falling behind dramatically once they need mentoring. I think its a lot like what linanil said - the presumption of competence favors men, who are hired for their potential, while women have to prove what they can do before they are hired.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:25 am 
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i friend posted this. http://sftimes.co/?id=17&src=share_fb_new_17

what do you all think? i think this is a simple, straight-forward place to start, maybe for your friend RandiJM?

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 4:07 am 
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Wow, tofulish, that's one of the worst examples of discrimination I've heard of! It's so true what you say about mentorship. I know I haven't grown as much as I could have because I've had to teach myself everything, so there are a lot of gaps in my knowledge. In my case, I could have been mentored more if I'd reached out to my advisor, but because he is so abrasive and can't deal with women, and I'm so intimidated by him, we don't have the mentoring relationship he has with my male colleagues. I can't be comfortable with that confrontational, aggressive, yet buddy-buddy kind of interaction he seems to want. I feel like, in addition to the much more serious problems youve described, it would be so nice if professors were schooled by their depts in how to mentor more professionally and had an awareness of how the way they behave excludes many students. It just seems like the way universities are run is so wild wild west--profs can do and act however they like with no guidance or repercussions, and only the strong or tenacious students succeed. It would also be so great to have more programs in place to help women navigate this environment and gain the skills they need to advocate for themselves better. Unfortunately, in my lab, the women are often humiliated and reduced.to tears in front of our group (seriously, ive seen way too many of my female colleagues cry during their presentations). Somehow, many of the men seem better equipped to deal with the aggressiveness and criticism than the women are.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:18 pm 
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Report on a study which failed to link the use of birth control with "risky" sexual behavior: http://mediamatters.org/blog/2014/03/11 ... ins/198432

Super interesting. Also:
Quote:
What's unfortunate is that making a case for something many women need relies on the implicit stigmatization of their sexuality. That researchers and health advocates need to presume harsh judgement of sexually active women to convince skeptics of birth control's utility just reminds us how far we have to go.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:26 pm 
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maybe o/t, but lutin reminded me of a video an acquaintance of mine made during the Sandra Fluke kerfuffle.


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 9:18 am 
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A blog post (written by a man) explaining some criticisms of problematic, sexist behaviour by male activists within certain groups, which includes several graphics drawn by women and LGBTQ people without crediting them at all, let alone linking to their website (which I understand is generally considered the acceptable way of reusing other people's images for a non-profit blog). I'm deliberately not linking to the blog or the post here, but I emailed the blog owner to suggest crediting the artists yesterday and still haven't had any response. I find it amazing that someone who has clearly spent a lot of time thinking about these issues wouldn't consider that his own actions are also marginalising the work of women and LGBTQ people.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2014 1:54 pm 
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The sexism in a German dslr camera and photography forum I sometimes read. It makes my head explode.


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 1:40 pm 
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I think this is a great chart on how to speak to sexual assault and rape survivors. http://www.upworthy.com/some-helpful-sm ... g=2&c=ufb1

It totally challenges my feminism that people don't listen to survivors

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 3:26 pm 
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News from the cycling world.

A fairly high profile (for cycling) sprinter threw his bike on the ground during a race a few days ago. He'd suffered a mechanical problem that essentially took him out of the stage of the race he was competing in, and he was, understandably, very frustrated. I think it shows immaturity to smash a $10k bike on the ground, but I also know that I might not have the resources to deal with the frustration much better after racing for 4+ hours and having a mechanical. So, whatever, he did a dumb thing.

The thing that has been really bugging me is how he chose to frame his "apology" to his bike (and, more importantly, his team sponsor, Giant Bicycles):

"Tried to keep our relationship going after our fight yesterday. Apologized to my sweetheart this morning! #giantLove"
Image
https://twitter.com/marcelkittel/status ... 24/photo/1

I get that he needs to make some kind of display to show to placate Giant (and the fans who will be calling him a crybaby and poor sport), and I imagine that he was trying to do it in a funny way that would show he's having a sense of humor about the whole thing. I am still really bothered by the way he chose to use the image of the boyfriend or husband who's come crawling back to his girlfriend or wife with flowers after giving her a black eye. It gives me the creeps, and it makes me feel even more acutely than I usually do how women are generally viewed in the sport of cycling. In short, I have a sad. :(

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 3:27 pm 
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Mihl wrote:
The sexism in a German dslr camera and photography forum I sometimes read. It makes my head explode.


The Mr & I both notice a lot of male posturing in the photography world. Lots of looking down on anyone who doesn't know all the technical jargon and my lens is biggest...


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 3:51 pm 
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jordanpattern wrote:
News from the cycling world.

A fairly high profile (for cycling) sprinter threw his bike on the ground during a race a few days ago. He'd suffered a mechanical problem that essentially took him out of the stage of the race he was competing in, and he was, understandably, very frustrated. I think it shows immaturity to smash a $10k bike on the ground, but I also know that I might not have the resources to deal with the frustration much better after racing for 4+ hours and having a mechanical. So, whatever, he did a dumb thing.

The thing that has been really bugging me is how he chose to frame his "apology" to his bike (and, more importantly, his team sponsor, Giant Bicycles):

"Tried to keep our relationship going after our fight yesterday. Apologized to my sweetheart this morning! #giantLove"
Image
https://twitter.com/marcelkittel/status ... 24/photo/1

I get that he needs to make some kind of display to show to placate Giant (and the fans who will be calling him a crybaby and poor sport), and I imagine that he was trying to do it in a funny way that would show he's having a sense of humor about the whole thing. I am still really bothered by the way he chose to use the image of the boyfriend or husband who's come crawling back to his girlfriend or wife with flowers after giving her a black eye. It gives me the creeps, and it makes me feel even more acutely than I usually do how women are generally viewed in the sport of cycling. In short, I have a sad. :(


He also posted this lovely thing the day it happened:

Quote:
I'm VERY sorry for throwing my beloved Giant Propel on the ground. I still love it! We're just having an intense relationship. #deepemotions


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 4:34 pm 
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Simply_Love wrote:
jordanpattern wrote:
News from the cycling world.

A fairly high profile (for cycling) sprinter threw his bike on the ground during a race a few days ago. He'd suffered a mechanical problem that essentially took him out of the stage of the race he was competing in, and he was, understandably, very frustrated. I think it shows immaturity to smash a $10k bike on the ground, but I also know that I might not have the resources to deal with the frustration much better after racing for 4+ hours and having a mechanical. So, whatever, he did a dumb thing.

The thing that has been really bugging me is how he chose to frame his "apology" to his bike (and, more importantly, his team sponsor, Giant Bicycles):

"Tried to keep our relationship going after our fight yesterday. Apologized to my sweetheart this morning! #giantLove"
Image
https://twitter.com/marcelkittel/status ... 24/photo/1

I get that he needs to make some kind of display to show to placate Giant (and the fans who will be calling him a crybaby and poor sport), and I imagine that he was trying to do it in a funny way that would show he's having a sense of humor about the whole thing. I am still really bothered by the way he chose to use the image of the boyfriend or husband who's come crawling back to his girlfriend or wife with flowers after giving her a black eye. It gives me the creeps, and it makes me feel even more acutely than I usually do how women are generally viewed in the sport of cycling. In short, I have a sad. :(


He also posted this lovely thing the day it happened:

Quote:
I'm VERY sorry for throwing my beloved Giant Propel on the ground. I still love it! We're just having an intense relationship. #deepemotions
Yeah, that is really screwed up, and I think the fact we all immediately recognize it as (attempted) "humor" speaks to just how deeply we've internalized these long-running, established, but harmful and disrespectful tropes. And it's a pretty short hop from treating an object like a person to treating a person like an object. "I only hurt you cuz I love you, baby, and I can't stand it when you disappoint me/let me down/make me angry." Are any female cyclists calling him on it? If it were handled properly, this seems like it could be an opportunity to open a conversation about the way women are viewed in your sport (probably in other sports as well), and how that makes things difficult for people.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 6:02 pm 
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quite a few things have been challenging my feminism lately, am not sure how to form my thoughts around it/just want to get it out there.

i am not religious in the slightest, but i am expected to attend catholic church maybe once or twice a year with my mother and grandmother to pay respects for dead relatives/holidays, etc.. after years of dealing with the upset and drama it causes my relatives to not go - i mostly just attend because it makes them feel better. apart from appearing to support an organization that only fits women into its structure as followers, it kills me just a little inside that there always seems to be a pro-life speech at the end to raise money for some group that harasses people at sexual health clinics, or to raise money for homophobic groups. i hate hate hate that because i am there it is is assumed i support that sort of behavior, because i vehemently do not. i hate not being able to challenge these people on their women/gay hating. i hate that there is a forum for those ideas that i am expected to attend. my grandma doesn't even speak english at the level that she knows this is what they're talking about - she just goes because that is what you do, you go to church on sunday. if i don't go when she asks me, she takes it as a personal offense. my mother is uncritical and basically does not question what she hears. they do not understand how much anguish this causes me and why i can't just go with it.

i volunteered at a javascript conference, as i am thinking of taking a front end development course and figured it would be good to get involved. i was shocked at the male:female ratio. i checked attendees in, and out of 700 people, i think i counted about 15 women? i knew tech was male dominated, but really. i was speechless, and to be honest, it was kinda surreal walking through a crowd of only men. some of the presentations were written as if they were only addressing males too, like to make it more lively it would be peppered with things like, 'yes sir, you can do 'x' using this command.'

i am having feels about playing roller derby too - there has been so much work put into making it a sport that isn't hot women beating the shiitake out of each other on tv: 70 page rule set that distances itself from the showy 70's shiitake, focus on athleticism and strategy, men's, junior's and co-ed teams being founded etc. etc. from the outside, before i started, it seemed subversive because it espouses a lot of characteristics that women are traditionally discouraged from having. i like the pro-woman, DIY, grassroots, anyone-can-be-great-at-this mentality it was born from. it's the only sport i can think of where people say, "the men's version just isn't at the same level." at the same time, there is a literal male gaze that i feel being involved in the sport. it is totally different than joining, say, a soccer team. like all the photographers that go out to bouts are male. i can't think of one female one that i've seen. female referees are a slim minority. at one point, all our league's practices were photographed and i have no idea why anyone thought it was a good idea to turn our practices into a spectacle. it didn't feel like were were practicing, it felt like we were putting on a show for this guy who came to take photos. that was put to an end by some players who were having similar sentiments. there also is this weird 'derby girl' trope where i've seen men say they want to date a girl that plays derby or i've had guys i've met get really creepy and assume i am super sexual and risky just because i play this sport - it is even weirder since like any other sport, people from all walks of life play it. at the end of the day, i like being involved, but i don't know how to feel about all these other things that are wrapped into it.


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 6:13 pm 
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postnothing, have you looked into groups for women? Like Girl Develop it. I'm involved with an infosec group for women. But there are a lot of organizations that focus on women because it is a field where women struggle to get recognition.

And in terms of catholic churches, I haven't been to a lot of different ones but the one I grew up going to never did stuff like that or any others I've gone to (which is not any recently). There is a catholic church near me and I was kind of shocked that they decided to put up a little 'aborted fetus cemetery' in front of their church for lent. The church is near a high profile clinic which may be why but I always thought that stuff wasn't talked about in catholic churches, just kind of 'known'. Anyway, I am quasi guessing that it is your specific church, not to say that the catholic church is pro-choice or even embracing of homosexuality, I just never thought they were outspoken about such topics.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 6:31 pm 
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So much of it depends on where you are. I went to Mass at St. Patricks in NYC and there wasn't ever mention of abortion or anti-gay rights stuff. But I only went there, because the church around the corner from me (55th and 1st) was full of that kind of stuff.

And when I moved to NJ (Diocese of Paterson), with a Bishop who is very pro-life and anti-gay, all the churches near me had a pro-life bit or anti-gay bit at the end. One day the sermon was about how God's love unites us all and no matter what race or gender or nationality or anything you are, it brings us all together. And then at the end of the Mass, the priest rabbited on about how gay people were a threat to marriage and they have civil unions and why can't they just be happy with that and encouraging everyone to donate and sign petitions to fight genderless marriage in NJ.

And after that I couldn't go back to the Catholic Church. No matter how great Pope Francis is, until all the priests, bishops etc stop actively fighting against genderless marriage, its just not the church for me. Even though I loved it and miss it like crazy. I am so bummed to be missing out on another Easter, but I can't condone the hatred.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 8:35 pm 
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it totally just the church my family goes to, though i have a feeling the people that go up to the pulpit at the end of mass to solicit donations go around to different churches and give the same spiel. i bet they are alienating more individuals than they think they are - there are two clinics that provide abortions withing walking distance of the church and it's likely someone in the congregation has had an abortion, identifies as queer or has someone close to them that does.

linanil, that aborted fetus cemetery is just awful. i think even if i tried, i couldn't think of something that awful.

aw... girl develop it doesn't seem to have a chapter in my city, but there are a few nearby. i'm going to do a bit more googling and see if i can find anything. that bootcamp i was talking about in the job thread is run by a woman who started a non-profit dedicated to teaching women code.

** i feel like i should add a disclaimer to my other post that i really do appreciate the sheer amount of time everyone involved in derby puts in - it's really a labor of love - but sometimes i when i look at it as a whole, i am like, why is this the way it is?


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 6:39 am 
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You can check meetup.com to see if you happen to see any female based tech organizations in your area.

And regarding the church, I am guessing there is nothing you can do it about it like slightly nudge towards a different one. My grandma, who is a near-daily church goer would look at me crazy if I suggested such a thing but other people in my family who are infrequent church goers aren't too picky and have a few others they would find acceptable.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 10:16 am 
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Ugh. Stories like this make me sad and furious.

http://jezebel.com/what-life-is-like-wh ... 1542273510

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 9:33 am 
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The whole Buncombe County Schools bullying saga (over a boy being banned from bringing his My Little Pony backpack to school because it's a "trigger for bullying" and has "become a distraction").

This response summed up a lot of my own responses to it: http://raisingmyrainbow.com/2014/03/19/ ... all-wrong/

Quote:
As much as you have failed Grayson, you’ve also failed his bullies. You need to help them learn the difference between appropriate and inappropriate behaviors. If backpacks are triggers to these kids, they need help. They need to be able to see a backpack and not act out in dangerous, antisocial and harmful ways. After all, backpacks are everywhere.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 7:55 am 
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Location: Denver
If one more customer asks me if I can actually fix their bike (or lift something) or asks one if my coworkers if "she (meaning me) can actually fix bikes too?" I might lose my shiitake. It has happened at least 4 times this week and it is so insulting. It is definitely a gender thing.

Right now, my plan is to calmly say, "Is there a particular reason you think I can't?" It is the least rude thing I can think of, but it also puts them on the spot, which I am fine with. One of my coworkers and I were joking that we should put a disclaimer on the website.


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