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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 7:10 pm 
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Mr. Shankly wrote:
sisterlegume wrote:
Reading this, I find myself mentally preparing for the day someone exposes themself to me. Just how close do these people get? Close enough to kick?

It's actually better to ignore them because they get off getting a rise out of the people they're exposing themselves to and it encourages them to continue doing it because they're getting the reaction they wanted.


I would also say that you can't really control how you're going to react in any situation, and that its important to just be okay with however you react in the moment. I also think that spending too much time worrying about preparing for a bad event takes away your enjoyment in living.

I was flashed at 15, and I thought of all the stuff I should have said. And then when I was flashed again at 25, it was completely different circumstances and I was just as flummoxed. When I was 25, the guy passed me on my mountain bike, and then waited on the trail for a really narrow and difficult part, where I had to slow down, and surprised me. I felt really unsafe because it was on a small path in the woods and he had been the only person I had seen on my ride, so I just kicked it up as hard as I could to get passed him and was really upset by it. Of course the minute I got home and wanted to call the police my stepmother was dismissive, because I "should have" made fun of him and told him he had a small penis and I needed a magnifying glass. But in the moment, I was scared and not looking to risk escalating a situation. L'esprit de l'escalier is strong with her.

And more recently, someone I know made a joke about raping me. I would have expected that I'd call my husband over and had him pound the shiitake out of the guy. But instead, I got my husband, we left, and I only told him what had happened after we left. I figured I didn't want my husband getting into an unnecessary fight.

It often annoys me when people hear about something bad and with 20/20 hindsight say "I would have done...." (normally involving turning into a superhero and beating people up) because the thing is, you have no idea what is going to happen and how you are going to get triggered. I reacted surprisingly well to being mugged at gunpoint, but sexualized threats really just shut me down.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 7:16 pm 
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Tofulish wrote:
Mr. Shankly wrote:
sisterlegume wrote:
Reading this, I find myself mentally preparing for the day someone exposes themself to me. Just how close do these people get? Close enough to kick?

It's actually better to ignore them because they get off getting a rise out of the people they're exposing themselves to and it encourages them to continue doing it because they're getting the reaction they wanted.


I would also say that you can't really control how you're going to react in any situation, and that its important to just be okay with however you react in the moment.

Yeah, of course not but if you do have the ability to think quickly and clearly, I'm just saying that it's best to ignore them. Some people think that yelling at them or making fun of them is going to make the exposer ashamed but that may be exactly what they're looking for. There are people who like the risk and/or the humiliation that comes from exposing themselves and the reaction it receives. Another thing is that you can definitely call the police if they're exposing themselves to you in a public place. Sometimes people hesitate to call the police but it is 100% okay to call them for that.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 7:19 pm 
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My response was more directed to Sisterlegume. I agree with you that ignoring people is the best solution, but I still think its good to know that no matter what you prepare for, you may react completely differently and that is okay.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 8:21 pm 
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Tofulish wrote:
My response was more directed to Sisterlegume. I agree with you that ignoring people is the best solution, but I still think its good to know that no matter what you prepare for, you may react completely differently and that is okay.

I don't know if I necessarily agree. I think that the types of men who do this kind of thing do it on the assumption that women aren't going to do anything (because, of course, we are socialized not to). I can't tell you the number of times I've let harassment or even groping go because I didn't want to be impolite or make a scene. Not anymore! fork them. I will shame them as loudly as possible if it feels safe to do so.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 8:30 pm 
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Semen Strong
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Again, my only point is that in the moment, you will react the way you react, no matter how you've prepared and I hope that you can be okay with that.

I find it painful to be second guessed/ second guess yourself that you "should have" done something different.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 8:53 pm 
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Tofulish wrote:
Again, my only point is that in the moment, you will react the way you react, no matter how you've prepared and I hope that you can be okay with that.

I find it painful to be second guessed/ second guess yourself that you "should have" done something different.

Oh for sure. I agree completely. There's really no way to know what you're going to do until it happens and I think we all do what feels safest in the moment.

I was speaking to what both Mr Shankly and you have said about ignoring being the best blanket policy and expressing my doubts that it should necessarily be the goal, for those lucky enough to be in control of their responses to harassment.

But I think we are basically in agreement here.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 11:02 pm 
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I think the best reaction depends on the situation, the woman being harassed, and the harasser, so I don't think it's fair to say it's always best to do any given thing.

Sometimes ignoring is great, and it's a good tactic because you don't have to remember to do much. However, there are definitely situations where a woman just feels better getting her frustration off her chest and yelling at a guy who harasses her. I think if it makes the woman in the situation feel better and doesn't put her in danger, then there's no reason why the speculative feelings of the harasser should outweigh hers. There are also situations where a woman can really make a scene and get the harasser arrested (remember that awesome subway video from New York?). Those situations are probably few and far between, but I admire the women who aren't afraid to make a fuss and stand up for themselves.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 12:01 am 
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Emilie wrote:
paprikapapaya wrote:
Thanks, t'lish, you're beautiful too.

It's definitely not about beauty. It's about victimizing women. And perhaps, something about being fat and fabulous, or tattooed, or having short hair...shakes them up a bit. Maybe it says to them that this person refuses to be victimized by the pathological, limiting, horrible societal standards of beauty...and so would be harder to victimize on the street. I really don't know, but it's definitely a real thing that I have experienced in my own life. It's an interesting thing.


SO TRUE!!!!!!!
...Harrassment, "beauty" standard, instructions to smile or on how to dress (whatever the dresscode!)... It's all ONLY about DOMINATION... and by refusing to obey and conform to your assigned role of victim it you're just threatening patriarchy even more!!!!!!! :D
(how exciting!!!!)

oh and this dresscode issue reminds me of a slutwalk that took place here last year. I totally agree with the concept but what I felt the need to wear was old baggy clothes. Just to assess my right NOT to please... For sometimes I feel sort of an awkward pressure rather in that way ("be sexy! Tanz für mich!") ...


I hear you. Once I got catcalled, and you know what I was wearing? A huge purple winter coat that makes me shapeless, with my hood up and my scarf hiding half my face, and jeans with big winter boots. The only way they could really tell that I was a woman at all was probably because my coat is kinda feminine? They couldn't tell my age or what I looked like, I might as well have been wearing a niqab. There's really not a thing you can do to make sure it doesn't happen.

Also, I hear you on the slutwalks. Totally support the concept, but I've been both shamed for wearing something skimy and shamed for being too prudish or butch. You really can't win.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 3:27 pm 
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The workman installing my cooker kept telling me over and over about this thing I have to do. At one point, he said to me, "If I come back to find it hasn't been done, I can switch off your gas." (To which I thought, fork you, I don't have to let you in my house.) So finally, after telling me easily 5 times (and I said OK every time he said it), he started asking me to promise I'd do it. So I said to him, "I'm an adult, I heard what you said." I can't exactly prove he treated me like that because I'm a woman, but I guarantee he wouldn't have asked my husband to "promise" to do something he'd been told (after telling him to do it 5 times). Mike told me I should've said I'd make sure my husband sorted it, but fork that.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 4:43 pm 
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rachell37 wrote:
The workman installing my cooker kept telling me over and over about this thing I have to do. At one point, he said to me, "If I come back to find it hasn't been done, I can switch off your gas." (To which I thought, fork you, I don't have to let you in my house.) So finally, after telling me easily 5 times (and I said OK every time he said it), he started asking me to promise I'd do it. So I said to him, "I'm an adult, I heard what you said." I can't exactly prove he treated me like that because I'm a woman, but I guarantee he wouldn't have asked my husband to "promise" to do something he'd been told (after telling him to do it 5 times). Mike told me I should've said I'd make sure my husband sorted it, but fork that.

You just reminded me of the repairman who freaked out when I got up on a ladder to change a lightbulb.


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 10:57 pm 
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Shy Mox wrote:

I hear you. Once I got catcalled, and you know what I was wearing? A huge purple winter coat that makes me shapeless, with my hood up and my scarf hiding half my face, and jeans with big winter boots. The only way they could really tell that I was a woman at all was probably because my coat is kinda feminine? They couldn't tell my age or what I looked like, I might as well have been wearing a niqab. There's really not a thing you can do to make sure it doesn't happen.


Yeah, I think I have shared this before but last winter I was walking my dog after dark wearing a bulky, dark coat that I thought made it pretty unclear I was a woman. Some dudes drove by catcalling and saying gross stuff. As they drove by I shouted fork you and then they stopped their car and called me a bisque and said they were going to come rape me. I had to slip away down a side street because there weren't enough people around that I felt safe standing my ground.

When I was really young some old guy in a tan overcoat exposed himself as I rode by on my bike. I was so innocent and oblivious that I thought he just had really wrinkly khaki pants on. My parents were riding behind me and were too shocked to say anything to him, but did tell me later what had happened. At least I didn't actually see him.

I shared that onion article on my fb feed. Thank you for posting that!!

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 1:18 pm 
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couroupita wrote:
When I was really young some old guy in a tan overcoat exposed himself as I rode by on my bike. I was so innocent and oblivious that I thought he just had really wrinkly khaki pants on.


Okay I really don't mean to make light of a serious conversation, but the wrinkly pants comment made me choke on my water with laughter.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 3:26 pm 
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THE FRENCH >:(
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ztz5VX-LJjo

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 3:59 pm 
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Emilie wrote:

"The French" is kind of a blanket statement and really unfair. Also, could you please explain what is going on in the video? It's completely in French and most of us here don't speak French fluently.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 4:13 pm 
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Mr. Shankly wrote:
Emilie wrote:

"The French" is kind of a blanket statement and really unfair. Also, could you please explain what is going on in the video? It's completely in French and most of us here don't speak French fluently.


I admit it does sound unfair and provocative :) -I was just referring to "the art of seduction and chivallery" assessed by some/too many (male) french politicians or intellectuals to whom raping the maid or trafficking callgirls is rather normal :'(
At least the sad affairs that happened lately did emphasize this problem (like the way some react about a future law against prostitution clients...)

Sorry for the video, I thought the case was already known; in short: the minister was wearing a dress and was loudly "complimented" by her colleagues. Yet I found an article in english: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... itical-art

Enjoy! :)

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 4:31 pm 
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Emilie wrote:
Sorry for the video, I thought the case was already known; in short: the minister was wearing a dress and was loudly "complimented" by her colleagues. Yet I found an article in english: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... itical-art

Enjoy! :)

Thanks! That is incredibly disgusting. Duflot sounds pretty interesting, though! I'm going to look her up now. I find it funny that they have a problem with the clothes that she wears because they claim she's not being respectful, meanwhile they have no problem being incredibly outright sexist and disgusting- that's not an image that I'd like the world to see if I were in government.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 6:25 pm 
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Nearly everyone to ever comment on any article ever on the internet. forking seriously.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 9:36 pm 
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This quote, all over the damned internet.

Look like a girl
Act like a lady
Think like a man
Work like a boss

AAHHH Twitch like a woman on the edge!


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 11:05 pm 
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heathenmama wrote:
This quote, all over the damned internet.

Look like a girl
Act like a lady
Think like a man
Work like a boss

AAHHH Twitch like a woman on the edge!


I haven't seen that anywhere but SO GROSS.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 11:34 pm 
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My well meaning family, when I mentioned I hadn't landed a job yet but my fiancé was working two jobs while I cooked/cleaned/took care of cats.
"Yeah, that's the way it should be!"
Well, no. I like working, and I certainly don't want my guy being overworked and stressed.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2012 1:31 am 
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heathenmama wrote:
This quote, all over the damned internet.

Look like a girl
Act like a lady
Think like a man
Work like a boss

AAHHH Twitch like a woman on the edge!


omg yes I hate those (seen several versions)

and... "think like a man" ??????????????
THINK LIKE A MAN????????????

yeah, THINKING is a typically masculine affair of course!!!!

>:(

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2012 9:27 pm 
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I hate it when people point to the fact that women stayed home to raise the kids as a sign that the 50s were a more prosperous time. No, they stayed home because there was little opportunity for women outside the home and they often stayed in bad marriages because they didn't have options. And why is it just the women "raising the kids" didn't men participate in that as well?

Even if you call it a luxury that few families enjoy today, its still part of the whole "cult of the awesome mother" which basically disempowers real women by holding up a false image of what mothers are. Let's agree that all women get to do what is right for them and their families.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2012 5:30 pm 
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Bic apparently makes pens specifically for females now...what? I can't find the commercial on youtube but it just makes me frustrated.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 10:29 am 
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fb friend organising a bachelor party: "who knows a hot blonde tripper?"

all the reactions answering like it was normal. The worst: ladies kindly mentionning the very talented one their husbands told they have seen...

Whats wrong with them?

Sorry to repeat myself but ...How are we supposed to trust men (AND women???) in such a depressing world?

sad sad sad

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 11:11 am 
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I can't say too much about the situation I ended up in but I used to have to deliberately dress sloppy to avoid the comments a male directed at me. He would constantly say "you looks so pretty and feminine" and a hell of a lot worse. It was so intense that I ended up hating my appearance (I still do) to the extent where I was over-eating to make myself overweight. Even though what he done was incredibly wrong I am told to "deal with it" and "get over it" when all I want is to be happy, safe and be free of harassment due to my gender.

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