| Register  | FAQ  | Search | Login 
It is currently Fri Sep 19, 2014 3:20 pm

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 34 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Celebrating the Seccession Without Slaves
PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 11:42 am 
Offline
Making Threats to Punks Again
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2010 10:48 pm
Posts: 1137
Location: Arizona
Fascist wrote:
Don’t worry, though! It’s suggested that the race debate around Obama’s election might be one of those events that helps to spur a sort of ‘second wave’ of the Civil Rights Movement Civil War II

_________________
Empathy, he once had decided, must be limited to herbivores or anyhow omnivores who could depart from a meat diet.
--Philip K. Dick


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Celebrating the Seccession Without Slaves
PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 6:32 pm 
Offline
Saggy Butt
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 28, 2010 4:10 pm
Posts: 307
Location: Sacramento Ca
janejellyroll wrote:
veganskater wrote:
I think others have already covered it, but the civil war was about slavery period, the whole "states rights" stuff was all due to non slave states refusal to send slaves back to the south. It isn't about bashing the "south" but they need to wake up and stop trying to white wash their history,* they should deal with their history how Germany did with the holocaust, I mean could you imagine the outrage if nazi flags where still flying in some German states and people where defending it as part of their history and their "state rights" like some southern states do with the confederate flag (or the loser flag as I like to call it).*

*sorry I know that people don't like to bring up nazi Germany, but I think it is a valid point in the point I am making*


It isn't the people don't "like" bringing up the Nazis -- it's just that it hardly ever advances the conversation. Also, if we "deal" with our history the way the Germans did in the wake of World War II, it would mean that it would literally be illegal to fly the Confederate Flag and advocate the value of slave-holding. Is that what you'd like to see happen here?


You are right it hardly advances conversations because it is normally brought into conversations where it isn't a valid comparison, where as I think mine is a valid one, especially the question of the flying of an enemy flag on USA soil. And I am not comparing what the Nazi's did to what happened in the South, I am only saying that the reaction should have been the same as the aftermath in Germany, but seeing as the Civil War was first and most white Americans where racist regardless of where they lived, it makes sense that things happened the way they did. And to your second question, YES.

_________________
" It was my dog Boycott who led me to question the right of humans to eat other sentient beings."
— Cesar Chavez


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Celebrating the Seccession Without Slaves
PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 6:46 pm 
Offline
Saggy Butt
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 28, 2010 4:10 pm
Posts: 307
Location: Sacramento Ca
Fascist wrote:
veganskater wrote:
I think others have already covered it, but the civil war was about slavery period, the whole "states rights" stuff was all due to non slave states refusal to send slaves back to the south.
It isn't about bashing the "south" but they need to wake up and stop trying to white wash their history,* they should deal with their history how Germany did with the holocaust, I mean could you imagine the outrage if nazi flags where still flying in some German states and people where defending it as part of their history and their "state rights" like some southern states do with the confederate flag (or the loser flag as I like to call it).*
*sorry I know that people don't like to bring up nazi Germany, but I think it is a valid point in the point I am making*

Comment 1: As noted earlier by pandacookie, bashing between the North and South does still occur and it is totally based around ridiculous stereotypes. Northerners think we are all not only ignorant, but just plain stupid rednecks. (The Research Triangle Park in NC has the nation’s highest concentration of PhDs. And, no, I don’t know if they migrated here.) Southerners think of Yankees as uppity city folk (as though there were no working class persons, e.g. the Rust Belt, or rural areas).

Comment 2: Pointing out bad ‘sections’ of history might not necessarily be “bashing,” but it is an embarrassment in any society. And again, most of history is whitewashed, not solely below the Mason-Dixon Line. Colonialism, sir—it was global.

Comment 3: The Third Reich’s aftermath is a different case from that of the Antebellum South. Germans had to deal with the Holocaust immediately; a good number of them didn’t even know the specifics of death camps. Slavery in the U.S. was an economic system ‘slowly’ built up and was perpetuated through a much longer time period than a little more than a decade—it is/was an entrenched system of racial privilege (don’t forget the Amerindians!). Also, it was explained to me that after the Civil War, reformers did pretty much everything except the one thing that could have fixed the economic disadvantage of former slaves: land reform. (Added to this were the establishment of the Jim Crow laws in the Reconstruction period, but this is another story entirely.)

In sum: No, we (i.e. the entire U.S.) have not come to terms with the various systems of privilege that exist in our society. With regards to race, we still have de facto segregation and white flight. Thus, we are not very good at talking about white privilege.


I have nothing against the south or people from there. Nor do I think they are any less intelligent, I want to make it clear I am not trying to bash anyone, and I know that all history is white washed, I love to read history books like Lies my teacher told me and The People's history of the United States. I am only saying that we as a country need to stop making excuses for what happened and pretending it was something that it wasn't. It was about slavery first and foremost, but that isn't to say the North didn't have their issues. Also let me add that the majority of Southern people did not own slaves, but they did benefit from slavery, most poor Southerners ended up being used as cannon fodder for the rich land owners, that is an issue not really dealt with or discussed.
I understand that the cases between Nazi Germany and the south are different, but I still think it is valid to say that flying a confederate flag in the USA should be just as distasteful as flying a Nazi flag in Germany is, also Hitler said that the way that the USA treated blacks and native Americans was a huge influence on him and his treatment of the Jewish people, so there is a direct line between our racist ways and his.
And you are right on, we are not good about talking about white privilege or racism in general even today. And with recent political groups like the tea party movement show how far we really have to go.
On a different note if you like to read American history dealing with racism, check out Sundown Towns, it is written by the same author who wrote Lies my Teacher Told Me, it opens up how the north was just as racist as the south and in fact shows that the south in some ways was more tolerant, even though it has always been portrayed as the bad guys when it comes to race relations.

_________________
" It was my dog Boycott who led me to question the right of humans to eat other sentient beings."
— Cesar Chavez


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Celebrating the Seccession Without Slaves
PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 8:04 pm 
Offline
Lactose Intolerant...Literally
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 12:21 pm
Posts: 689
Location: NC, USA
veganskater wrote:
I have nothing against the south or people from there. Nor do I think they are any less intelligent, I want to make it clear I am not trying to bash anyone, and I know that all history is white washed, I love to read history books like Lies my teacher told me and The People's history of the United States. I am only saying that we as a country need to stop making excuses for what happened and pretending it was something that it wasn't. It was about slavery first and foremost, but that isn't to say the North didn't have their issues. Also let me add that the majority of Southern people did not own slaves, but they did benefit from slavery, most poor Southerners ended up being used as cannon fodder for the rich land owners, that is an issue not really dealt with or discussed.
I understand that the cases between Nazi Germany and the south are different, but I still think it is valid to say that flying a confederate flag in the USA should be just as distasteful as flying a Nazi flag in Germany is, also Hitler said that the way that the USA treated blacks and native Americans was a huge influence on him and his treatment of the Jewish people, so there is a direct line between our racist ways and his.
And you are right on, we are not good about talking about white privilege or racism in general even today. And with recent political groups like the tea party movement show how far we really have to go.
On a different note if you like to read American history dealing with racism, check out Sundown Towns, it is written by the same author who wrote Lies my Teacher Told Me, it opens up how the north was just as racist as the south and in fact shows that the south in some ways was more tolerant, even though it has always been portrayed as the bad guys when it comes to race relations.
Maybe my organizational format came off as a little more combative than I intended. Allow me to clarify:

My initial comment about North-South relations was self-reporting from my lived experience. I was not accusing you of bashing a region of the country. (Also, thanks for the book suggestion, but my arena of intellectual interest is actually international, not the American system.)

My second comment was (what I now realize to be an implicit point) that solutions to these sorts of things are more complex than telling people to “wake up.” We agreed that societies usually aren’t very good at talking about social problems, but I was saying that public discourse about those ills does not occur without a special social ‘space’ being opened up. For example, individuals (most likely sparsely placed) throughout a society constantly seem to be calling for revolution. But do ‘radicals’ saying this in isolation necessarily stir up enough interest? No, they don’t. That’s where all that critical mass stuff comes into play. (Jimmeny Crickets, I think I love thinking sociologically!)

So, my perception is that there isn’t currently a movement proper that looks anything like the old Civil Rights Mov that took up (narrowly defined?) questions of black/white racial divisions in the U.S. Instead, there are other race(-ialized) question(ing)s of Muslims (‘Middle Eastern brown people’) or immigration debate over “Mexicans” (‘central American brown people’). And, from the Tea Party social movement I mostly just get the visual of lots of conservative white people saying they want “their country back”—I guess that means from multi culti liberals & immigrants (demanded especially by those erroneous birthers), even though they deny that they are racially motivated.
^(As an aside: Isn’t it so fascinating that the U.S./Mexico border is the only place on the globe where the ‘First’ and ‘Third’ Worlds touch? *soc sci nerd*)

Anywho, if we’re really as violent as janejellyroll implies, who knows! Maybe if ‘we’ get pissy enough about trade deficit with China some group will start threatening anyone who looks “Asian” (might as well attack anyone who looks sort of Indian too, huh? No wait, we need them in Silicon Valley…) [/jest]

Lastly, in my third comment I didn’t say our prior discussed examples weren’t systems of oppression, I said that the operational time durations were different. I think that this would affect how each post-conflict society would deal with the trauma sustained.
And of course one should draw parallels between cases! What they heck would I study otherwise? :o)

_________________
"Mine broad, crisp steak fry will smite thine meager potatoes like an axe splitting a log. For ketchup and empire!" --nickvicious
"I'm sick to death of the world not ending." --Pi_Face


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Celebrating the Seccession Without Slaves
PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 8:07 pm 
Offline
Saggy Butt
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 28, 2010 4:10 pm
Posts: 307
Location: Sacramento Ca
Fascist - Thank you. I think if you and I sat down we would have a history nerd fest of epic proportions :)

_________________
" It was my dog Boycott who led me to question the right of humans to eat other sentient beings."
— Cesar Chavez


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Celebrating the Seccession Without Slaves
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:45 am 
Offline
Making Threats to Punks Again
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2010 10:48 pm
Posts: 1137
Location: Arizona
veganskater wrote:
janejellyroll wrote:
veganskater wrote:
I think others have already covered it, but the civil war was about slavery period, the whole "states rights" stuff was all due to non slave states refusal to send slaves back to the south. It isn't about bashing the "south" but they need to wake up and stop trying to white wash their history,* they should deal with their history how Germany did with the holocaust, I mean could you imagine the outrage if nazi flags where still flying in some German states and people where defending it as part of their history and their "state rights" like some southern states do with the confederate flag (or the loser flag as I like to call it).*

*sorry I know that people don't like to bring up nazi Germany, but I think it is a valid point in the point I am making*


It isn't the people don't "like" bringing up the Nazis -- it's just that it hardly ever advances the conversation. Also, if we "deal" with our history the way the Germans did in the wake of World War II, it would mean that it would literally be illegal to fly the Confederate Flag and advocate the value of slave-holding. Is that what you'd like to see happen here?


You are right it hardly advances conversations because it is normally brought into conversations where it isn't a valid comparison, where as I think mine is a valid one, especially the question of the flying of an enemy flag on USA soil. And I am not comparing what the Nazi's did to what happened in the South, I am only saying that the reaction should have been the same as the aftermath in Germany, but seeing as the Civil War was first and most white Americans where racist regardless of where they lived, it makes sense that things happened the way they did. And to your second question, YES.


First of all, flying the National Socialist flag in Germany wouldn't be a case of the "flying of an enemy flag." I still don't see much merit to comparing the two.

Secondly, I think that sunlight is the best disinfectant for disgusting ideas. I don't think we'd be better off if it was illegal to fly the Confederate flag or advocate the value of holding slaves. I think we're better off when people can hear what racists think. I'm not willing to admit that racism is so powerful that we have to legislate against racist thoughts. What is that admitting besides we don't think we can win in a fair side-by-side of ideas?

_________________
Empathy, he once had decided, must be limited to herbivores or anyhow omnivores who could depart from a meat diet.
--Philip K. Dick


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Celebrating the Seccession Without Slaves
PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 12:50 pm 
Offline
Bought A BRAND NEW CAR!
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2010 1:47 pm
Posts: 2160
Location: Western North Carolina
Being at work I shouldn't really read all this and reply much but this duscussion always makes me think of this Indigo Girls song

[youtube]www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzcNtk3PIlA[/youtube]

I heard you sing a rebel song,
sung it loud and all alone.
We can't afford the things you save,
we can't afford the warranty.
I see you walking in the glare
down the county road we share.
Our southern blood, my heresy,
damn that ol' confederacy.

It took a long time to
become the thing I am to you.
And you won't tear it apart
without a fight, without a heart.

I'm sorry for what you have learned,
when you feel the tables turn.
To run so hard in your race,
now you find who set the pace.
The landed aristocracy
exploiting all your enmity.
All your daddies fought in vain,
leave you with the mark of Cain.

It took a long time to
become the thing I am to you.
And you won't tear it apart
without a fight, without a heart.
It took a long time to
become you, become you.

The center holds, so they say.
It never held too well for me.
I won't stop short for common ground
that vilifies the trodden down.
The center held the bonded slave
for the sake of industry.
The center held the bloody hand
of the executioner man.

It took a long time to
become the thing I am to you.
And you won't tear it apart
without a fight, without a heart.
It took a long time to
become you, become you.

_________________
Evolved a vascular system, so I went from bryophyte to lycophyte.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Celebrating the Seccession Without Slaves
PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 12:51 pm 
Offline
Bought A BRAND NEW CAR!
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2010 1:47 pm
Posts: 2160
Location: Western North Carolina
I will never know how to embed properly, apparently.

_________________
Evolved a vascular system, so I went from bryophyte to lycophyte.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Celebrating the Seccession Without Slaves
PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 1:01 pm 
Offline
Saggy Butt
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 28, 2010 4:10 pm
Posts: 307
Location: Sacramento Ca
janejellyroll - People have the right to say and think what they want, but I don't see the point or value in people flying Confederate flags. I guess if someone wants to do it in their home I wouldn't want to stop them, but in public and over public places like in some southern sates it should illegal. IMO

_________________
" It was my dog Boycott who led me to question the right of humans to eat other sentient beings."
— Cesar Chavez


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 34 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
Template made by DEVPPL/ThatBigForum and fancied up by What Cheer