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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 2:31 pm 
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Tofulish wrote:
I think this is the same point kfad is making, and reflects the concerns of third wave feminists, that the goals of "feminism" not be limited to those of upperclass, educated, white women, but be more inclusive with respect to race, social and economic class.

I am sorry you've had such a tough experience, but your post makes the point that at some point feminism needs to have a coherent definition, and it can't be one set of women seeking to deny another set of women rights that the first set doesn't approve of. And that is why Sarah Palin is not a feminist.


Confession: I'm in a thick painkiller haze and probably should not be posting in serious threads. I'm totally panicking that my last post made me appear Palin-esque.


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 2:37 pm 
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I don't know anyone that challeneges my feminism, but it broke my heart to hear my sister saying the other day that along with men not groping women, women should cover up more and basically said we have equal responsibility.


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 4:02 pm 
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Procter & Gamble.


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 4:13 pm 
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raspberrycomplaint wrote:
Procter & Gamble.
+1 yummy! (If by "challenges my feminism" you mean, "teaches me my rightful place," that is!)

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 5:29 pm 
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There is a guy at my work who constantly asks me why I have not yet gotten married to my partner. He basically said something to the effect of "why buy the cow if the milk is free?" and that my partner needs to man up and marry me. That being broke and busy grad students is no excuse and that a real man would find a way. I guess I'm just a silly woman letting myself get taken advantage of!

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 5:40 pm 
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I think my feminism is challenged everytime a female friend or aquaintance says things like "I am so fat!" "If only I lost a few pounds I would wear a bathing suit."

I am torn because I want to tell them to knock it off and love the body they have. But also I dont want to be a hypocrite because I sometimes suffer from those same thoughts.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 5:42 pm 
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Also going out to bars and seeing drunk girls dance sexy and hump one another just for the benefit of the men around them. That kinda irritates me.

Edit: Not that every female that dances sexy with other females doesnt do it for her own benefit and pleasure but sometimes it is just so obvious it is not.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 6:20 pm 
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so what are some things we can do in our everyday lives to promote feminism and equality?


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 6:23 pm 
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Almost everyone I work with. Almost every day. But I just keep working on being awesome and I stay positive when the discussions start. Because the man isn't keeping me down.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 7:29 pm 
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beforewisdom wrote:
graffitipassion wrote:
She generally focuses on the traditional in the sense that, for example:

"Things are just so bad these days with families, and if someone just stayed home with the kids instead of focusing on their careers so much than little girls wouldn't be so sexualized and men wouldn't be so effeminate".

And by "someone" she means the woman.



Has anyone gently pointed out to her the irony of that statement coming from a woman who is a corporate executive?


I think that's actually a fairly common sentiment among women in positions of power. I saw it a lot in engineering school (15% women in the good years), where a lot of the female students thought that was plenty. There seems to be this unconscious belief that once you have made it to a position of power, you're "one of the guys" and you really don't want other women to come along and compete with you (because there are so few "women" spots), or remind the guys around you that you are, in fact, not a man.


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 8:45 pm 
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graffitipassion wrote:
She generally focuses on the traditional in the sense that, for example:

"Things are just so bad these days with families, and if someone just stayed home with the kids instead of focusing on their careers so much than little girls wouldn't be so sexualized and men wouldn't be so effeminate".

And by "someone" she means the woman.

She also tells me I "emasculate" my boyfriend by attempting to split bills 50-50 with him. I'm super surprised hearing this come out a mouth of a woman who grew up in the same household as me.

All you have to do is tell her that you are pleased that she will be quitting her job once she finally finds the right man. I would also ask her if she's worried that she's emasculating potential partners by having such a masculine job. Isn't she worried that she's not feminine enough? Shouldn't she be a secretary or receptionist & leave the powerful jobs to men?

When she's good and mad, ask her if it feels nice to enjoy the benefits of feminism (her job) while spitting in it's face. It's not been that long since want ads were legally segregated by gender. If you are not a feminist, what are you? Do you honestly have an issue with equal rights for men and women? It's a very broad philosophy with liberal feminists and anarchist feminists being miles apart on many issues.

Call people out on their sexism just like you would their racism or homophobia.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 9:10 pm 
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Vantine wrote:
Call people out on their sexism just like you would their racism or homophobia.
YES!

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 9:31 pm 
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aelle wrote:
beforewisdom wrote:
graffitipassion wrote:
She generally focuses on the traditional in the sense that, for example:

"Things are just so bad these days with families, and if someone just stayed home with the kids instead of focusing on their careers so much than little girls wouldn't be so sexualized and men wouldn't be so effeminate".

And by "someone" she means the woman.



Has anyone gently pointed out to her the irony of that statement coming from a woman who is a corporate executive?


I think that's actually a fairly common sentiment among women in positions of power. I saw it a lot in engineering school (15% women in the good years), where a lot of the female students thought that was plenty. There seems to be this unconscious belief that once you have made it to a position of power, you're "one of the guys" and you really don't want other women to come along and compete with you (because there are so few "women" spots), or remind the guys around you that you are, in fact, not a man.


Do you mean that such women think they are a special exception to the rules that they think the rest of women should follow (hyprocite) ?

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 9:53 pm 
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beforewisdom wrote:
aelle wrote:
I think that's actually a fairly common sentiment among women in positions of power. I saw it a lot in engineering school (15% women in the good years), where a lot of the female students thought that was plenty. There seems to be this unconscious belief that once you have made it to a position of power, you're "one of the guys" and you really don't want other women to come along and compete with you (because there are so few "women" spots), or remind the guys around you that you are, in fact, not a man.


Do you mean that such women think they are a special exception to the rules that they think the rest of women should follow (hyprocite) ?


I don't know about "rules", but my feeling is that they realize they've acquired a bit of privilege, through skill or luck, and they don't want to share it.


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 10:53 pm 
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Today someone I'm newly acquainted with who seems generally like a pretty nice dude made a totally-out-of-left-field sexist joke and I was so stunned I couldn't think of what to say.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 11:15 pm 
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You should just say, "I don't get it." Make him explain it. Make him explain the stereotype underlying it. Act like the whole concept is weird.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 11:48 pm 
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Yeah, I can think of lots of good things to have said NOW THAT IT'S TOO LATE :(

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 12:59 am 
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L'esprit d'escalier.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 1:13 am 
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fupapack wrote:
so what are some things we can do in our everyday lives to promote feminism and equality?

I think just trying to make people see things from a different perspective. This is a vegan awareness example, not necessarily a feminist one, but a friend of mine who used to lug back glasses and glasses of milk a day recently stopped all because I told her in a non-judgmental way that cows produce milk much the same way humans do, by getting pregnant and lactating for their young. She just never thought of that at all and now she sees milk as a calf-food.
I think privilege works by rendering invisible the experience of the other, so we need to talk to people in ways which make them think differently.

That's all I got.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 10:57 am 
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People who have such an issue with the word feminist. A female friend of mine is so outspoken about how she would never call herself a feminist/doesn't care about feminism, but equality. But is very adamant about all the issues that feminism is.

Using the word croissant in a negative way.

I hate comments on a woman's appearance (whether it's positive/degrading/negative) when it has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Can't we have a conversation about something cool someone we know is doing/whatever, without you saying she's SO HOT or SO FAT when it has nothing to do with the topic at hand? I'm sure a woman didn't give an artist talk or start a band to hear that she's sexy.

Either saying something, or ignoring like it's a faux pas is the way I handle things like that.

I really want to make this into a refrigerator magnet:
Tofulish wrote:
Image


Most of the people I know who have been consistently awesome/feminist/give a fork are vegans. I don't think that's a coincidence.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 11:24 am 
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speaking of feminism

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 11:40 am 
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Vantine wrote:
All you have to do is tell her that you are pleased that she will be quitting her job once she finally finds the right man. I would also ask her if she's worried that she's emasculating potential partners by having such a masculine job. Isn't she worried that she's not feminine enough? Shouldn't she be a secretary or receptionist & leave the powerful jobs to men?

When she's good and mad, ask her if it feels nice to enjoy the benefits of feminism (her job) while spitting in it's face. It's not been that long since want ads were legally segregated by gender. If you are not a feminist, what are you? Do you honestly have an issue with equal rights for men and women? It's a very broad philosophy with liberal feminists and anarchist feminists being miles apart on many issues.

Call people out on their sexism just like you would their racism or homophobia.


I do call her out as best I can. Being my sister, she knows just what to say to frustrate me enough that I leave it alone after 30 minutes of arguing. Like I said before, she'll tell me I'm "black and white", "Why are you getting SO rilled up?!", and "you are not listening, let me talk!" She'll say these things all out of context just to get more talking time than she already has gotten (saying I'm talking too much when she's talking actually much more).

At a certain point, if you know the person and have to see them all the time, you just have to know that you tried your best and lead by example, ya know? She's knows all the things you said above, but she ignores what they mean.

The point is...I'm all for calling people out. They'll argue with you, they'll get angry with you, but the seed will be planted and hopefully they will do some serious thinking eventually!


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 12:11 pm 
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Have you ever tried drawing a line with your sister, telling her that you don't butt into her business with her partners and that you expect the same from her?

If a family member did that to me I would simply not respond. If the continued to bait me, I would explain the respect issue and then politely leave.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 12:32 pm 
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I take the "what do you do" question on a case by case basis. At work, I continue to point out that our mission should be to help all women find childbirth that is right for them. I sometimes do this multiple times a day.
When I here a blatantly sexist (or racist or homophobic or transphobic, etc.) I usually call the speaker on it. Just by asking why. Why do you feel that way, why do you think that is? In my experience, it makes them think enough to stop making those comments to me. And at least they are thinking.
I tied to write an entire thing about my sister and her anti-feminist rants and her raging racism and elitism that all come from a place I can't begin to picture. She has no idea that all of the things she derides are all of the things that allow her to have what she has. But my sister makes me crazy, so I can't articulate well.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 1:04 pm 
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graffitipassion wrote:
Vantine wrote:
All you have to do is tell her that you are pleased that she will be quitting her job once she finally finds the right man. I would also ask her if she's worried that she's emasculating potential partners by having such a masculine job. Isn't she worried that she's not feminine enough? Shouldn't she be a secretary or receptionist & leave the powerful jobs to men?

When she's good and mad, ask her if it feels nice to enjoy the benefits of feminism (her job) while spitting in it's face. It's not been that long since want ads were legally segregated by gender. If you are not a feminist, what are you? Do you honestly have an issue with equal rights for men and women? It's a very broad philosophy with liberal feminists and anarchist feminists being miles apart on many issues.

Call people out on their sexism just like you would their racism or homophobia.


I do call her out as best I can. Being my sister, she knows just what to say to frustrate me enough that I leave it alone after 30 minutes of arguing. Like I said before, she'll tell me I'm "black and white", "Why are you getting SO rilled up?!", and "you are not listening, let me talk!" She'll say these things all out of context just to get more talking time than she already has gotten (saying I'm talking too much when she's talking actually much more).

At a certain point, if you know the person and have to see them all the time, you just have to know that you tried your best and lead by example, ya know? She's knows all the things you said above, but she ignores what they mean.

The point is...I'm all for calling people out. They'll argue with you, they'll get angry with you, but the seed will be planted and hopefully they will do some serious thinking eventually!



I'm not the best person to advise you because I make my sister riled up on purpose. (It's very easy and hilarious at the same time.) If she were my sister and said things like that I would more than likely dance around her singing "hypocrite" to the tune of some children's song. (add lots of shaking and twirling). My sister believes some wacky things but makes most of the money in her household. She is, of course, married to someone who is hypermasculine.

I would also say things like "Girlfriend, you take some of that money you don't need because you are only a woman and pay half the bills! Then my boyfriend's penis will be fine and you won't feel guilty for making filthy "man's" money.
This, I realize, would not be helpful.

The best advise is really beforewisdom's - tell her that you don't want to discuss it until she recovers from whatever massive head injury caused her to believe such crazy things. (That is what he said, right?) Don't let her get under your skin. Dancing will help.

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