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 Post subject: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 4:25 pm 
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(just checking as it's such a hot topic someplaces that it's banned!)

We've got another 5+months before the bean even comes into the world, but I'm starting to think about those vax already (they start at about 8 weeks here).

Other half and I are tentatively thinking that we want to selectively vaccinate, but we're still working out which ones that would be and if it's important to do single vaccines and/or space out when they're given.

How did you all gather info about vaccinating your children? Is there anyone who decided to go neither the all or nothing routes?


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 4:28 pm 
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It has been a hot topic in the past here as well.

I think everyone makes the best decisions they can for their family.

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 4:33 pm 
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I know there was at least one long and interesting thread here on the subject. You can search for it to get a variety of opinions. There have been articles in the news stating that the British pediatrician who started the anti-vaccination scare used a small number of subjects and falsified his data.

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 4:39 pm 
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I've been shot up with everything my whole life, vaccinations (standard ones) are mandatory for the military. Growing up as a dependent, I think we had to be up to date on all of our shots as well. I've had all the regular stuff, as well as yellow fever, small pox, I think I'm on my third round of Anthrax now... (it's a series). I have heard that they are starting to give Gardasil to boys to prevent cervical cancer causing HPV strains and I think that's pretty neat. I don't think I'll have many options though as far as vaccinating or not vaccinating my child. I have read that some are better to wait till children are older though because they can cause adverse reactions in infants. If you are concerned about a particular one, I would read about it first to see if there are any long term studies on it. From what I can read, when most people in a population are immune to something, it gives "herd immunity" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_immunity

I don't really know how not vaccinating children with anything at all, including tetanus really benefits the children but it's not really my business what other people believe medically. Some things can cause problems later on like German Measles (during pregnancy). It's up to the parent in the end.


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 4:47 pm 
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dragonssister wrote:
I don't really know how not vaccinating children with anything at all, including tetanus really benefits the children


Maybe I'm misunderstanding your statement, but I think there is substantial benefit in not getting diseases that can cause complications or death.

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 4:55 pm 
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i've just read bits and bobs from here and there over the years (followed a lot of good links posted in old ppk debates), and the more i read the more confident i feel about following the regular vax schedule.

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 5:01 pm 
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I don't know what state you're in reffinej, but I live in NJ and basically if you want your child to go to any licensed day care or K-12 school your child will need specific vaccines. This list includes vaccines that prevent more than a dozen devastating childhood diseases, such as measles, mumps, rubella and Hib. New Jersey’s law provides for medical and religious exemptions from vaccination, but is moving towards a stricter enforcement of these exemptions to try and raise the vaccination rate.

Quote:
Vaccines protect communities, not just individuals. One unvaccinated child can become the means by which serious infectious diseases reach those who are too young, immune-deficient or medically compromised to be immunized. To protect everyone, high vaccination-compliance rates are necessary to achieve what epidemiologists call “herd immunity.”

According to national Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, every dollar spent on vaccination saves $18.40 on direct and indirect costs.


http://blog.nj.com/njv_guest_blog/2011/ ... _of_c.html

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 5:05 pm 
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janejellyroll wrote:
dragonssister wrote:
I don't really know how not vaccinating children with anything at all, including tetanus really benefits the children


Maybe I'm misunderstanding your statement, but I think there is substantial benefit in not getting diseases that can cause complications or death.


Obviously my reading comprehension is failing me, as I completely missed the "not" the first time I read this. Sorry!

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 5:29 pm 
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it's definitely a sensitive topic. Between the whole Schaffer autism study scandal, the FDA connections to big pharma, and the American CDC top pro-vaccine researcher being charged with money laundering it is very hard to know who to trust.

If you are thinking of selectively vaccinating there are some books published with alternate immunization schedules and the reasoning behind their suggestions. I would do your research and prioritize which diseases are most harmful to your child and what diseases they might be exposed to. Many of the immunizations are given to kids because it is easy to get kids to the doctor than adults, even though it is only adults that would be exposed to the disease (like Hepatitis vaccine given to newborn babies even though you generally only get that disease through IV drug use or as an STD). You have to weigh the pros and cons. For instance, the chicken pox vaccine causes more deaths than chicken pox does so I'm personally going to skip that one for my future children, however whooping cough can be extremely dangerous to young kids so I think it's important.

Good luck with your research.


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 5:31 pm 
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Previous vaccination thread with a lot of worthy opinions worth checking out:

Study that linked autism to vaccines was fraudulent

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 5:42 pm 
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janejellyroll wrote:
janejellyroll wrote:
dragonssister wrote:
I don't really know how not vaccinating children with anything at all, including tetanus really benefits the children


Maybe I'm misunderstanding your statement, but I think there is substantial benefit in not getting diseases that can cause complications or death.


Obviously my reading comprehension is failing me, as I completely missed the "not" the first time I read this. Sorry!


It's alright. I was looking into this recently, sort of by accident. I was trying to decide how I felt about baby girls having their ears pierced. (since I'm having a girl) I was on a forum of some sort and a woman was asked whether her baby was up to date on her shots when she went to get her ears pierced, when she told the piercer that she did not believe in it (or whatever... either way, she didn't immunize her child) the piercer tore up her application form and told her to look somewhere else for a piercer. (this was at a mall) I was like huh... people are really getting into this NO immunizations thing. I always thought that it was just for people who opposed to it for religious reasons... I actually had no idea until recently that people selectivly immunized their children or didn't immunize them at all. This is all kind of new to me. My nephew has autism so I was aware of the study, and have been following other potential links to autism as they come about.


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 5:52 pm 
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chiveggie wrote:
the chicken pox vaccine causes more deaths than chicken pox does


Do you have a source for this? I'm curious. I don't mean that in a snarky way- kids aren't routinely vaccinated against chickenpox here anyway, the fear is more in aduts getting it (or rather, shingles)

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 6:32 pm 
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Read The Panic Virus by Seth Mnookin. But only if you want to feel okay about vaccinating.

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 7:01 pm 
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Tofulish wrote:

I think everyone makes the best decisions they can for their family.



A very true statement!

Dr. Sears has "The Vaccine Book" which helped us out a lot. It breaks down every vax and gives unbiased information on ingredients, benefits, and concerns.


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 7:14 pm 
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we delayed our daughter's vaccines while i sorted through all the conflicting information i'd found. in the end, i couldn't find anything substantive to base not-vaccinating on, so we went ahead. she was 6 months when we started. so far i've done all the canadian recommended shots except flu. the canadian schedule is a bit different from the US one, so i can't speak to that.

i will say i appreciate waiting until 6 months and probably will again. tzippy does tend to be quite under the weather after her shots, and i liked not having to deal with a fussy and feverish newborn. she is just about caught up now.


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 7:37 pm 
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interrobang?! wrote:
chiveggie wrote:
the chicken pox vaccine causes more deaths than chicken pox does


Do you have a source for this? I'm curious. I don't mean that in a snarky way- kids aren't routinely vaccinated against chickenpox here anyway, the fear is more in aduts getting it (or rather, shingles)



No problem! I apologize for making a bold statement like that without citing a source. I'll have to search for the exact numbers. The deaths are still minimal for both the disease and the immunization. Disease mostly from immunocompromised and the shot from seizures and encephalitis (both listed as rare side effects by CDC and Merck). http://articles.mercola.com/sites/artic ... demic.aspx and http://www.nvic.org/vaccines-and-diseas ... facts.aspx have more information, but I'll look for a peer reviewed journal. I know I read it sometime, but for the life of me can't find it at the moment. Just strike that comment unless I can find the source, I don't want to add to the confusion.


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 8:22 pm 
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I have vaccinated my child and on schedule. I believe that FootFace vaccinated GG as well. Part of what you are doing when you vaccinate your child (beyond protecting your own child) is preventing someone else's child from catching a disease that could kill them. Infants who catch whooping cough can die. If you do a bit of research you will find that disease like whooping cough that were rare have been making a comeback due to parents not vaccinating out of fear.

An undergrad at my university died due to meningitis. They changed the rules & now you cannot live in the dorms unless you have received the meningitis vaccination.

I caught chicken pox when I was in 7th grade. I missed almost the entire school year and had sores near my eyes that made me unable to see for about one week. It was terrible.

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 9:01 pm 
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littlebird wrote:
in the end, i couldn't find anything substantive to base not-vaccinating on, so we went ahead.


this is what it came down to for me.

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 9:53 pm 
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flavabean wrote:
Tofulish wrote:

I think everyone makes the best decisions they can for their family.



A very true statement!


Sure, except that in this case it's not relevant.

When you decide not to vaccinate you aren't just making that decision for your family-- you are making that decision for MY family and for the families of everyone your non-vaccinated child comes in contact with.

There are people for whom vaccines are ineffective. Sure, if your kid picks up mumps or rubella somewhere, you can say, "Gosh, I thought I made the right decision," and there you go. But if your kid gives mumps or rubella to MY kid, when I thought I'd vaccinated him or when he's too young to vaccinate, well.

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 10:13 pm 
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We're vaccinating on schedule because the risks of not vaccinating seem to outweigh the risks of vaccinating.


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2011 7:58 am 
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*not making a statement here-just describing our family situation*
neither of my children (almost 4 and almost 3) are vaccinated. oh actually, the eldest had a couple of more holistic/naturopathic versions of a vaccine when she was about 8 months. but that's it. #3 won't be vaccinated either. we have many other families within our community who do not vaccinate their children (due to specific and various beliefs).


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2011 8:03 am 
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Measles cases reported in the U.S. are at highest level since 1996
http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2011/0 ... n_the.html

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2011 8:40 am 
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mamatafari wrote:
*not making a statement here-just describing our family situation*
neither of my children (almost 4 and almost 3) are vaccinated. oh actually, the eldest had a couple of more holistic/naturopathic versions of a vaccine when she was about 8 months. but that's it. #3 won't be vaccinated either. we have many other families within our community who do not vaccinate their children (due to specific and various beliefs).


Just out of curiosity, I'd be interested in knowing what beliefs have you make that decision. I know some people object to the thimerosol or mercury in vaccines, and the fact that some vaccines (ie hepatitis C) aren't really necessary for children (its spread by IV drug use or sex) but are given early because its easiest to get children into the doctor for shots than adults.

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2011 8:55 am 
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I'm about as pro-vaccine generally as a person gets, but there are a few things about the debate in general (not necessarily here) that always bug me.

One, the assumption that everyone who makes a nonstandard choice is doing so because of faulty information like that autism study. I'm concerned about autism but that's totally separate from any concerns I have about vaccines, and I think it's really patronizing to assume that people who choose not to vaccinate their children haven't researched this and made their own decisions on it.

Second, the whooping cough (pertussis) thing concerns me, since I'm close to having a newborn, but I haven't seen any evidence that it's unvaccinated children who are spreading it. Unfortunately the vaccine, while administered to babies, just isn't effective in them yet; their immune systems aren't developed enough. But this is something that you need a booster for (it's part of the tetanus vaccine these days), so why is the assumption that it's unvaccinated children causing a problem and not, say, adults who don't go to the doctor regularly? (I would say my husband is an exception because he's in the military and they shoot him up with any vaccine they please, but most of the 30-something guys I know? Not exactly going out and keeping up on their shots.)

Then, there seems to be this dichotomy set up between people who don't follow the CDC recommended schedule and people who "selectively vaccinate," popularly regarded as causing some sort of major epidemiological catastrophe. The thing is, everyone is vaccinating selectively to some extent. The US recommendations aren't the same as Europe's or other country's, and we're all making choices based on what we think the likelihood of benefit vs. the likelihood of harm are, it's just that some people are taking someone else's recommendations and some people are deviating from that. How many people in the US are vaccinating their kids against yellow fever? If they haven't, does that mean they don't care if their child gets yellow fever? No, it just means that it's generally accepted that the benefit of getting the vaccine is considered low compared to the costs.

Finally, I really don't like the assumption that has crept into the vaccination argument that people have a duty to create some sort of herd immunity on behalf of other people. I think it sets a bad precedent in general to say that I'm obligated to put something in my body in order to protect someone else's health.

All that said, I'll probably follow the standard US schedule, although since it's not unlikely we'll move overseas during the first year of babyk's life that's going to take some extra effort on my part, and of course I'll be regarded as an oddity abroad where I'll be deviating from their normal schedule. Fun, right?

I do have a friend who chose to have her child contract chicken pox rather than administer the varicella vaccine. Her reasons were that the vaccine wasn't yet long-term tested, and the consequences of getting it later in life, especially during pregnancy, were far worse for her daughter than just contracting chicken pox as a toddler. She looked at the information on efficacy and how long the immunity lasted (these are known a little better in Japan than elsewhere I think) and was not impressed.


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2011 9:22 am 
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annak wrote:
Finally, I really don't like the assumption that has crept into the vaccination argument that people have a duty to create some sort of herd immunity on behalf of other people. I think it sets a bad precedent in general to say that I'm obligated to put something in my body in order to protect someone else's health.


Oh?

So, if you happened to be carrying HIV, would you not bother to tell people and not bother to practice safe sex because, well, it's not YOUR obligation to protect somebody else's health?

All of us, every day, do things that we might not necessarily want to do (or refrain from doing things we'd like to do) in order to protect other people. That's part of living in a society.

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