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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2011 7:27 pm 
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2008 CDC data suggests that approximately 20% of Americans who are infected with HIV do not know they have HIV. That means approximately 80% do.
In 2005, the percentage was about 25%.

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2011 7:30 pm 
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The HIV analogy doesn't even seem necessary in this argument. Yes you have to sometimes take vaccines for the team. People who work in hospitals or doctors offices or schools do all the time. That's why they do it, so they won't get sick or make other people who are already compromised get sicker. If you're ever in public, I'd say you're obligated to do that, but me saying you're obligated to do something means as much as you want it to. It's like me saying you're obligated to wash your hands after going to the bathroom. Some people will and some people won't and most people will lie and say they have when they really haven't.

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2011 7:41 pm 
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Fee wrote:
The HIV analogy doesn't even seem necessary in this argument. Yes you have to sometimes take vaccines for the team. People who work in hospitals or doctors offices or schools do all the time. That's why they do it, so they won't get sick or make other people who are already compromised get sicker. If you're ever in public, I'd say you're obligated to do that, but me saying you're obligated to do something means as much as you want it to. It's like me saying you're obligated to wash your hands after going to the bathroom. Some people will and some people won't and most people will lie and say they have when they really haven't.


Hey, I don't know if this is addressed to me, but I always wash my hands after using a public bathroom!

Always.

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2011 7:46 pm 
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I don't think we even need to invoke the language of duty to talk about this.

I'd settle for something like "It's good to get vaccinations if you don't live on a Saint-Exupéry planet."

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2011 7:53 pm 
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There is a similar thread on Mothering.com about vaccines and autism and everyone seems to be clearly anti-vax. So yeah... Also, there is a nice chunk of blaming old mothers for the surge in autism.

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2011 8:03 pm 
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Tofulish wrote:
There is a similar thread on Mothering.com about vaccines and autism and everyone seems to be clearly anti-vax. So yeah... Also, there is a nice chunk of blaming old mothers for the surge in autism.

eeeek mothering, I read someone who "cured" their childs type 1 diabetes (autoimmune, not lifestyle-my son has it) by eating a paleo diet and everyone was cheering her on. I steer away from there for obvious reasons and I hope that kid really didn't have it or is seeing a real doctor.
have any parents her received boosters lately? I know I haven't and don't know anyone besides my husband who was in the military has. According to this http://www2.cdc.gov/nip/adultImmSched/ I need the mmr, seasonal flu, and Tdap.


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2011 8:07 pm 
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Tofulish wrote:
There is a similar thread on Mothering.com about vaccines and autism and everyone seems to be clearly anti-vax. So yeah... Also, there is a nice chunk of blaming old mothers for the surge in autism.

Even after their "hero" was found to have falsified his data? Even after they lost in the vaccination courts?

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2011 8:12 pm 
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aelle wrote:

I believe that in Western Europe, at least when I was a kid, the assumption was that enough kids contracted chicken pox to create herd immunity and protect the adults from shingles. In the US, the herd immunity would be achieved by vaccinating.


I was researching the chicken pox vaccine recently because I never had the chicken pox as a kid and never received the vaccine as an adult. I had bloodwork done and it showed I have immunity to it. Must have had it without knowing, but anyway, I thought this article was interesting. It's a little old, but apparently the vaccine may not provide lasting immunity. Adults' lack of exposure to kids sick with the chicken pox no longer boosts immunity as it did when the herd wasn't vaccinated.

I think vaccines are important, but I do wonder if the chicken pox vaccine is necessary.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/03/health/03vaccine.html


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2011 9:40 pm 
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Vantine wrote:
Tofulish wrote:
There is a similar thread on Mothering.com about vaccines and autism and everyone seems to be clearly anti-vax. So yeah... Also, there is a nice chunk of blaming old mothers for the surge in autism.

Even after their "hero" was found to have falsified his data? Even after they lost in the vaccination courts?


The mothering.com forums are intensely and willfully divorced from reality, and actively discourage any dissent.

Incidentally, I also don't think that the chicken pox vaccine is particularly useful in early childhood.

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2011 9:41 pm 
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mothering.com seems like a parody to me.

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2011 5:39 am 
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mamatafari wrote:
*not making a statement here-just describing our family situation*
neither of my children (almost 4 and almost 3) are vaccinated. oh actually, the eldest had a couple of more holistic/naturopathic versions of a vaccine when she was about 8 months. but that's it. #3 won't be vaccinated either. we have many other families within our community who do not vaccinate their children (due to specific and various beliefs).


same here. except, one unvaccinated child and one on the way.


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2011 6:28 am 
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guys, lets not get off topic again. mothering.com has sections that encourage some behavior that i consider unwise, but the whole forum is not terrible. basically, i don't go there (and never would) for health or medical information, but there are some areas i've found very informative and useful.

anyway, i really like you guys, footface and solipsistnation, but i don't think this topic needs sarcasm.


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2011 7:55 am 
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Vantine wrote:
Tofulish wrote:
There is a similar thread on Mothering.com about vaccines and autism and everyone seems to be clearly anti-vax. So yeah... Also, there is a nice chunk of blaming old mothers for the surge in autism.

Even after their "hero" was found to have falsified his data? Even after they lost in the vaccination courts?


Here is a new study cited on Mothering.com showing that Hepatitis B Vaccine Triples the Risk of Autism in Infant Boys, in support of not vaccinating. It is from 2009, but it makes interesting points.

I agree that we shouldn't be bashing mothering.com, but I think its interesting that there is such strong support for not vaccinating on an internet group composed of people who are in the process of making these decisions.

I am pretty much sure I'm going to vaccinate our child on schedule, but the Hep B vaccine seems like one I would wait on, given that I don't have Hep B and it is spread through sexual contact and drug use and at least for the first few years of my child's life I hope that won't be an issue. ::knocks wood::

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2011 8:29 am 
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littlebird wrote:
anyway, i really like you guys, footface and solipsistnation, but i don't think this topic needs sarcasm.


I haven't been sarcastic.

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2011 9:14 am 
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FootFace wrote:
littlebird wrote:
anyway, i really like you guys, footface and solipsistnation, but i don't think this topic needs sarcasm.


I haven't been sarcastic.


Me neither.

(It's a speech impediment.)

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2011 10:07 am 
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Just to clarify again, I just wanted to make a statement because I don't feel like receiving any sarcastic replies or ones that may seem a bit demeaning simply because people do not agree. If you want to learn what a holistic/naturopathic form of a vaccine is, please research it :)


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2011 10:24 am 
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As far as I can tell from a quick googling, "naturopathic vaccine" is synonymous with "homeopathic nosode". Is that correct?

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2011 10:24 am 
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A quick google tells me that apparently, holistic vaccination involves such things as giving Lathyrus sativus, a legume, in place of the oral polio vaccine.

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2011 10:39 am 
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just mumbles wrote:
As far as I can tell from a quick googling, "naturopathic vaccine" is synonymous with "homeopathic nosode". Is that correct?


I did try to research what it meant and I couldn't find anything except stuff about homeopathic nosodes. The (pro-homeopathic) article I read said that homeopathic practitioners were divided on the effectiveness of the "naturopathic vaccines." I am not being sarcastic at all when I say that if you can't convince a believer in homeopathy that there might be something to your treatment, then you are really grasping at straws.

It ought to be illegal to refer to something as a vaccine when it doesn't represent a vaccination in the slightest way. And I'm not a person who throws the term "it ought to be illegal" around frequently.

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2011 10:41 am 
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Yeah, Lathyrus sativus is apparently what homeopaths use to prevent polio--a nosode is a homeopathic preventative.

So I guess a holistic or naturopathic vaccine is a nosode.

Seems like a bad idea to take a preventative that we have no reason to believe does anything at all instead of one that has been shown to be efficacious. I'm also unclear on what kind of principled or religious objection allows for homeopathic preventative but not a conventional one.

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2011 10:41 am 
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A different take on the Hepatitis B vaccine link to autism:

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2009/10/some_monkey_business_in_autism_research_1.php

It's a long piece, but this was interesting:

Quote:
Another question that needs to be asked. Why did the investigators look at thimerosal-containing hepatitis B vaccination? There's no thimerosal in the hepatitis B vaccine anymore and hasn't been since 2001. In fact, if you read the methods section of the paper, you'll see that Hewitson et al added thimerosal to Recombivax HB (Merck) in order to recreate that thimerosal feeling from the 1990s. Why would they do that? Especially since the authors state in the conclusion that the study design "was not able to determine whether it was the vaccine per se, the exposure to thimerosal, or a combination of both, that caused these effects.

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2011 10:42 am 
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mamatafari wrote:
Just to clarify again, I just wanted to make a statement because I don't feel like receiving any sarcastic replies or ones that may seem a bit demeaning simply because people do not agree. If you want to learn what a holistic/naturopathic form of a vaccine is, please research it :)


Hey, come on. You mentioned holistic/naturopathic vaccines. I asked what they were. And now you're just going to say, "Go look it up if you want to know"?

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2011 10:52 am 
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How fitting: Just got this emailed to me from a friend who knows I'm interested in looking into this stuff. Apparently based on some research presented to the WHO, the CDC is going to reevaluate some of the vaccines and their safety (especially the risks of combining several into one shot)

article with research links attached:
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/artic ... udies.aspx

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/00_pdf ... Nov-10.pdf


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2011 10:55 am 
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FootFace wrote:
mothering.com seems like a parody to me.


(((giggling)))

i essentially do whatever my pediatrician suggests, unless it involves eating animals or animal byproducts. i trust him and the other qualified peds and ped nps, and ped nurses because they went to medical school to study all of this stuff and want to help me raise healthy kids. i went to art school, and at best can draw a picture of a virus with a thought bubble. i studied the color wheel and degas.

i could not live with myself if one of my children died or was permanently disabled from a disease that could have been prevented, or gave that disease to another child.

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2011 10:59 am 
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I've never read Mothering Magazine. Several times over the years they have done soy scaremongering or anti-vegan articles. I've seen articles from various vegans answering them back. The quality of arguments on both sides has prejudiced me against accepting the views of Mothering Magazine right off the bat.

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