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 Post subject: Pre-eclampsia, Toxemia, the Brewer Diet and Protein
PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 6:15 pm 
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Semen Strong
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So as part of the Bradley Method we had to watch a 70's video with Dr. Brewer who droned on pointlessly about how if you don't eat enough protein you are going to kill your baby and maybe die as well. OHNOES! If you don't eat 80-100g of protein, you are in trouble.

But I can't find any scientific articles that link protein consumption with pre-eclampsia, toxemia, eclampsia,or HELLP. Instead, it seems like there is evidence linking it to folic acid consumption(http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 113752.htm), genetics (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 134037.htm), age, diabetes, etc. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 122343.htm

So is the protein connection just complete bunk?

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 Post subject: Re: Pre-eclampsia, Toxemia, the Brewer Diet and Protein
PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 6:17 pm 
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80-100g?! I can't even comprehend trying to eat that much in a day. Can that much even be absorbed?

Back when I had to get 65g each day right after my gastric bypass, even slugging back protein shakes three-four times a day, it was hard.

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 Post subject: Re: Pre-eclampsia, Toxemia, the Brewer Diet and Protein
PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 6:23 pm 
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Semen Strong
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Good point. I asked about that (because literally it is 2x the protein I would need and Tofetus is only 10 inches and change long) and was told yes because I'm building her tissues and my placenta etc etc etc. I didn't have enough info to call bullshiitake in front of a group of people nodding in agreement though.

You can get that amount of protein, esp if you eat seitan. 1/4 of a field roast has 31g, so that plus a builder bar (20g) and a protein shake (20g) plus sundry protein will get you up there. Can it be absorbed? Is it good for your kidneys to have to be dealing with increased urinary output and disposal of excess protein? I don't know.

She didn't even give me the nutrition sheet after I rolled my eyes hard at the woman who is craving 1/2lb of bacon a night. Yeah, because nitrates are great for your baby.

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 Post subject: Re: Pre-eclampsia, Toxemia, the Brewer Diet and Protein
PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 6:27 pm 
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After my surgery, we were told (by our surgeon and dietician) not to eat more than 20g of protein in one sitting because anything beyond that probably wouldn't be absorbed.

How did I never realize how high in protein seitan is?

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 Post subject: Re: Pre-eclampsia, Toxemia, the Brewer Diet and Protein
PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 6:32 pm 
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So interesting! Though obvs your gut and mine are different - I haz pregnancy gut, which means my digestion is slowed for peak absorbing performance. But, seitan and other processed analogues tend to be heavier on the sodium, which is linked to pre-eclampsia et al.

My Bradley instructor had another vegan that managed 90g a day in seitan etc, but her midwives and MDs were concerned that she was gaining too much weight (another risk of pre-eclampsia).

I just want to find evidence one way or the other, because for Frodo, I really want to call bullshiitake.

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 Post subject: Re: Pre-eclampsia, Toxemia, the Brewer Diet and Protein
PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 6:35 pm 
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And my gut is even weirder because of my surgery. I'm pretty sure the 20g at a time guideline is true for most people under ordinary circumstances though.

What are the usual protein guidelines for pregnancy?

I bet IDJI will have some good information if she reads this thread.

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 Post subject: Re: Pre-eclampsia, Toxemia, the Brewer Diet and Protein
PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 6:39 pm 
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True! we need an IDJI or chipmunk or other expertknowhower up in this!

According to some sites its 25g extra and this one says 10g extra...
http://www.becomehealthynow.com/article/proteins/1126

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 Post subject: Re: Pre-eclampsia, Toxemia, the Brewer Diet and Protein
PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 6:43 pm 
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If you search "quackwatch" and "Brewer diet" they come up together fairly frequently. I don't know the science and all these numbers confuse my addled mind, but it doesn't seem like the hard evidence is there.


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 Post subject: Re: Pre-eclampsia, Toxemia, the Brewer Diet and Protein
PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 7:28 pm 
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Ugh. This was the worst thing by far about my Bradley birth class. I remember checking some of the references cited in a video the instructor showed, and they were all quite outdated and probably quite irrelevant. I didn't save any of these references though, so I'm not much help....


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 Post subject: Re: Pre-eclampsia, Toxemia, the Brewer Diet and Protein
PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 7:33 pm 
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There was so much wrong with the video! Like the fact that he kept going on about how milk has Vit D etc - yeah, because its fortified, and about how basically there were no other causes for pre-e etc than poor nutrition and no one would ever have to die of HELLP etc if they just ate right. Blaming moms with bad science.

And I hated going around a circle talking about our favorite foods and it just sounds like most people were eating cheese, eggs and bacon and then congratulating themselves for doing the right thing for baby. And of course there was the inevitable comment about "I knew this one woman who was veg until her preg and then she just couldn't get enough protein..... so she stopped." I shot her the deathglare and said I had tons of veg friends who did just fine on a vegan diet (thank you PPK <3 ).

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 Post subject: Re: Pre-eclampsia, Toxemia, the Brewer Diet and Protein
PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 7:37 pm 
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Don't you love how for things people don't like it only takes ONE person they sorta kinda maybe know to prove their point?

But for YOU to prove your case, you would have to trot out at least a few dozen people that you see daily and have known their families back through 5 generations?

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 Post subject: Re: Pre-eclampsia, Toxemia, the Brewer Diet and Protein
PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 7:44 pm 
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I am certainly no expert, but there is no way I ate anything close to that much protein when I was pregnant. Because I'm gluten-free, I had to rely on a lot of soy, beans, seeds, and nuts. I did not count grams, I just ate as much protein with each meal and snack as I could reasonably include. Without seitan, you couldn't get close to 80 grams of protein unless you were shoveling hemp seeds into your mouth nonstop. I gained 35 pounds, had no complications, and my kid is healthy (and huge).


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 Post subject: Re: Pre-eclampsia, Toxemia, the Brewer Diet and Protein
PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 7:47 pm 
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mittenmacher wrote:
I gained 35 pounds, had no complications, and my kid is healthy (and Awesome).


I love Walter <3 Now I need pictures.

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 Post subject: Re: Pre-eclampsia, Toxemia, the Brewer Diet and Protein
PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 8:05 pm 
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I'm choosing not to worry about this, although I just looked at the ADA's position on this and it was .5 grams for every pound of your ideal pre pregnancy weight plus 25 grams, which for a 135 lb woman would be about 93 grams.

Pre-pregnancy I was following Dr. fuhrman's ETL philosophy and he thinks protein requirements are too high. He can be intense and quackish, but I do think as long as you are eating plenty of whole plant foods, including nuts and seeds, you'll be fine. Increasing your calories increases your protein.

My doctor specifically said to try to eat calcium rich foods, and I have been adding a lot more tempeh after noticing that it is rich in protein, calcium, and iron. The pregnancy nutrition trifecta! Oh, and maybe making your own seitan could help control the sodium?

Sorry those people in your class are annoying. I hope the class gets better


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 Post subject: Re: Pre-eclampsia, Toxemia, the Brewer Diet and Protein
PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 8:13 pm 
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They are actually all really nice, funny and smart, and I like the instructor a lot. Its just the nutrition that seems to out of line for me.

I used this and got just under 60g:
http://www.healthizen.com/pregnancy/cal ... lator.aspx

But even so, I still can't see any articles showing connections between protein and pre-e, etc.

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 Post subject: Re: Pre-eclampsia, Toxemia, the Brewer Diet and Protein
PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 8:18 pm 
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i can tell you as a midwifery student that the research that's been presented to me still does not come to any conclusion as to the cause of preeclampsia. the only risk factor i was taught is having had at least one child already and developing preeclampsia during a pregnancy with a new male partner, which would indicate a genetic cause (as in, there may be a paternal factor). i thought that was pretty interesting.

i was a research subject recently in a study on preeclampsia (as a healthy control) and they're looking at genetic factors that may predispose some women to developing it, so i assume the most current hypothesis is that the cause is likely genetic.


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 Post subject: Re: Pre-eclampsia, Toxemia, the Brewer Diet and Protein
PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 8:24 pm 
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Thanks mooo! As you're being trained in midwifery, would you mind telling me how much protein you generally have your patients consume?

The 2011 article I linked above said this:

Quote:
In a study published in the January issue of The American Journal of Pathology, the VCU team reported a significant increase in an enzyme called MMP-1 in blood vessels of women with preeclampsia and an imbalance in collagen-regulating genes that favored the breakdown of collagen. MMP-1 is an enzyme produced in tissues under conditions of inflammation that acts to break down collagen. "The increase in MMP-1 that we found would compromise the integrity of the mother's blood vessels, which could explain two of the clinical symptoms of preeclampsia -- edema and proteinuria," said corresponding author Scott Walsh, Ph.D., professor in the VCU Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology.

The swelling experienced by pregnant women with preeclampsia is due to edema, which is a leakage of protein out of the blood vessels into surrounding tissues. Proteinuria is a leakage of protein through the blood vessels of the kidney and into the urine. The team also found that MMP-1 causes blood vessel contraction by activation of a receptor known as PAR1, which according to Walsh, could explain the hypertension, or high blood pressure, of women with preeclampsia.

"This finding may be especially important for preeclampsia because we found increased amounts of PAR1 in blood vessels of preeclamptic women as compared to normal pregnant women. MMP-1 activation of PAR1 is a totally new mechanism to explain hypertension," Walsh said. PAR1 is best known for its role in the coagulation of blood, but it is not known for a role in hypertension, said Walsh. Further, the team showed that neutrophils, or white blood cells, and neutrophil products increase MMP-1 and PAR1. According to Walsh, neutrophil infiltration may be the cause of the increase in MMP-1 and PAR1 in blood vessels that leads to vessel dysfunction and clinical symptoms of preeclampsia. "Activation of the PAR1 receptor by MMP-1 causes changes in the endothelial cells of blood vessels that we speculated could result in contraction of blood vessels. This new information provides a rationale for the use of PAR1 inhibitors to treat preeclampsia," said Walsh

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 Post subject: Re: Pre-eclampsia, Toxemia, the Brewer Diet and Protein
PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 9:15 pm 
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The new nutrition book by Jack Norris and Ginny Messina says your regular protein needs + 25g. It also says there's some evidence that preeclampsia is less common in vegan women.


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 Post subject: Re: Pre-eclampsia, Toxemia, the Brewer Diet and Protein
PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 10:07 pm 
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You know, I just ate what I wanted, took a children's vitamin because pre-natals made me vomit and have no idea how much I gained.
During my pregnancy I had zero problems, missed one day of work and had a very healthy baby. I think that many problems are genetic and that there are limited things that a mother can do to prevent them. Toby was huge because babies on my father's side are huge. (Dad was 13 lbs).

If I were conspiracy minded I would say that there is a conspiracy to make mothers believe than any and all problems with their pregnancy and/or baby are their fault.

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 Post subject: Re: Pre-eclampsia, Toxemia, the Brewer Diet and Protein
PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 10:20 pm 
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Vantine wrote:
If I were conspiracy minded I would say that there is a conspiracy to make mothers believe than any and all problems with their pregnancy and/or baby are their fault.


<3 The terrorism of the myth of the perfect child. <3

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 Post subject: Re: Pre-eclampsia, Toxemia, the Brewer Diet and Protein
PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 8:26 am 
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I've started to track what I'm eating recently because I have hit the STARVING ALL THE TIME part of pregnancy and am wondering if I'm missing some nutrient. It is surprising to me to find that I am ingesting 60-70g of protein most days without a big hassle (though I am grazing all day long).

My sister ate a LOT of protein while she was pregnant with her last kid-- probably about 100g/day-- and still got pre-eclampsia. Either this is a total mysterious mystery of science, ooooor there are factors at play other than protein/nutrition. (Look! My one story proves everything!)

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 Post subject: Re: Pre-eclampsia, Toxemia, the Brewer Diet and Protein
PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 9:18 am 
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Tofulish wrote:
There was so much wrong with the video! Like the fact that he kept going on about how milk has Vit D etc - yeah, because its fortified, and about how basically there were no other causes for pre-e etc than poor nutrition and no one would ever have to die of HELLP etc if they just ate right. Blaming moms with bad science.


Uh, I had HELLP my last pregnancy. I was still omni at the time and therefore probably eating closer to their idea of "right".

Everything I've read and heard about HELLP seemed to indicate that they don't know what causes it!


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 Post subject: Re: Pre-eclampsia, Toxemia, the Brewer Diet and Protein
PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 9:54 am 
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Tofulish wrote:
Vantine wrote:
If I were conspiracy minded I would say that there is a conspiracy to make mothers believe than any and all problems with their pregnancy and/or baby are their fault.


<3 The terrorism of the myth of the perfect child. <3

this is what i've been thinking every time i see this thread.

all i want to add is that we chose the perinatal cardiologist/surgeon who operated on my daughter based purely on the fact that his very first interaction with us consisted of (before even hello, introductions, anything) "You do realize that NOTHING that you ate, NOTHING that you did, NOTHING had anything to do with this, right? And anyone who tells you that is full of crepe." He was worth his weight in gold.

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 Post subject: Re: Pre-eclampsia, Toxemia, the Brewer Diet and Protein
PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 10:14 am 
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yeah, i ate a pretty low protein diet with tzippy. i was mega picky all the way through, too much seitan really bothers my tummy and i had a hard enough time even getting up the energy to cook anything, let alone obsessing over whether i was getting 80g or whatever of protein. of course, i ended up with a preterm low weight infant (although actually very high weight for her gestational age), so i probably shouldn't talk, but i didn't get pre-e!

i really don't think that enough pregnant women are getting a low enough protein level in their diets to prove this at all... i mean the typical north american diet (even a "healthy" SAD) is hardly lacking in protein. most omnis eat an animal protein with every meal.


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 Post subject: Re: Pre-eclampsia, Toxemia, the Brewer Diet and Protein
PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 10:18 am 
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torque wrote:
Tofulish wrote:
Vantine wrote:
If I were conspiracy minded I would say that there is a conspiracy to make mothers believe than any and all problems with their pregnancy and/or baby are their fault.


<3 The terrorism of the myth of the perfect child. <3

this is what i've been thinking every time i see this thread.

all i want to add is that we chose the perinatal cardiologist/surgeon who operated on my daughter based purely on the fact that his very first interaction with us consisted of (before even hello, introductions, anything) "You do realize that NOTHING that you ate, NOTHING that you did, NOTHING had anything to do with this, right? And anyone who tells you that is full of crepe." He was worth his weight in gold.


also, +1 to that. it is so hard to get over blaming yourself for everything that goes wrong with your child. when tzippy was born (and even now!) i got all sorts of niggling little thoughts about how if i'd eaten more *something* or hadn't exercised as much, or exercised more, or taken more vitamins or something, this wouldn't have happened.


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