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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 9:43 am 
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Mamatafari, I'd like to respond to your post, but it really doesn't make any sense to me.

The children at issue are American kids that either went over there with their parents as tourists, to visit family or to do missionary work. For the first group (as someone who has been to Kenya often), the package hotels don't seem dangerous, but people miss that it is still a risk, because there are still measles outbreaks that happen there (though the public health officials are trying hard to get them under control). http://allafrica.com/stories/201104270067.html I personally wouldn't take my child to Kenya until she is old enough to be fully vaccinated.

And I don't see how anyone's post is racist, or what waterborne illnesses have to do with this discussion.

CDC wrote:
Measles overseas
Western Europe has seen several thousands of cases of measles this year, a substantial increase over previous years.
Measles continues to be widespread in Asia, Southeast Asia, the South Pacific, and Africa.


http://wwwnc.cdc.gov/travel/page/measle ... velers.htm

ETA: this is the first I've seen you on since the birth of your baby! Hope you're all doing nicely!

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 9:49 am 
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Measles is one of the most easily transmitted diseases. The virus can be transmitted through breathing alone. Let's also remember that this infected, unvaccinated child has put two other children in the hospital, one in serious condition.

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 9:51 am 
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mamatafari wrote:
Actually most children who are dying in various African counties die not of diseases. Cannot generalize a whole CONTINENT for outbreaks here and there. Most deaths are due to water that is not drinkable that people are drinking. What would make you think that it is completely necessary to go to any African country vaccinated? Especially when the vaccines that are used in one country may not be able to defend one against an illness in another country as they may be different strains. These are ridiculous statements and somewhat racist/ignorant. malaria is a different story and CAN be treated naturally. But many of the old remedies have been forgotten.

If the child went to Africa with a measles vaccine, someone else's children might not be in the hospital right now. That would be very much different. Facts are facts.

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 10:14 am 
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fezza wrote:
Firstly, no one suggested that measles was a main cause of death in Africa, but if infected people travel without vaccinations they can cause outbreaks, which can increase the death rates. Many local children, and adults, may not have the resources to fund the medical treatment needed. Vaccinations are recommended when travelling to many countries, including African countries.
Exactly. I see it as a matter of being responsible citizens, who share a world. We have friends who recently spent about a month in Zambia, and they were actually required to prove that they were up to date on a number of vaccinations; their ten year old had to have a few new ones as well (meningitis and Hep A, as I recall).

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 10:29 am 
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(This is not aimed at Tofulish, who I think was just pointing out that measles is scary, I totally agree with that)

Um, the article said the children involved were unvaccinated 12 and 15 month olds, right? The minimum age for MMR vaccine (1st dose) is 12 months, the recommended timeline from the CDC is 12-15 months, and the second dose is at 4 years. So these children's parents are not necessarily deliberately deciding not to vaccinate, they could just not have made it to that particular part of the vaccination schedule yet.

Personally I am planning to do MMR as soon as I can, but the assumption here seems to be that some parents are deliberately withholding vaccines from their children and I don't see any evidence of that when they're basically both still in the window of when those vaccines would normally be administered. And even if they had the first dose on schedule, they wouldn't be considered fully vaccinated for another few years. So I think yet again this hasn't really demonstrated that the (relatively few) deliberate non-vaccinators are singlehandedly causing these disease outbreaks.


Reference:
Vaccination schedule for US children: http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/recs/schedu ... ule-pr.pdf


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 10:34 am 
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i think the 12 mo and 15 mo old were just among those affected not the ones starting the outbreak.


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 10:41 am 
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Good grief. It's racist to suggest that traveling to Africa without the recommended vaccines is unwise or even dangerous? Talk about looking hard to try to find something to be offended about. Especially since a particular case involving Africa was being discussed.

Pretty much any travel to new parts of the world requires (for visas) or recommends various vaccines. This is just common sense: different parts of the world have different vulnerabilities. I have no doubt that there are things recommended for people traveling to the US from various places.

Why do you suppose tourists can get sick from ice cubes in restaurants in Mexico yet the locals are just fine?

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 10:43 am 
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littlebird wrote:
i think the 12 mo and 15 mo old were just among those affected not the ones starting the outbreak.


Here's the excerpt: "The two new cases of measles in Dakota County are also linked to travel to Kenya and also involve unvaccinated children, a 12-month-old and a 15-month-old" So I interpreted that as these being the unvaxed children in question, at least in the most recent outbreak (it does mention an earlier one started by an unvaxed child of unmentioned age).


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 10:48 am 
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The MMR can be given as early as 6 months. Read more here:

Quote:
The 12-month-old that’s in critical condition became ill in early August shortly after returning from Kenya where measles is currently endemic. The child was likely infectious from Aug. 4 through Aug. 17. A 15-month old became ill after visiting the family of the first child and is also hospitalized.



http://www.co.dakota.mn.us/Departments/ ... mation.htm

http://www.health.state.mn.us/news/pres ... 81911.html

The disease can be transmitted for up to four days before the rash appears and for four days afterwards.

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 10:54 am 
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Thanks, Vantine. That's interesting. We may be moving to Europe when my daughter is ~9 months old, give or take, and it's good to know that I can get the first dose of MMR before heading over there. I think I may opt to do this, since it seems like it's becoming very common in France and Switzerland (I think?). We'll be going to the Netherlands, but may travel around while there.

Has anyone else moved vaccines up in response to fears about this kind of thing? I'm curious, I've generally only heard of people trying to spread the schedule out more, but I have one friend who got her son vaccinated for MMR at 11 months because they were traveling to another US state where there was a recent outbreak.


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 10:58 am 
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Annak, here's some information for international travelers-
http://wwwnc.cdc.gov/travel/notices/in- ... easles.htm

Quote:
Outbreak Information
France and Europe

In France, more than 7,500 cases have been reported from January through March 2011 (as of April 19, 2011).

Cases have been reported from 38 countries across the region, including outbreaks in Spain, Serbia, Macedonia, and Turkey, among others. More than 10,000 cases and 4 deaths have been reported from countries in the European Economic Area (as of May 12, 2011).
Africa

Nigeria: 29,871 suspected cases in 2011, 122 deaths so far in 2011 (as of April 22, 2011). The state of Bauchi has been most affected, with 17,300 cases, although a total of 22 states in the country have reported measles activity.

The Democratic Republic of Congo has also reported heightened measles activity since August 2010. In January and February 2011, more than 16,000 suspected cases and 107 deaths were reported.

Travelers to Europe, Africa, and Asia have been sources of imported cases in the United States. Particular hotspots may come and go, but all travelers should protect themselves by being vaccinated.


I think that it might be a good idea to talk to your doctor about vaccinating early.

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 11:00 am 
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The original case, the Hennepin county one where 20 kids got measles, was traced back to a 30 month old who was old enough to be vaccinated but wasn't, according to the CDC. But that's unrelated to the one with the 12 month old and the 15 month old.

Our pediatrician, who generally advocates a delayed schedule of vaccinations, told us in one of our very first appointments that if we were going to take our son abroad to certain countries, he strongly recommended we get him vaccinated for certain things ahead of schedule. (I think he gave us a list; the only one I can recall is Mexico, and I think the suggested vax was Hep B, which we didn't do at birth.) If I were going to a country where there was a known endemic of anything (and measles is endemic lots of places other than Kenya; this is not a race issue), I would definitely want to have my kid vaccinated first if at all possible.

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 11:05 am 
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I can't think of any reason that is worth the risk of taking an unprotected child abroad (apart from having to move), even if it's because of age.


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 11:12 am 
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coldandsleepy wrote:
The original case, the Hennepin county one where 20 kids got measles, was traced back to a 30 month old who was old enough to be vaccinated but wasn't, according to the CDC. But that's unrelated to the one with the 12 month old and the 15 month old.

Our pediatrician, who generally advocates a delayed schedule of vaccinations, told us in one of our very first appointments that if we were going to take our son abroad to certain countries, he strongly recommended we get him vaccinated for certain things ahead of schedule. (I think he gave us a list; the only one I can recall is Mexico, and I think the suggested vax was Hep B, which we didn't do at birth.) If I were going to a country where there was a known endemic of anything (and measles is endemic lots of places other than Kenya; this is not a race issue), I would definitely want to have my kid vaccinated first if at all possible.

My pediatrician said that if we were going to spend lots of time on the west coast, we should have Toby vaccinated for Hep B. I didn't ask why at the time because I wasn't going to the west coast.

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 11:30 am 
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Im personally more concerned w/ animal ingredients in vaccines that adverse reactions. Though on a whole it still seems best to get at last the standard vaccination schedule, though I can understand those who selectively vaccinate as well but that all depends on which ones. I don't feel that boycott politics really work with vaccines and replacement plant-based and other forms of vaccines are already in the works. Also as others noted Andrew Wakefield was not just a quack, he committed outright fraud and medical malpractice.

It might be interesting to note that some have taken their anti-vax crepe to the limit
Quote:
In a recent article in the Daily Mail, Catherine O’Driscoll is taking the anti-vax propaganda to a new level. She is worried that vaccines are making puppies autistic.


Ive written about that and more on the issue of vaccines in this post on my blog
Vaccines, Vegans, & Autistic Puppies, Oh My! By skepticalvegan

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 11:30 am 
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Annak, the CDC recommends that if children are travelling:
Quote:
The MMR vaccine can be given to infants as young as six months of age if they will be traveling out of the United States, especially if going to an area with high rates of measles. Children who are at least 12 months old should get two doses of MMR, separated by at least 28 days.

So if you felt it necessary, it sounds like your pediatrician could give her her first shot at 6 months (the reason they give the booster is that in 2 -5% of cases the initial vax isn't enough to give immunity) or delay your move until she is a year and then give her both shots separated by at least 28 days.
http://pediatrics.about.com/od/childhoo ... health.htm

And thanks for giving me the benefit of the doubt! My only interest was to point out how fast this disease can spread and that "herd immunity" isn't going to protect everyone. Its interesting, but I've seen posts on birth boards saying measles isn't a serious childhood disease, and I think people just don't remember how dangerous it can be or how fast it can spread. Here is a breakdown of all the cases in the US:
http://pediatrics.about.com/od/measles/ ... breaks.htm

And to Fezza's point, I remember reading that Mexico had its first outbreak of measles in 4 years, http://www.france24.com/en/20110722-mex ... ddler-case. It was traced back to a French toddler (18 months) traveling as a tourist.

Finally, I found it really interesting that the hospitals in our area, including the one I am giving birth at, at offering all new parents a tetanus and pertussis shot after their babies are born, because there have been two local outbreaks of pertussis linked to the fact that the vax doesn't provide lifelong immunity, so many people think they are protected but aren't. Hospitals are suggesting that grandparents and others who will be in contact with your baby also get the shot to protect your child from getting it.

ETA:: SkepticalVegan, conflating vegans with anti-vaxers on your blog isn't helpful to veganism. As a very wise woman once said "If veganism=woo, then veganism ends up losing." You say :

Quote:
Unfortunately while researching this post I came upon a shocking number of vegans citing the misinformation about mercury and “toxins” as a reason they choose not to vaccinate.


There really is no reason to imply that vegans are more likely to be misinformed than omnis. Just go to Babycenter if you want to see a ton of omnis who really believe that vaccines are dangerous.

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 11:48 am 
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It's it a bit problematic to just lump all of Africa together? The measles outbreak in the linked article was traced back to a child that traveled to Kenya specifically.


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 11:51 am 
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janejellyroll wrote:
jogirl wrote:
fezza wrote:
Who the hell thinks it's a good idea to take unvaccinated children to Africa?!

This! Whatever one's position on vaccination of children, this is somewhat unbelievable.


My jaw, literally, dropped when I read this. That seems like a criminal level of child endangerment to me.


THIS is what I was reacting to. Sorry to everyone else.
Yes, this can be construed as extremely ignorant and racist. And *where* in Africa are they referring to as there are many countries within this continent.
Sorry-not meant towards any or anything else.


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 11:53 am 
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Tofulish wrote:
ETA: this is the first I've seen you on since the birth of your baby! Hope you're all doing nicely!


I'm doing great thanks for asking :) 3 children 4 and under is a bit tough, but with 2 parents at home (about 98%) of the time, things are much easier. Pop's at home on parental leave till April, but we got caught in a bit of a snag, and he may go to work p/t-which is better than f/t plus the p/t work he was doing..


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 12:01 pm 
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mamatafari wrote:
THIS is what I was reacting to. Sorry to everyone else.
Yes, this can be construed as extremely ignorant and racist. And *where* in Africa are they referring to as there are many countries within this continent.
Sorry-not meant towards any or anything else.


So other than just tossing out there that three people you don't even know are "extremely ignorant and racist," it isn't "meant towards any or anything else."

Well, that's nice.

Meanwhile, children actually get sick and die when vaccinations are withheld.

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 12:05 pm 
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Guys, let's discuss this nicely. No accusations or insults, please!

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 12:05 pm 
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Sure, why stick to the true meaning of racism when you can water it down to use it as an insult. Nothing to do with being anti-vac and raw nerves being touched at all.


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 12:07 pm 
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If this thread continues to be volatile, it will be shut down.

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 12:18 pm 
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helbury wrote:
It's it a bit problematic to just lump all of Africa together? The measles outbreak in the linked article was traced back to a child that traveled to Kenya specifically.


Certain countries do have different recommendations, but in general, a lot of the WHO guidelines tend to extend for entire continents. The same applies to South America, Asia, Europe, North America, etc. The big exceptions are probably areas divided significantly by geography.

I don't think it is problematic so much as conveient. If you go to a travel clinic, they will usually have a list of recommendations broken down first by general area, and then any local specifics, as needed.

How routinely do people lump European countries together as "Europe?" is that problematic? If not, why is it different? Sure, there is the EU and the "Euro Zone," but there is also the African Union/Organization of African States.

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 12:22 pm 
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Ummm ok. I don't think I said anyone was anything. I said it can be construed as.. Also, sadly children die who are both vaccinated and not so I don't know why so angry towards what I said?


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