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 Post subject: Re: recipe étiquette
PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 12:06 pm 
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ol' garly cooch
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i talked about this in yesterday's post on my blog. i'm too lazy to type a whole recipe anyway, i usually give propers to an author, and a link to the book. if i improvise a recipe to use what i have on hand, i call that hijacking. i haven't been bitched out yet--i can hold my own if need be.

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 Post subject: Re: recipe étiquette
PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 3:18 pm 
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The US Copyright Office says this about recipes:
Quote:
Copyright law does not protect recipes that are mere listings of ingredients. Nor does it protect other mere listings of ingredients such as those found in formulas, compounds, or prescriptions. Copyright protection may, however, extend to substantial literary expression—a description, explanation, or illustration, for example—that accompanies a recipe or formula or to a combination of recipes, as in a cookbook.


This is 'in the news', because Cook's Source magazine printed a recipe lifted off the web without compensation. Details at http://gawker.com/5681770/magazine-editor-steals-article-tells-writer-you-should-compensate-me.

As an aside, this is also the reason Coca-Cola's secret formula is secret.

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 Post subject: Re: recipe étiquette
PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 3:27 pm 
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Dave in MPLS wrote:
The US Copyright Office says this about recipes:
Quote:
Copyright law does not protect recipes that are mere listings of ingredients. Nor does it protect other mere listings of ingredients such as those found in formulas, compounds, or prescriptions. Copyright protection may, however, extend to substantial literary expression—a description, explanation, or illustration, for example—that accompanies a recipe or formula or to a combination of recipes, as in a cookbook.


This is 'in the news', because Cook's Source magazine printed a recipe lifted off the web without compensation. Details at http://gawker.com/5681770/magazine-editor-steals-article-tells-writer-you-should-compensate-me.

As an aside, this is also the reason Coca-Cola's secret formula is secret.

Whoa! They didn't just lift the recipe, they lifted the whole article. There's no question at all that that's copyright violation. And they're selling it, which takes it to a whole different level.


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 Post subject: Re: recipe étiquette
PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 4:50 pm 
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mollyjade wrote:
Dave in MPLS wrote:
The US Copyright Office says this about recipes:
Quote:
Copyright law does not protect recipes that are mere listings of ingredients. Nor does it protect other mere listings of ingredients such as those found in formulas, compounds, or prescriptions. Copyright protection may, however, extend to substantial literary expression—a description, explanation, or illustration, for example—that accompanies a recipe or formula or to a combination of recipes, as in a cookbook.


This is 'in the news', because Cook's Source magazine printed a recipe lifted off the web without compensation. Details at http://gawker.com/5681770/magazine-editor-steals-article-tells-writer-you-should-compensate-me.

As an aside, this is also the reason Coca-Cola's secret formula is secret.

Whoa! They didn't just lift the recipe, they lifted the whole article. There's no question at all that that's copyright violation. And they're selling it, which takes it to a whole different level.

http://forum.theppk.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1580


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 Post subject: Re: recipe étiquette
PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 5:32 pm 
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Typically when I do it, even if I modify the recipe, I give credit to the author and the book or website it came from, link to the original recipe (if it's available somewhere online) and link to the person's website as well. If I can find the author's contact info I usually shoot them an email to ask permission, even if I'm modifying the recipe. Most people have been really cool about me posting their recipes or modifications of their recipes and have just asked that the information above be in blog post somewhere which I think is completely fair and really nice.

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 Post subject: Re: recipe étiquette
PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 5:48 pm 
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i think that when you post anything on the internet that isn't yours (recipes, photos, art, etc) you should ask permission first, unless the person who did create it has clearly stated somewhere that you do not need to. this might not always be legally necessary, but i do think it is common courtesy.

regarding recipes specifically, i think it's nice when blogs include recipes, but i already own a lot of cookbooks and, ya know, have a library card. it is equally if not more helpful when bloggers post reviews and pictures of food they've made from someone else's recipe. most of the time, just reposting how to make something really isn't going to get me going. i want to read about how it tasted, what you had to change because you couldn't find an ingredient called for, and whether your omni partner thought it was good, too.

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 Post subject: Re: recipe étiquette
PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 5:59 pm 
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ismloveyoubobbybrown wrote:
i think it's nice when blogs include recipes, but i already own a lot of cookbooks and, ya know, have a library card. it is equally if not more helpful when bloggers post reviews and pictures of food they've made from someone else's recipe. most of the time, just reposting how to make something really isn't going to get me going. i want to read about how it tasted, what you had to change because you couldn't find an ingredient called for, and whether your omni partner thought it was good, too.


well said!



I'm clearly not a cookbook/real author of any type, but it bugs *me* when I see recipes posted online that I either recognize that don't give credit or are eerily similar to countless others. When I do post recipes on my site, I make a point (because it makes sense!) to mention my inspiration or what something is adapted from. Unless you're in your kitchen making up as you go along, you're clearly inspired from something! Or, in some cases, I think recall recipes/themes and think they're yours? I don't know.

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 Post subject: Re: recipe étiquette
PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 6:55 pm 
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joyfulgirl wrote:
Yes. It makes more sense to have your recipes online. Otherwise, how would I know if I'm going to like it? I have all of Isa's books because Isa is the master of vegan cuisine.


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 Post subject: Re: recipe étiquette
PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 9:42 am 
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Rach*n wrote:
joyfulgirl wrote:
Yes. It makes more sense to have your recipes online. Otherwise, how would I know if I'm going to like it? I have all of Isa's books because Isa is the master of vegan cuisine.


I agree that having your work available online is incredibly worthwhile and can truly do a lot to build a fan base/awareness. I just believe that whether it is made available should be up to the creator of said work. Really, if you do people the courtesy of asking their permission, most of the time they will happily grant it.

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 Post subject: Re: recipe étiquette
PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 10:19 am 
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ismloveyoubobbybrown wrote:
I agree that having your work available online is incredibly worthwhile and can truly do a lot to build a fan base/awareness. I just believe that whether it is made available should be up to the creator of said work. Really, if you do people the courtesy of asking their permission, most of the time they will happily grant it.

Oh, definitely. I was just saying that it's kind of stupid to deny permission like the uncheese lady.


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 Post subject: Re: recipe étiquette
PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 6:06 am 
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I posted a recipe on my blog today which used a recipe by The Urban Vegan as a starting point. (I found the recipe online at a third person's site, and you can also find it using Amazon's search inside feature. The recipe used to be available online at Dynise Balcavage's original blog, but that has since been made private.) Anyway, I looked at my altered recipe next to hers, and I have changed out amounts of five of the ten ingredients and added in two additional ingredients. The texture and taste of mine would be very different than hers. I wanted to get her permission before posting, but there is no contact information on her site, and I guess she's just left to go to Paris Vegan Day anyway. I definitely noted on the blog that I used her recipe as a starting point and linked to her blog, and I'd like to leave the recipe up, but not if it's unethical. However, I keep thinking about this thread and wondering if this is a bad idea. Does anyone have advice for me?


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 Post subject: Re: recipe étiquette
PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 12:25 pm 
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ALWAYS ask for permission. That shiitake is copyrighted, people! And you want people to support vegan authors, right? Post a tantalizing pic and hope that your readers go out and buy the book, or get permission from the author and let it be their call if they want it out there. That's my philosophy, anyway. If it's heavily modified I guess it's okay to post but give lots of credit to recipe's root, link to the book, etc.


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 Post subject: Re: recipe étiquette
PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 12:32 pm 
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celyn wrote:
I posted a recipe on my blog today which used a recipe by The Urban Vegan as a starting point. (I found the recipe online at a third person's site, and you can also find it using Amazon's search inside feature. The recipe used to be available online at Dynise Balcavage's original blog, but that has since been made private.) Anyway, I looked at my altered recipe next to hers, and I have changed out amounts of five of the ten ingredients and added in two additional ingredients. The texture and taste of mine would be very different than hers. I wanted to get her permission before posting, but there is no contact information on her site, and I guess she's just left to go to Paris Vegan Day anyway. I definitely noted on the blog that I used her recipe as a starting point and linked to her blog, and I'd like to leave the recipe up, but not if it's unethical. However, I keep thinking about this thread and wondering if this is a bad idea. Does anyone have advice for me?


you said where you got the recipe from and you changed a bunch of stuff. I honestly think that is totally fine. She veganized the recipe from somewhere else. Everyone is constantly making recipes and evolving them from other recipes, even cookbook authors. Plus, you plugged her book and wrote your own directions.

I have a pretty lax view on this whole thing, but I think as credit is given when it is due and no one is posting someone's entire cookbook in their blog, it's really ok.

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 Post subject: Re: recipe étiquette
PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2010 2:09 am 
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ijustdiedinside wrote:
celyn wrote:
I posted a recipe on my blog today which used a recipe by The Urban Vegan as a starting point. (I found the recipe online at a third person's site, and you can also find it using Amazon's search inside feature. The recipe used to be available online at Dynise Balcavage's original blog, but that has since been made private.) Anyway, I looked at my altered recipe next to hers, and I have changed out amounts of five of the ten ingredients and added in two additional ingredients. The texture and taste of mine would be very different than hers. I wanted to get her permission before posting, but there is no contact information on her site, and I guess she's just left to go to Paris Vegan Day anyway. I definitely noted on the blog that I used her recipe as a starting point and linked to her blog, and I'd like to leave the recipe up, but not if it's unethical. However, I keep thinking about this thread and wondering if this is a bad idea. Does anyone have advice for me?


you said where you got the recipe from and you changed a bunch of stuff. I honestly think that is totally fine. She veganized the recipe from somewhere else. Everyone is constantly making recipes and evolving them from other recipes, even cookbook authors. Plus, you plugged her book and wrote your own directions.

I have a pretty lax view on this whole thing, but I think as credit is given when it is due and no one is posting someone's entire cookbook in their blog, it's really ok.


I forgot to thank you for this, idji. Of course if I hear back from her and she doesn't like it, I'll delete. However, Vijita, as I said, I tried to contact her. There are no contact details on her website.


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 Post subject: Re: recipe étiquette
PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2010 6:27 am 
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celyn wrote:
ijustdiedinside wrote:
celyn wrote:
I posted a recipe on my blog today which used a recipe by The Urban Vegan as a starting point. (I found the recipe online at a third person's site, and you can also find it using Amazon's search inside feature. The recipe used to be available online at Dynise Balcavage's original blog, but that has since been made private.) Anyway, I looked at my altered recipe next to hers, and I have changed out amounts of five of the ten ingredients and added in two additional ingredients. The texture and taste of mine would be very different than hers. I wanted to get her permission before posting, but there is no contact information on her site, and I guess she's just left to go to Paris Vegan Day anyway. I definitely noted on the blog that I used her recipe as a starting point and linked to her blog, and I'd like to leave the recipe up, but not if it's unethical. However, I keep thinking about this thread and wondering if this is a bad idea. Does anyone have advice for me?


you said where you got the recipe from and you changed a bunch of stuff. I honestly think that is totally fine. She veganized the recipe from somewhere else. Everyone is constantly making recipes and evolving them from other recipes, even cookbook authors. Plus, you plugged her book and wrote your own directions.

I have a pretty lax view on this whole thing, but I think as credit is given when it is due and no one is posting someone's entire cookbook in their blog, it's really ok.


I forgot to thank you for this, idji. Of course if I hear back from her and she doesn't like it, I'll delete. However, Vijita, as I said, I tried to contact her. There are no contact details on her website.

Sorry, I totally didn't mean to direct that to you specifically! I just mean in general, it's usually good protocol in my opinion to to try to contact the author, which you did. Like ijdi said, I think you did everything right!


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 Post subject: Re: recipe étiquette
PostPosted: Fri Nov 26, 2010 4:50 pm 
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i also plug the book with a link to amazon so people will think about buying it.

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 Post subject: Re: recipe étiquette
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 3:04 pm 
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Okay, this seems to me like it's reaching the point of absurdity! You can't copyright food. You can copyright a cookbook, you can copyright your story about the food, but you can't copyright food. It doesn't even make sense. If I see a blog post with a photo of some food and a link to a cookbook, I'm not going to go out and buy the cookbook. I'm just going to say "Oh, how annoying, they didn't even tell me how to make the food" and then go cook something else. If someone post a recipe and I try it and it's great, then I might buy the cookbook. Similarly, if I know a cookbook author is going to be angry if I share recipes from their cookbook, I'm definitely not going to buy the cookbook. This might just be me but there is no way I'm going to spend money on a cookbook if I don't already know that there are recipes in it I'm going to use. I hardly ever make the recipe exactly the way the cookbook says anyway, so honestly, while I'd rather give credit to the person whose recipe inspired whatever I cooked so that people might go out and buy their cookbook, I could just as easily not mention their cookbook at all. Honestly, it's kind of insulting to me as a cook that a cookbook author would have the idea that they can claim ownership of the idea of which foods to combine to make a recipe just because they happened to put it in a book and I didn't. And I don't feel like it does ANYTHING positive for the cause of veganism to not share recipes. Isn't the whole point of this to give people more access to more ways to have more delicious vegan food?

Thank you for indulging my little rant. MoFo on. :)

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 Post subject: Re: recipe étiquette
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 3:51 pm 
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Oh I didn't know. I am new to blogging and have been posting the recipes naming the cookbook and author. But now that you guys mention it it makes sense.

I erased all the recipes now and just let the photos and my comments.

How do you guys contact the authors? Just by email?


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 Post subject: Re: recipe étiquette
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 4:02 pm 
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choirqueer wrote:
Okay, this seems to me like it's reaching the point of absurdity! You can't copyright food. You can copyright a cookbook, you can copyright your story about the food, but you can't copyright food. It doesn't even make sense. If I see a blog post with a photo of some food and a link to a cookbook, I'm not going to go out and buy the cookbook. I'm just going to say "Oh, how annoying, they didn't even tell me how to make the food" and then go cook something else. If someone post a recipe and I try it and it's great, then I might buy the cookbook. Similarly, if I know a cookbook author is going to be angry if I share recipes from their cookbook, I'm definitely not going to buy the cookbook. This might just be me but there is no way I'm going to spend money on a cookbook if I don't already know that there are recipes in it I'm going to use. I hardly ever make the recipe exactly the way the cookbook says anyway, so honestly, while I'd rather give credit to the person whose recipe inspired whatever I cooked so that people might go out and buy their cookbook, I could just as easily not mention their cookbook at all. Honestly, it's kind of insulting to me as a cook that a cookbook author would have the idea that they can claim ownership of the idea of which foods to combine to make a recipe just because they happened to put it in a book and I didn't. And I don't feel like it does ANYTHING positive for the cause of veganism to not share recipes. Isn't the whole point of this to give people more access to more ways to have more delicious vegan food?

Thank you for indulging my little rant. MoFo on. :)


People deserve to be compensated for their work. Do you realize that you could more or less recreate any of Isa and Terry's cookbooks by doing internet searches? Doesn't that bother you? You have a fair idea of how much work they put into their books. Most vegan cookbook authors are very generous about posting recipes, and I feel it's shitting on them not to give them some basic courtesy.

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 Post subject: Re: recipe étiquette
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 4:05 pm 
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choirqueer wrote:
Okay, this seems to me like it's reaching the point of absurdity! You can't copyright food. You can copyright a cookbook, you can copyright your story about the food, but you can't copyright food. It doesn't even make sense. If I see a blog post with a photo of some food and a link to a cookbook, I'm not going to go out and buy the cookbook. I'm just going to say "Oh, how annoying, they didn't even tell me how to make the food" and then go cook something else. If someone post a recipe and I try it and it's great, then I might buy the cookbook. Similarly, if I know a cookbook author is going to be angry if I share recipes from their cookbook, I'm definitely not going to buy the cookbook. This might just be me but there is no way I'm going to spend money on a cookbook if I don't already know that there are recipes in it I'm going to use. I hardly ever make the recipe exactly the way the cookbook says anyway, so honestly, while I'd rather give credit to the person whose recipe inspired whatever I cooked so that people might go out and buy their cookbook, I could just as easily not mention their cookbook at all. Honestly, it's kind of insulting to me as a cook that a cookbook author would have the idea that they can claim ownership of the idea of which foods to combine to make a recipe just because they happened to put it in a book and I didn't. And I don't feel like it does ANYTHING positive for the cause of veganism to not share recipes. Isn't the whole point of this to give people more access to more ways to have more delicious vegan food?

Thank you for indulging my little rant. MoFo on. :)


I consider myself a really good cook, but I know there is no way I could have thought of many of the combinations or techniques I've learned from my awesome vegan cookbooks.

But even if I could have, here is the key thing: I didn't. They put all that time and work into it. While they were thinking, creating, testing, writing, editing, photographing -- I was doing all the stuff that makes up my life. All I did was buy a cookbook and make a recipe. I'm not entitled to share THEIR work if it is against their wishes.

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 Post subject: Re: recipe étiquette
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 4:06 pm 
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janejellyroll wrote:
But even if I could have, here is the key thing: I didn't. They put all that time and work into it. While they were thinking, creating, testing, writing, editing, photographing -- I was doing all the stuff that makes up my life. All I did was buy a cookbook and make a recipe. I'm not entitled to share THEIR work if it is against their wishes.

Exactly!


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 Post subject: Re: recipe étiquette
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 4:21 pm 
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You can't copyright food, but there's more to right and wrong than what's legal. We're a community, and the right thing to do is respect the work that goes into creating recipes.


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 Post subject: Re: recipe étiquette
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 4:32 pm 
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I can see the argument for not sharing them, but on a practical level I'm with CQ in that if there's no recipe I'm definitely not going to seek it out in the bookstore based on the pic alone. If there's a recipe I'll make it and if I like it I'll buy the book to get more from the author, but just a pic does nothing for me. I don't think I follow any blogs that only post pics for that exact reason.


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 Post subject: Re: recipe étiquette
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 4:36 pm 
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When in doubt ask the author. Always given credit to the author/original poster. Most recipes are written online somewhere, if you must link to that and write you substitutions in.


Linking to the original blog post is also appreciated.

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 Post subject: Re: recipe étiquette
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 4:37 pm 
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this is what some of my friends are telling me. they had started making vegan food after seeing my blog but they don't want to get any cookbooks yet without tasting a few things (non is fully vegan yet). and the way to get around this is emailing the author asking to use some of her recipes? Or do you have to be specific on which etc?

I was also thinking of posting the amazon link for the cookbook in each post.


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