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 Post subject: Re: recipe étiquette
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 4:47 pm 
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Sick of Cupcakes
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Yeah, oh gosh, don't get me wrong, I have a ton of respect for cookbook authors and the work they put in. If I really believed that blog posts which included recipes from cookbooks was keeping people from buying cookbooks and supporting the authors, I would agree that it shouldn't be done. I guess my perspective on it is that I put a lot of effort into cooking, and I occasionally get my ideas from cookbooks, so as a writer I like to be able to write and post on my blog about the work I put into cooking which sometimes involves getting some inspiration from a cookbook. If I were writing a blog post about any book, and I were referring to a particular passage in the book, I would probably post the excerpt from the book to which I was referring, so that people would be able to understand what I was talking about in my blog post and then they could go get the book if it interested them beyond just what I posted. I wouldn't post the whole book, but I wouldn't see anything wrong with posting an excerpt rather than expecting someone to go out and get the book just to understand my blog post.

I hope I'm not coming off sounding like I'm trying to have an argument or anything? I'm not, really; I'm just pretty new to this whole blogging thing and some things are confusing to me but I just want to learn to do it well. My hope is that my blog posts are respectful of both the cookbook authors and of the readers of my blog who want access to information about vegan food (or any of the other things I write about), and I'm very open to learning to do that better. :)

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 Post subject: Re: recipe étiquette
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 4:51 pm 
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Is it that hard to ask them first? Some people don't care, some people do, anyone would appreciate being asked first.

Also why should I take the time to type up a recipe from a book that I paid for so other people don't have to spend money?

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 Post subject: Re: recipe étiquette
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 4:54 pm 
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SwissMiss wrote:
I was also thinking of posting the amazon link for the cookbook in each post.


This is what I do. I don't even buy from Amazon (their shipping costs to Australia are ridiculous), but the look inside feature is usually really good and most of the time you can use it to find the recipe I'm talking about.

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 Post subject: Re: recipe étiquette
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 4:57 pm 
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Oh, and the author who you are complaining about who DOES care? They make a dollar per book at best. They aren't Metallica, rolling around in a pile of cash while complaining about album piracy. Vegan cookbook authors aren't going on sold-out tours, hawking $40 concert shirts, and getting paid royalties for their songs being in commercials. Pretty much all of them still have 9-5 jobs in addition to putting a lot of time in effort into a book. Please tell me they are awful for wanting to make a lousy dollar. Please.

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 Post subject: Re: recipe étiquette
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 5:01 pm 
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If I see a recipe referenced on the internet, usually by an appetizing photo, I'll seek out the cookbook to purchase, from my library to check out - which I do with most cookbooks, or will google the recipe or a similar one...even better yet, I'll be inspired to make my own version. I'll also trust a recipe that seems legitimately provided by an author vs. something typed up on a blog (and as a blogger, no real offense to bloggers here!)
Like MSM said, I'm happy to support an author.

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 Post subject: Re: recipe étiquette
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 5:03 pm 
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And I just emailed Bryant Terry, whose cookbook is the one I'm all over in the blog right now. I am glad you tipped me off that I should do that -- I definitely agree about that! :)

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 Post subject: Re: recipe étiquette
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 5:08 pm 
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Even though it seems like a short excerpt, it's really more like poetry. You can't just post a poem (or you're not supposed to) because it's a complete unit in itself. Recipes are like that.


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 Post subject: Re: recipe étiquette
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 5:13 pm 
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Sick of Cupcakes
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I honestly don't buy a lot of cookbooks and I assume that most of my readers also don't buy a lot of cookbooks. I don't have the money to buy cookbooks, generally, so I have to be really sure that I want to buy it before I'd spend the money. It's not that I don't want to support cookbook authors or that I think they're making lots of money from their cookbook sales. I do want to support cookbook authors! So, I post about their cookbooks in ways that encourage people to go out and buy them, if they're going to go out and buy a cookbook, and if they weren't going to go out and buy a cookbook anyway, the cookbook author isn't losing any money.

But, you are absolutely right, checking with the author first is a good idea regardless. And I'm glad that I just did, because I just got the sweetest email back from Bryant. Yay!

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 Post subject: Re: recipe étiquette
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 5:25 pm 
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choirqueer wrote:
Okay, this seems to me like it's reaching the point of absurdity! You can't copyright food. You can copyright a cookbook, you can copyright your story about the food, but you can't copyright food. It doesn't even make sense. If I see a blog post with a photo of some food and a link to a cookbook, I'm not going to go out and buy the cookbook. I'm just going to say "Oh, how annoying, they didn't even tell me how to make the food" and then go cook something else. If someone post a recipe and I try it and it's great, then I might buy the cookbook. Similarly, if I know a cookbook author is going to be angry if I share recipes from their cookbook, I'm definitely not going to buy the cookbook. This might just be me but there is no way I'm going to spend money on a cookbook if I don't already know that there are recipes in it I'm going to use. I hardly ever make the recipe exactly the way the cookbook says anyway, so honestly, while I'd rather give credit to the person whose recipe inspired whatever I cooked so that people might go out and buy their cookbook, I could just as easily not mention their cookbook at all. Honestly, it's kind of insulting to me as a cook that a cookbook author would have the idea that they can claim ownership of the idea of which foods to combine to make a recipe just because they happened to put it in a book and I didn't. And I don't feel like it does ANYTHING positive for the cause of veganism to not share recipes. Isn't the whole point of this to give people more access to more ways to have more delicious vegan food?

Thank you for indulging my little rant. MoFo on. :)


Cookbook authors' livelihood is their writing of cookbooks. Therefore, their work product is what is inside their cookbooks, most notably, recipes. If you copy and disseminate recipes from someone's cookbook, you are taking someone's work product, from which they derive their livelihood, and giving it away for free. It's sort of like taking a single song off an album and putting it up on the internet for people to download.

It doesn't really have anything to do with how likely a person will or won't be to buy the cookbook after using the free sample (provided without the owner/author's consent). It has to do with people taking other people's work and putting it out there for other people to use for free without the author's blessing. That's not cool, even if it convinces a couple people to buy the cookbook.

As others have pointed out, it's not exactly hard to send off a quick email asking for permission to publish a recipe on a blog, so why not do it and err on the side of being respectful and supportive of vegan cookbook authors rather than on the side of ripping them off?

ETA: I didn't see there was a whole other page of responses when I wrote this, so please don't see it as a pile on.

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 Post subject: Re: recipe étiquette
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 6:53 pm 
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I just want to add that it took me a long time to figure this all out and I am glad we are having a thread to discuss the reasons. When I first started I would post full recipes, always linking back to the book, because I thought that was what you are supposed to do in a food blog! As time went on I stopped posting recipes almost altogether and now I just talk about what I made and how I did it and what inspired me (unless it is something precise). It is easier than writing every step anyway. And most people don't exactly follow recipes on blogs, they will invariably do their own thing anyhow. Or that has been my experience anyway.
If you are talking about a book you can usually find an interview either on a blog or on a newspaper site and link to that because they usually have sample recipes.
Also, regarding asking the authors if you post the recipe, at first I thought people would think it was annoying for my little old blog to ask for a recipe but then after I did it I found out people were usually thrilled that I wanted to repost so it turned out to be really fun. I especially love to ask omni's if they mind if I veganize their recipe. Invariably they come over to my blog and are excited to see their creation vegan style. It is pretty cool

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 Post subject: Re: recipe étiquette
PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 10:49 pm 
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It is funny because I would never post a recipe that isn't mine or heavily modified without permission. But this mofo I'm posting all recipes from a discontinued book from the 60's. If it was still available I wouldn't bother posting, but I'm posting as written with vegan subs to give the book a bit of props and to hopefully help others find the recipes in this book. Totally unlike me though.

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 Post subject: Re: recipe étiquette
PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 4:29 am 
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So thanks to you guys pointing it out I emailed Julie Hasson from the Vegan Diner, as it is a book I use a lot. And she was just so nice! She said that it is the publishers who make the problems. She said I can post a couple of recipes (which I had mentioned to her) without a problem and that she was going to ask the publishers for more. She also helped me with linking me to a few recipes which were already online. So I am super happy. :)


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 Post subject: Re: recipe étiquette
PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 8:20 pm 
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I can definitely see both sides of this argument! I think though that if I try a recipe from a blog, a website, or something that is from a certain cookbook and I really like the recipe, I definitely end up buying the cookbook that it's from! Because chances are, I'd like the other recipes, too. I tried a cupcake recipe posted on a blog from Vegan Cupcakes Take Over the World and I loved it, so I went out and bought the cupcake book, plus Veganomicon. Then, when the cookie book came out, I bought that too because I know it would be good. If it weren't for that initial blog, I may not have even found out about Isa & Terry's cookbooks to begin with. I know that posting material that is original content and copywritten may not be such a great idea. I want the writers to be able to make a decent living. But sometimes blogs and internet websites can be the best for promoting a cookbook and the more people that write about it, the more that find out about it and the more people that would hopefully buy the book! :)

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 Post subject: Re: recipe étiquette
PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 8:32 pm 
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I think that sometimes bloggers are a wee bit obsessed with bringing traffic to their blogs, and I guess that's fine, but it shouldn't be because they're offering material that is not theirs to share.


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 Post subject: Re: recipe étiquette
PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 8:34 pm 
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I don't think anyone is disputing that putting recipes online helps cookbook sales. The point is, if you didn't put in the work and create the recipe it's not really you who should be deciding whether the recipe is publicly available or not.

Quote:
I think that sometimes bloggers are a wee bit obsessed with bringing traffic to their blogs, and I guess that's fine, but it shouldn't be because they're offering material that is not theirs to share


Also, this. If you cannot come up with original content (and, no, it doesn't have to be recipes) maybe you shouldn't have a blog.

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 Post subject: Re: recipe étiquette
PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 9:24 pm 
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loolie wrote:
I can definitely see both sides of this argument! I think though that if I try a recipe from a blog, a website, or something that is from a certain cookbook and I really like the recipe, I definitely end up buying the cookbook that it's from! Because chances are, I'd like the other recipes, too. I tried a cupcake recipe posted on a blog from Vegan Cupcakes Take Over the World and I loved it, so I went out and bought the cupcake book, plus Veganomicon. Then, when the cookie book came out, I bought that too because I know it would be good. If it weren't for that initial blog, I may not have even found out about Isa & Terry's cookbooks to begin with. I know that posting material that is original content and copywritten may not be such a great idea. I want the writers to be able to make a decent living. But sometimes blogs and internet websites can be the best for promoting a cookbook and the more people that write about it, the more that find out about it and the more people that would hopefully buy the book! :)


But it's up to the authors (or at least their publishers...) whether they want to give freebie recipes to promote their books. It's not cool that some blogger would take that decision away from them. It's great when blogs inspire people to support vegan cookbook authors, but that doesn't mean bloggers should get to call the authors' shots. If bloggers want to support cookbook authors, they can link to (or post/repost with permission) the recipes the author has decided to make available.

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 Post subject: Re: recipe étiquette
PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 9:32 pm 
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jordanpattern wrote:
But it's up to the authors (or at least their publishers...) whether they want to give freebie recipes to promote their books. It's not cool that some blogger would take that decision away from them. It's great when blogs inspire people to support vegan cookbook authors, but that doesn't mean bloggers should get to call the authors' shots. If bloggers want to support cookbook authors, they can link to (or post/repost with permission) the recipes the author has decided to make available.


I can totally see that. I think I will ask the author for permission when posting in the future! I'm a bit new to the whole vegan blogging world so it is good to see what others think :) one reason why i love this community!

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 Post subject: Re: recipe étiquette
PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 10:44 pm 
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jordanpattern wrote:
But it's up to the authors (or at least their publishers...) whether they want to give freebie recipes to promote their books. It's not cool that some blogger would take that decision away from them. It's great when blogs inspire people to support vegan cookbook authors, but that doesn't mean bloggers should get to call the authors' shots. If bloggers want to support cookbook authors, they can link to (or post/repost with permission) the recipes the author has decided to make available.


Exactly. This is why I link back to Amazon (where I understand that authors/publishers can choose how much to share via the look inside feature) or the author's own blog.

I cook a lot of things from recipes I find via Amazon in new books, and I usually do buy the book in the end. The 'try before you buy' approach works for me. But whether or not to take that approach from an author's perspective is their call to make, not mine.

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 Post subject: Re: recipe étiquette
PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 5:48 am 
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Another thing to remember is that a lot of cookbook authors have their own blogs where they post recipes (from their books & not), just look at the PPK website for example! You can go there to try recipes before you buy the books knowing that sharing the recipe was the writers choice.

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 Post subject: Re: recipe étiquette
PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 6:31 am 
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ismloveyoubobbybrown wrote:
Quote:
I think that sometimes bloggers are a wee bit obsessed with bringing traffic to their blogs, and I guess that's fine, but it shouldn't be because they're offering material that is not theirs to share


Also, this. If you cannot come up with original content (and, no, it doesn't have to be recipes) maybe you shouldn't have a blog.



I don't know about that. The reason I have a blog is to show people friends and family what a realistic view of what a vegan eats is, not to pretend to be a chef when I'm not. I post some of my own recipes, but most are from cookbooks. That's true to what I eat...mostly from cookbooks. Should I stop sharing with people about my positive experiences with vegan cooking? I don't think so.

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 Post subject: Re: recipe étiquette
PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 7:12 am 
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There are a lot of ways to share vegan food without posting recipes you didn't write. Making food from from a cookbook, taking your own pictures of it, and talking about YOUR experience with that meal is ENTIRELY different than just posting a recipe you didn't write. That's what I would consider original content, and in my opinion a bit more interesting than just posting a pic and recipe you didn't write.

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 Post subject: Re: recipe étiquette
PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 8:03 am 
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I don't think I've ever seen someone just post a picture they didn't take and a recipe they didn't write. I think you're reading some really boring blogs.

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 Post subject: Re: recipe étiquette
PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 8:10 am 
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Should Write a Goddam Book Already
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I've seen some similar stuff on the MoFo reader, BUT what I am trying to say is there are ways to post interesting, original content without posting recipes written by someone else.

If you (not YOU, but the general you) don't write recipes, maybe your blog shouldn't have recipes on it. If you can't figure out how to present a blog without posting recipes that aren't yours... don't blog.

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