| Register  | FAQ  | Search | Login 
It is currently Fri Aug 22, 2014 11:08 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 61 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Bilingualing your Baby
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 10:01 pm 
Offline
Semen Strong
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 7:10 pm
Posts: 18850
Location: Cliffbar NJ
Thanks for all the experiences!

I don't have what it takes to raise Leela entirely in German, esp given that I have her most of the time and go out with English speaking friends, but I can keep speaking German and French to her just so she has some familiarity with the sounds.

I've read that the window is really small to teach them, but I learned German fluently at 6 and French well enough to get a law degree at 25. I think that everyone's posts is a great reassurance that I haven't missed out on teaching her languages if I don't start now.

_________________
My oven is bigger on the inside, and it produces lots of wibbly wobbly, cake wakey... stuff. - The PoopieB.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Bilingualing your Baby
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 10:44 pm 
Offline
Huffs Nooch
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2010 1:46 pm
Posts: 128
I don't have kids but was raised bilingual with both my parents speaking french to my brother ad I at home and going to a french immersion school. I grew up in Ottawa and most of my pop culture exposure was in english. Now I live in Montreal and swing back and forth between the 2.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Bilingualing your Baby
PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 4:34 am 
Offline
Making Threats to Punks Again
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2010 2:00 pm
Posts: 1102
Location: Sweden
torque wrote:
My regret is that I didn't continue speaking Japanese to Sprog (I spoke Japanese to her as a little kid, and she still knows animal names and some few katakana, but that's about it), because i feared as a fluent but non-native speaker i would be teaching errors and inconsistencies, and I thought it was better not to risk it, especially since we already had two languages. also, i thought it wouldn't be super useful, and I was also worried about how much effort it would take for her to maintain fluent, updated English (not as difficult as I thought between me, TV/interwebz and her voracious reading habits). Yet now we are finally getting to work on Japanese and the sounds and thought patterns are just so alien-sounding to her that I fear we missed the window. I wish I had been confident enough to say, ah, what the hell, why not add another language.

That's exactly why my parents didn't teach me Romanian as a kid. They both grew up around it but thought they didn't speak it well enough to teach me properly. I wish they had just for the hell of it though. I managed to learn to speak French decently without having another romance language to fall back on but it would have been nice to have an extra language with minimal effort involved.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Bilingualing your Baby
PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 8:32 am 
Offline
Has it on Blue Vinyl
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2011 7:44 pm
Posts: 2144
My husband speaks mostly Spanish and I speak mostly English to our baby. We'll see how it goes here in New Mexico where a lot of people are bilingual.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Bilingualing your Baby
PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 9:02 am 
Offline
The Real Hamburger Helper
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2011 10:13 pm
Posts: 2330
annak wrote:
I remember reading an article in one of the Dutch newspapers where linguists were advising non-native-Dutch-speaking parents to speak to their child in their own native language, saying that the most important thing was for the child to be raised speaking a language, any language, correctly with consistent grammar. (This was probably aimed mostly at immigrants from eg Turkey or Morocco.)


Chipmunk wrote:
torque wrote:
I thought it was better not to risk it, especially since we already had two languages. also, i thought it wouldn't be super useful, and I was also worried about how much effort it would take for her to maintain fluent, updated English (not as difficult as I thought between me, TV/interwebz and her voracious reading habits). Yet now we are finally getting to work on Japanese and the sounds and thought patterns are just so alien-sounding to her that I fear we missed the window. I wish I had been confident enough to say, ah, what the hell, why not add another language.

That's exactly why my parents didn't teach me Romanian as a kid. They both grew up around it but thought they didn't speak it well enough to teach me properly./quote]

I think the advice against speaking a non-native language that might not be perfect is not referring to learning a second language as enrichment, but when learning a language period. Especially when a language is from an oppressed cultural group, parents sometimes limit or stop speaking in their native language to their children, thinking it will be easier for the child to assimilate. I have had students whose parents are immigrants and do not speak English but the kids don't speak the parents' language. This seriously hampers literacy and speech development. But for enrichment? I think the pros outweigh the cons.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Bilingualing your Baby
PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 9:25 am 
Offline
Seagull of the PPK
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 6:46 pm
Posts: 7836
Location: Brasil
Well, we haven't given up, and actually worked on Japanese this morning. I am haunted by my grandmother, who has memories of her father speaking Gaelic as his first language but never speaking it to her because it was "not allowed in the house". Nobody in my husband's family speaks Japanese (except for those of us who went to live there), which is really typical in Brazil- immigrants almost never teach their children their heritage languages. A British friend of mine didn't even teach his kids English, which to me is unfathomable, since they might want to use their UK passports someday.

We had so many fights about this. My husband had so many issues about speaking Portuguese to the kids that it was just one fight after another (CF the abovementioned brazilian tendency to not teach your kids). I would say if you are the speaker of another language, then great. If the plan involves someone else speaking another language, good bloody luck.

_________________
Buddha says 'Meh'.--matwinser
I'm just a drunk who likes fruit. -- Desdemona


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Bilingualing your Baby
PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 9:47 am 
Offline
The Real Hamburger Helper
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2011 10:13 pm
Posts: 2330
torque wrote:
Well, we haven't given up, and actually worked on Japanese this morning. I am haunted by my grandmother, who has memories of her father speaking Gaelic as his first language but never speaking it to her because it was "not allowed in the house". .


So awful! My grandmother was spanked or slapped for speaking creole/French at public school in Louisiana. She didn't teach my mom how to speak her language, nor did any of her siblings to their kids.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Bilingualing your Baby
PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 9:59 am 
Offline
Drinks Wild Tofurkey
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2010 2:23 pm
Posts: 2902
kimba wrote:
My husband speaks mostly Spanish and I speak mostly English to our baby. We'll see how it goes here in New Mexico where a lot of people are bilingual.



Gosh, I think this is an ideal place to grow up with two languages! Lucky kid.

_________________
Mal: We're still flying.
Simon: That's not much.
Mal: It's enough.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Bilingualing your Baby
PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 10:06 am 
Offline
Mispronounces Daiya
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 9:21 pm
Posts: 1479
Location: Hamburg, Germany
Butternut wrote:
torque wrote:
Well, we haven't given up, and actually worked on Japanese this morning. I am haunted by my grandmother, who has memories of her father speaking Gaelic as his first language but never speaking it to her because it was "not allowed in the house". .


So awful! My grandmother was spanked or slapped for speaking creole/French at public school in Louisiana. She didn't teach my mom how to speak her language, nor did any of her siblings to their kids.


I had forgotten about that - I know one family where the father refused to speak his native language. He was Scottish (living in France, his wife was French) and thought it was a handicap to have a Scottish accent. He actually got turned down from a number of TESL jobs because of his pronunciation. Ironically all 3 of his children have since moved to Scotland.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Bilingualing your Baby
PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 12:04 pm 
Offline
Seagull of the PPK
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 6:46 pm
Posts: 7836
Location: Brasil
aelle wrote:
He actually got turned down from a number of TESL jobs because of his pronunciation. Ironically all 3 of his children have since moved to Scotland.

Too bad for dad there, but HA! Parenting: whatever you do, it was the wrong choice....

_________________
Buddha says 'Meh'.--matwinser
I'm just a drunk who likes fruit. -- Desdemona


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Bilingualing your Baby
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:23 pm 
Offline
The Real Hamburger Helper
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2011 6:59 am
Posts: 2236
Location: Oxford, UK
This has been a subject of much discussion in our house, as we want to make sure that Freya is able to pick up Norwegian easily if we're still here in the UK as she grows (likely moving within a year or so). Mr refinnej has read mostly things saying that the each parent speaks their own language setup works best. When I was doing grad work (bicultural family studies), the in the home/out of the home approach was definitely was I came across more often. My Norwegian is only barely passable..I can keep myself out of trouble, but I'm not going to be making any speeches, so I wasn't sure if I'd corrupt her pronunciation, etc. If we end up in Norway, we'll likely switch to the home/away plan for sure, as then English would be the minority language, and the Mr's English skills are just fine (he occasionally forgets Norwegian words now, much to his chagrin :D)

Mostly, I've been reading trying to decide if introducing a third language (Spanish) is too confusing. The literature here seems to be all over the board. So, for now, Spanish is just a random flirtation, except for special words that I just happen to enjoy. Throw in the French children's songs we sing and she'll be a UN translator by the time she goes to school (plus Karl speaks decent German).

Polishing my Norwegian becomes a higher priority each day as soon, she'll be able to speak it better than me!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Bilingualing your Baby
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 5:58 pm 
Offline
Semen Strong
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 7:10 pm
Posts: 18850
Location: Cliffbar NJ
The NYT had this on the benefits of bilingualism: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/18/opini ... ntemail1=y

_________________
My oven is bigger on the inside, and it produces lots of wibbly wobbly, cake wakey... stuff. - The PoopieB.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Bilingualing your Baby
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 1:08 pm 
Offline
The Real Hamburger Helper
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2011 6:59 am
Posts: 2236
Location: Oxford, UK
Ooh I was just coming to post this! The mobile link gets around the pay wall too:
mobile.nytimes.com/2012/03/18/opinion/sunday/the-benefits-of-bilingualism.xml

If you are bilingualing and using sign do you use both languages wirh the signs? Freya's nearly 4 months (how dis that happen?) And that's when I thought I might start signing w/her


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Bilingualing your Baby
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 2:08 pm 
Offline
Attended Chelsea Clinton's Wedding

Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2011 3:01 am
Posts: 205
Location: Oslo, Norway
I am an international with lots of other international friends, so I've seen several children growing up in a place where neither parent is a native speaker. The children where both parents speak the same language (so the family language plus the daycare/country language = 2 languages) learn to speak both a lot faster than the children where the parents each speak a different language to the child and english with each other (so those plus the daycare/country language = 4 languages). The children with 4 languages tend to understand absolutely everybody no matter what language they are speaking to them, but at least until around 4 years age, only speak the day care language, even when visiting the home country of one of the parents (thereby being immersed in one of the other languages). Our child will grow up with three languages (mine, my sweetheart's, and the country we live in) so I expect it will learn languages somewhere in the middle of those other kids :). I've only seen one language situation that I think is somewhat difficult for the child- one parents' language is the language of the country they live in and the language the parents talk to each other in, but that parent talks to the child exclusively in a third language that he is fluent in, but not a native speaker of, and the child goes to a foreign language daycare, so the child is a four language child, but it's kind of artificially induced. The child speaks the language of the country (which is also the shared language of the parents) but I think because one parent talks in not his native language it creates distance between the child and her parent.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Bilingualing your Baby
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 2:18 pm 
Offline
Naked Under Apron
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2010 12:09 am
Posts: 1786
Location: New Portleans
Heya!
I know you asked for advice from parents raising bilingual kids, but I thought I would throw in my experiences as a Montessorian as well.

According to Montessori theory, children are in a sensitive period for language until about six years old. This means that children can literally absorb any language in their environment effortlessly without trying. After the age of six, when the sensitive period fades, children will have to work to "learn" language.

I witnessed this in my own classroom many times. My school was in a large Korean neighborhood and many of the new children had never even heard language before they started school. It took a little while, but they all became fluent in english. Children understand language before they are able to speak it (true for adults too).

If you want baby tofu to be bilingual, and by that I mean to be able to speak not just understand the second language, you will sorta have to enforce it. Developmentally, kids will want to speak and use the dominant cultural language, and if that's not the language you use at your house, you will sorta have to make them use that. I've seen time and time again young children who can understand their parents' language, but not speak unless their parents require it to be used in the house.

My grandmother is a perfect example of this. Her parents spoke no english only yiddish. She could understand them but not speak to them in yiddish. Her parents could understand a little english, but could not speak it.

Another teacher I worked with was Lebanese and she and her husband set a rule that only Arabic could be spoken in the house, unless there were guests. Her kids spoke perfect arabic.

xo
kittee

_________________
Cake Maker to the Stars

pakupaku
XGFX: Vegan Gluten-Free Stuff
"Stupid society. I'm gonna go put on bikini kill."~Susie Tofu Monster
"Kittee is wise. Listen to Kittee."~Aruna--> the PPKr currently known as mumbaikar

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Bilingualing your Baby
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 3:24 pm 
Offline
Making Threats to Punks Again
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2010 2:03 pm
Posts: 1130
Location: Knoxville, TN
kittee wrote:
My grandmother is a perfect example of this. Her parents spoke no english only yiddish. She could understand them but not speak to them in yiddish. Her parents could understand a little english, but could not speak it.


I used to babysit for two different Israeli families. In one, the parents only spoke Hebrew to the kids and had the kids only speak English back to them. The children learned to fluently understand Hebrew, but not speak it. In the other family, the whole family only spoke Hebrew at home and both children were bilingual, but it took them longer to learn English. I first met the family when the older child was 2 and she would try to speak Hebrew to everyone, regardless of whether we understood her. Once she started going to preschool, though, she quickly learned English.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Bilingualing your Baby
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 3:46 pm 
Offline
Seagull of the PPK
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 6:46 pm
Posts: 7836
Location: Brasil
was doing some research today and came across this page, which has some interesting links besides the content itself, if anyone is still considering it.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/lif ... s-consider
upshot, most bilingual kids start monolingual, so it ain't too late!
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/lif ... -bilingual

_________________
Buddha says 'Meh'.--matwinser
I'm just a drunk who likes fruit. -- Desdemona


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Bilingualing your Baby
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 3:54 pm 
Offline
***LIES!!!***
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2012 4:10 pm
Posts: 3697
What I have learned in studying linguistics is that kids can develop a "native language" until at least age 12. It might not be as easy for them to learn in the older range, but they can develop the same native fluency as with their other native language(s).

I am still speaking Hebrew to Malka. Today I got her to point to her ear and say ozen! That was awesome.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Bilingualing your Baby
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 4:06 pm 
Offline
WRETCHED
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 6:54 pm
Posts: 8461
Location: Maryland/DC area
I think part of the native language thing has a lot to do with speech as there are some sounds you can't make after a certain point?

I wish I was fully bilingual. I had a lot of spanish immersion from age 5 on including a great grandmother who didn't speak english. My great aunt who had down syndrome was a playmate as well and she didn't speak english but sadly her spanish vocabulary wasn't that great either. My grandparents spoke spanish between themselves but never to any of their kids and my mom only spoke spanish at work.

_________________
You are all a disgrace to vegans. Go f*ck yourselves, especially linanil.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Bilingualing your Baby
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 4:20 pm 
Offline
***LIES!!!***
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2012 4:10 pm
Posts: 3697
Yes, but there are very few sounds an adolescent can't learn to make. Accent can definitely be acquired into adolescence for most, though.

What defines a native language is the way that your brain responds to hearing mistakes in that language. When errors in syntax "just sound wrong." Native languages are stored in a different part of the brain and processed and learned differently than second languages. There are many people who can't make the correct sounds in their native languages because of auditory processing disorders and mechanical difficulties, but they are still native speakers.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Bilingualing your Baby
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 4:27 pm 
Offline
WRETCHED
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 6:54 pm
Posts: 8461
Location: Maryland/DC area
Butternut wrote:
torque wrote:
Well, we haven't given up, and actually worked on Japanese this morning. I am haunted by my grandmother, who has memories of her father speaking Gaelic as his first language but never speaking it to her because it was "not allowed in the house". .


So awful! My grandmother was spanked or slapped for speaking creole/French at public school in Louisiana. She didn't teach my mom how to speak her language, nor did any of her siblings to their kids.


My grandfather really thought that for his kids to be successful in this country, they really needed to speak english and english only. Although my grandparents spoke spanish between themselves, they never spoke it to any of the kids. One of my aunts eventually became a teacher and really needed to know spanish for her job so she went to Mexico for the summer and learned it. Between spanish language classes and what spanglish she knew, she was able to learn it fine. My mom grew up with enough spanish speakers that she learned spanish through friends and what not but didn't think it was important to teach me.

_________________
You are all a disgrace to vegans. Go f*ck yourselves, especially linanil.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Bilingualing your Baby
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 4:31 pm 
Offline
WRETCHED
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 6:54 pm
Posts: 8461
Location: Maryland/DC area
Ariann wrote:
Yes, but there are very few sounds an adolescent can't learn to make. Accent can definitely be acquired into adolescence for most, though.

What defines a native language is the way that your brain responds to hearing mistakes in that language. When errors in syntax "just sound wrong." Native languages are stored in a different part of the brain and processed and learned differently than second languages. There are many people who can't make the correct sounds in their native languages because of auditory processing disorders and mechanical difficulties, but they are still native speakers.

That makes sense, I just meant that I had read that there are certain sounds that you will most likely not be able to vocalize unless you have vocalized those sounds by a certain age. Not that this would only have to deal with speaking another language (possibly someone deaf learning to vocalize? speech therapy?).

_________________
You are all a disgrace to vegans. Go f*ck yourselves, especially linanil.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Bilingualing your Baby
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 4:35 pm 
Offline
Has it on Blue Vinyl
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2011 7:44 pm
Posts: 2144
linanil wrote:
Butternut wrote:
torque wrote:
Well, we haven't given up, and actually worked on Japanese this morning. I am haunted by my grandmother, who has memories of her father speaking Gaelic as his first language but never speaking it to her because it was "not allowed in the house". .


So awful! My grandmother was spanked or slapped for speaking creole/French at public school in Louisiana. She didn't teach my mom how to speak her language, nor did any of her siblings to their kids.


My grandfather really thought that for his kids to be successful in this country, they really needed to speak english and english only. Although my grandparents spoke spanish between themselves, they never spoke it to any of the kids. One of my aunts eventually became a teacher and really needed to know spanish for her job so she went to Mexico for the summer and learned it. Between spanish language classes and what spanglish she knew, she was able to learn it fine. My mom grew up with enough spanish speakers that she learned spanish through friends and what not but didn't think it was important to teach me.


Same thing here with my dad's dad. My father didn't learn Spanish as a child because of this. It was a real problem back then because kids got punished in schools for speaking Spanish, at least in Arizona. But later in life, his mother put him in a Spanish immersion program in Mexico and that's where he met my mom! :)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Bilingualing your Baby
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 4:51 pm 
Offline
Semen Strong
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 7:10 pm
Posts: 18850
Location: Cliffbar NJ
Kittee, thank you so much for your post! I can't believe I missed it last time. So helpful! <3

_________________
My oven is bigger on the inside, and it produces lots of wibbly wobbly, cake wakey... stuff. - The PoopieB.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Bilingualing your Baby
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 7:01 pm 
Offline
Inflexitarian
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2010 8:41 am
Posts: 731
Location: Atlanta, GA
Guineapiglet goes to a multilingual immersion school and has been going full-time (6-7 hours a day) since she was 3 months old. Her two primary teachers speak exclusively spanish, and she has a teacher who speaks mandarin with her 3 times a week and french once a week. My spanish is ok so I would speak spanish to her at home as well, which I started to cut back on a couple months ago when I realized that Spanish is her first language, and English is her second.

I was worried that her language wouldn't come along as fast because of speaking and understanding 4 languages but she's been fine. If anything I've noticed that the kids in her class who came along last in motor skills (rolled over last, crawled last, walked last, etc.) are the first to speak clearly and vice versa. Guineapiglet came along very quickly in motor skills - rolling over at 3 weeks, walking at 9 months, etc. and her counterparts that took longer to do these things speak much more clearly than she does. The fact that they are multilingual doesn't seem to be a factor. Immersion learning is absolutely the best way to learn a language at any age and when they are so young it is just second nature. It really isn't confusing to them to learn multiple languages at once because everything is brand new and they are blank slates if there are 4 names for one thing it doesn't seem confusing to them it's just the way it is. Kids who start the school at 1 or 2 years old seem to pick up the languages just as fast. One girl in her class just started 2 months ago. I asked her to do something in Spanish the other day and she executed it perfectly! It was as if the little girl had been speaking and understanding spanish her whole life.

I would say the most challenging part of raising a multilingual toddler is that I don't speak all the languages that she does. She was saying something to me the other day and was really animated about it and I thought it was just toddler garble and then when I went online to see what her mandarin teacher had been emphasizing that week I realized Guineapiglet had been speaking Mandarin to me. I felt bad because aside from the bare minimum basics I don't speak Mandarin so I completely missed an opportunity to communicate effectively with her.

_________________
Website Blog Facebook Twitter Books


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 61 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: tank and 5 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
Template made by DEVPPL/ThatBigForum and fancied up by What Cheer