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 Post subject: Re: Teen shot in Florida, 911 calls released.
PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 2:23 pm 
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FWIW, Geraldo's son is ashamed of him.

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 Post subject: Re: Teen shot in Florida, 911 calls released.
PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 5:37 pm 
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Holy shiitake, Imitation Of Chris! That's a thing?

I'm just beside myself with grief for this boy's family. I think the worst thing in the world would be burying a child. And this was just senseless. I hadn't heard Zimmerman's details before, but it makes it all the more horrifying.

Additionally, FWIW, I've found different races to be very racist toward other racists. Each race has its own stereotypes and pre-conceived notions. Adopting them is fact is not solely the purview of white folk. Not letting white folk off the hook of course, but just saying.

Also, my mom and I were talking about this, and she kept saying it was raining. Was it raining? I don't think the kid can be blamed for putting his hood up anyway. That's like saying I can expect to get raped if I dress sexy.

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 Post subject: Re: Teen shot in Florida, 911 calls released.
PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 6:33 pm 
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Geraldo's thing peas me off because I'll be damned if any person with less power should be told to be careful. I'm so sick of not holding perpetrators accountable for their actions. We should probably stop teaching people how to be safe and start teaching people how not to be dicks.

This entire thing has really forked me up. It's bad enough dealing with the thought of a little kid being gunned down, but it absolutely makes me sick to my stomach that so many people want to justify Zimmerman's actions with thinly veiled racism. I am so sick of victims being treated like shiitake because they don't have power in this country. I am so tired of people with a shitload of privilege trying to tell brown or female or gay people that America is all forking equality.

I think the hardest part for me is when people want to straight up deny that a problem exists. That is the worst kind of ignorance and racism. The kind that hides. I'd rather have a person hurl racial epithets at me than stand by my side until race is mentioned...and then they promptly tell me they "don't see color." Shut the fork up with that already.

It is really hard to explain the anger and frustration I feel over the massive volume of people who fail to acknowledge the problem. Grumble grumble.

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 Post subject: Re: Teen shot in Florida, 911 calls released.
PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 6:40 pm 
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mixmaster_mo wrote:
Geraldo's thing peas me off because I'll be damned if any person with less power should be told to be careful. I'm so sick of not holding perpetrators accountable for their actions. We should probably stop teaching people how to be safe and start teaching people how not to be dicks.

This entire thing has really forked me up. It's bad enough dealing with the thought of a little kid being gunned down, but it absolutely makes me sick to my stomach that so many people want to justify Zimmerman's actions with thinly veiled racism. I am so sick of victims being treated like shiitake because they don't have power in this country. I am so tired of people with a shitload of privilege trying to tell brown or female or gay people that America is all forking equality.

I think the hardest part for me is when people want to straight up deny that a problem exists. That is the worst kind of ignorance and racism. The kind that hides. I'd rather have a person hurl racial epithets at me than stand by my side until race is mentioned...and then they promptly tell me they "don't see color." Shut the fork up with that already.

It is really hard to explain the anger and frustration I feel over the massive volume of people who fail to acknowledge the problem. Grumble grumble.


Very well said, Mo. Just to add to the horror, after this story on the news they had a segment about the 'Stop and Frisk' law in NYC. One man was talking about being stopped and frisked, and his only crime was walking down the street while black. I forget the numbers, something like 50% of those stopped were African American, but only 7% of those people were arrested. Even so, you can't just stop and search people because they're 'suspicious' because a lot of 'suspicion' is thinly-veiled racism.

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 Post subject: Re: Teen shot in Florida, 911 calls released.
PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 7:42 pm 
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In addition to what everyone has already said about Geraldo's thing and why it is so incredibly problematic and forked up, I have a real problem with him paternalisticly lecturing minority parents about how their kids will be unfairly judged based on their appearance. As if they don't live with that knowledge every forking day.


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 Post subject: Re: Teen shot in Florida, 911 calls released.
PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:02 pm 
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elouise wrote:
In addition to what everyone has already said about Geraldo's thing and why it is so incredibly problematic and forked up, I have a real problem with him paternalisticly lecturing minority parents about how their kids will be unfairly judged based on their appearance. As if they don't live with that knowledge every forking day.

This is so true!

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 Post subject: Re: Teen shot in Florida, 911 calls released.
PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:30 pm 
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Check out Geraldo's Wikipedia page before it's changed again. The photo has been updated to something more appropriate.

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 Post subject: Re: Teen shot in Florida, 911 calls released.
PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:38 pm 
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Vantine wrote:
Check out Geraldo's Wikipedia page before it's changed again. The photo has been updated to something more appropriate.

I think it was changed back to normal but was this it?
Image

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 Post subject: Re: Teen shot in Florida, 911 calls released.
PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:42 pm 
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Tofulish wrote:
elouise wrote:
In addition to what everyone has already said about Geraldo's thing and why it is so incredibly problematic and forked up, I have a real problem with him paternalisticly lecturing minority parents about how their kids will be unfairly judged based on their appearance. As if they don't live with that knowledge every forking day.

This is so true!


I agree with this, and I don't like how Geraldo said what he said, but I think it can be helpful for people not impacted by these realities to understand that many people in this country do have to live like that.

Before I started subbing in some of these schools I had no idea wearing a hoodie could get a kid beat up, or worse. The kids know and live with that. They accept it and shrug it off. We can't change things if we all stay sheltered. I don't want to tell other people how they should react, but it bugs me that the kids seem to just accept stuff like that. Apathy in one area leads to apathy in other things.

I don't want to derail this thread, because none of this has fork all to do with this case. I really hope that this case doesn't become so politicized for various reasons that Trayvon himself is lost.

I really don't think there is any evidence right now one way or the other for this being a racially motivated shooting, but I think it would be really hard for anyone to seriously debate that if there was a dead white kid and a black shooter, the shooter would be in jail. Even Jeb Bush has come and said that the law he signed into effect doesn't apply here.

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 Post subject: Re: Teen shot in Florida, 911 calls released.
PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:56 pm 
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lavawitch wrote:
it bugs me that the kids seem to just accept stuff like that. Apathy in one area leads to apathy in other things.


I don't think it is that they just accept things. It is that there really isn't much they can do to change the circumstances from where they stand.

For example, NYC has a stop and frisk law that is on its face racially neutral, but is applied mostly to Black and Hispanic young men (80%). If you're the parent of a Black or Hispanic young man, you are telling your kid, "Yes its not fair, and yes, its a violation of your civil liberties, and yes you haven't done anything wrong, and yes, if you were white this wouldn't be happening to you, and yes, its scary, but if you don't shut up, and make nice during the stop, the police will find some reason to arrest you and may even kill you." And you know its true, because you've seen it happen to people. A friend of mine went to school with Sean Bell - and said he was a really sweet guy and that it sent a message that if someone like that can end up killed by the cops, you know you have to constantly watch yourself.

From the outside, it may look like Black and Hispanic men who just allow themselves to be stopped and frisked are "accepting" or apathetic, but the truth is that in their position they have no real options to fight the problem, they just have to find a way to survive.

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I really don't think there is any evidence right now one way or the other for this being a racially motivated shooting,


What would you want to see to believe it was racially motivated? Do you really think that if Trayvon had been a white kid in a hoodie, that Zimmerman would have seen him as an intruder and been talking about how "these crassholes always get away"?

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 Post subject: Re: Teen shot in Florida, 911 calls released.
PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:05 pm 
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Tofulish wrote:
Sean Bell

Did you see the news today that 4 of the officers who shot the car have finally been released from duty?
http://news.yahoo.com/nypd-forces-four- ... 20017.html

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 Post subject: Re: Teen shot in Florida, 911 calls released.
PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:17 pm 
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Only took 6 years :) And none of them will do any jail time for killing someone because they thought he might be going to get a gun from his car. It remains a horrible and sad case, and sadly probably not an unusual one - this case just got the attention because it was the day before his wedding, Sean Bell had no record etc.

If he'd had any record whatsoever, no one would have cared that he was shot without any real probable cause.

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 Post subject: Re: Teen shot in Florida, 911 calls released.
PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:21 pm 
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Did he use racial slurs? Does he have a history of racism? I k ow he has a history of wacko wanna-be-cop behavior. Out of all the suspicious people he has reported, were all or most black?

We don't know those answers (unless there is something new I haven't seen reported anywhere), so I don't think jumping to the assumption of racism is helpful right now. Obviously the issue needs to be addressed, and I have heard that the FBI is specifically investigating any possible racial motivation, so it isn't being ignored. He could well prove to have been racially motivated; I'm not suggesting otherwise. I'm definitely not going to disagree that if there were a dead white kid and a black shooter that the case would have been front page news from day one, not week three, and the shooter would be in jail.

I understand what you are saying about apathy. I was more referring to just giving up and living down to the standards society has set. Many students at my school drop out or give up because they say there is no point. They can fight back by doing the best they can for themselves. You cant fight being frisked, but you can go home and do your math homework. You can choose to get up and go to school the next day. Many students have horrible odds to fight; I'm not saying it is easy. Sometimes proving the crassholes wrong is the best revenge, isn't it?

I had a student recently accused of beating up another kid. He was chosen because he was in the area, was wearing a hoodie, and was black. He said there was no point arguing and wasn't even going to go get the receipts proving he was at a bowling alley at the time. He finally did and it was straightened out, but his whole attitude of "why bother" made it harder than it needed to be and dragged it out for a couple weeks. That is the sort of thing that frustrates me. I just see so many kids not want the best for themselves. And this particular kid had a lot to lose: he was just awarded a full ride football scholarship to a great school. Had he been expelled, he would have lost all that. Yet he saw no point in fighting his case because "nobody would believe him" until all his teachers did most of it for him? That is the sort of apathy I don't understand.

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 Post subject: Re: Teen shot in Florida, 911 calls released.
PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:36 pm 
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First, just because we don't have Zimmerman screaming racial slurs or attacking only black people doesn't mean that the attack on Trayvon wasn't racially motivated. Like I said above, if it had been a white kid in a hoodie, do you really think that Zimmerman would have been hunting him down?

Something isn't just racially motivated if the person committing the offense actually uses racial slurs etc. Here it is as simple as Zimmerman saw a black kid, and immediately started following him and assumed he was an intruder because he was black. Isn't that racially motivated ie motivated by the fact that Trayvon was black?

Second, saying you can fight the power by going to college and getting out of the situation isn't really fighting the power. Its escaping a bad situation, but the situation doesn't change, and you don't take your friends or family with you. You just escape by getting a better education and affording to live somewhere else.

I don't know if you read this piece If I were a Poor Black Kid but it really says a lot of what you are saying, ie from someone who is white, and middle class, it does look like there are tools to get out, so why don't more kids just take them? Study harder, get good grades, go to college etc. But it misses the fact that you're putting it on a kid to save themselves, and not acknowledging that you are requiring kids to think long-term like adults when they may have absolutely no support and guidance and may have significant challenges in doing that math homework, as well as just having the feeling that they aren't good enough to be the one anomalous case that escapes.

You don't understand the apathy because you've never had to live in a world where you are presumed to be guilty. Its hard to spend every day proving that you are worth paying attention to, worth helping, etc. Its exhausting. The world isn't set up to help you get ahead, like it is for middle-class kids - who have parents, teachers and a support system to help them develop into healthy adults.

I don't know what the solution is, but I find it problematic to blame poor students for not saving themselves and for their apathy in the face of some significant obstacles. When you blame the victim, you take the onus off society to find solutions to help these kids.

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Last edited by Tofulish on Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Teen shot in Florida, 911 calls released.
PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:38 pm 
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Some people believe that he called Martin a "forking coon." http://www.addictinginfo.org/2012/03/24 ... all-audio/

Also, it was reported that he was telling neighbors to look out for suspicious black males, and that he has a history of racism.

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 Post subject: Re: Teen shot in Florida, 911 calls released.
PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:56 pm 
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Mr. Shankly wrote:
Vantine wrote:
Check out Geraldo's Wikipedia page before it's changed again. The photo has been updated to something more appropriate.

I think it was changed back to normal but was this it?
Image


I shiitake you not--this was my fiance who did this!

ETA: Oof. I'm proud of the subversive way he made fun of Geraldo, but I'm not happy about anything in this thread--on second thought, it's pretty poor timing of me to pop in here with nothing but "hey, look at me!" Apologies--didn't want to derail.

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Last edited by tinglepants! on Sat Mar 24, 2012 10:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Teen shot in Florida, 911 calls released.
PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 10:01 pm 
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His neighbors reported, "Zimmerman went door-to-door asking residents to be on the lookout, specifically referring to young black men who appeared to be outsiders, and warned that some were caught lurking."

A neighborhood teenager, Teontae, stated that he and is friend, who is also black, "would sit at the end of the driveway in the evening and felt uncomfortable when Zimmerman would pass them on a neighborhood patrol." Zimmerman accused Travis Williams of stealing a bike and made him prove that he owned it with the bike's serial numbers.
http://www.policymic.com/articles/5755/ ... egory_list

He's also frequently called the cops on other black youth.
http://motherjones.com/politics/2012/03 ... -black-men

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 Post subject: Re: Teen shot in Florida, 911 calls released.
PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 10:16 pm 
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lavawitch wrote:
Did he use racial slurs? Does he have a history of racism? I k ow he has a history of wacko wanna-be-cop behavior. Out of all the suspicious people he has reported, were all or most black?


In addition to what Tofulish said above, I think it's worth noting that while Zimmerman's racism may not have been obvious enough to be quantified with evidence of "incidents"--and indeed while he may not even be conscious of his deep-seated racism--that whether or not he's aware of his intentions, there exists a context larger than him. The racist motivations do exist, and have existed throughout our country's entire history. And because the context is larger than Zimmerman, there's even more reason to point to it as a factor in his actions. It doesn't get diluted simply because he's not the only one.

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 Post subject: Re: Teen shot in Florida, 911 calls released.
PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 10:26 pm 
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Sadly, I don't think you'd have to be the kind of racist who shouts racial slurs to kill a person of color. You just have to be raised in a society that tells you that non-whites are other and that their presence in your neighborhood is suspicious, and that the thing they have in their pocket could very well be a weapon. This reminds me of African-Americans who have been killed for heinous crimes like carrying around their own wallet, candy bars, television remotes, baguettes, etc.

I'm a short white woman. Society tells me that I have lots of things to worry about, but getting shot for wearing a hoodie and carrying candy is not one of them.

Zimmerman sounds like a nut, but that doesn't detract from how perceptions of race contributed to Martin's murder and the way police have handled the case.

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 Post subject: Re: Teen shot in Florida, 911 calls released.
PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 10:30 pm 
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Lavawitch, some of your commentary is offensive. I find it sort of insulting to say it frustrates you that a kid (who actually has to live with the bullshiitake society throws at him) has given up. This is really hard for a lot of people. And if you are poor and brown, society makes you very aware of it everyday of your life.

I just don't understand why people are unwilling to address racism if racial slurs aren't involved. The simple fact is that most people in this country do not see a white kid in a hoodie as suspicious. And that is beyond the fact that the police are doing nothing now. And that is beyond the fact that black men are statistically placed in prison at a higher rate than white men for the same crimes. And that is beyond the fact that most cases like this involving minority victims don't make it to national awareness.

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 Post subject: Re: Teen shot in Florida, 911 calls released.
PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 10:30 pm 
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I get everything that you are saying, I do, and I also recognize that my thoghts on these issues is as an onlooker. But ignoring all of the helpful programs and mentoring and resources that come to the kids in order to drop out doesn't help anyone. I'm not talking about college and "getting out." Our school is very fortunate to have huge budgets for intervention. We have teams of intervention teachers and dozens of tailored programs, so nobody is expecting the kids to do it all themselves. They do have to make the choice to get on the bus each morning. There are also flexible alternative school programs that help kids who have to work or have other family issues.

I was going to delete all of that because I don't want to derail this thread, but I feel like people are thinking I'm an uncaring oblivious Pollyanna bisque here with an unrealistic view of things. Maybe some of that is true, but I spend a lot of time trying to help kids who are at-risk for various reasons, and it just isn't a cut and dried issue. I don't know why some care and some don't. I can help the kids who will accept the help.

But with Zimmerman: he called 911 to report over 40 suspicious people. If he was just calling on anyone and everyone, he probably wasn't racially motivated. Right now, I have no idea who he was calling on. Everything I've seen or read suggest that he was a ticking time bomb with a loaded gun and delusions of being some hot shiitake crime fighter. If he has been calling only to report black people as suspicious, then I also want to know why the police were not investigating that as problematic on top of all the other issues. Do we have to assume that he was racially motivated in order to acknowledge that racism is a real widespread problem?

I definitely think the RESPONSE of the authorities was racially motivated. I think focusing the dialogue there until we know more about Zimmerman is more productive, because the response is a real problem, and would probably have happened almost anywhere. I can see the same thing happening in DC or Richmond. Definitely Richmond.

FWIW, I do understand being written off as worthless at school. For a different reason than skin color, and I had a supportive family, but back in the 80s, if you had a diagnosis of any sort of mental illness, you were disposable to the schools. Anything you did was a sign of "instability." Home bound teachers would refuse to work with "mental" students. I was lucky to have other support, but I barely graduated and the school was not only unsupportive, they were openly hostile. It is forking exhausting. There are reasons I took so long to go back to school; it was not a safe place.

Everybody has a different experience and we can't speak for anyone else, but there are some common overlaps that we can use to help relate to each other. I try to learn from the challenges that many of my students face and how well they adapt to them. Most kids are really resilient, admirable people.

This is a hard dialogue to have via text. Again, I'm not saying Zimmerman wasn't racially motivated. There is a large chance he was. All I am saying is I don't feel comfortable saying he was until we know more. Does it add anything to the dialogue to assume that he was racially motivated? I think it is obvious that all of the official response was racist, unjust, and all around wrong.

At this point, we have the former governor of Florida, the guy who signed in the stand your ground bill saying that it does t apply. So why haven't they gone back and charged Zimmerman? That is still the big issue here.

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 Post subject: Re: Teen shot in Florida, 911 calls released.
PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 10:30 pm 
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Mother Jones had an article about the fact that the NRA is pushing to enact "stand your ground" laws in all 50 states to protect gun owners.

I wonder why we never have a conversation about gun ownership in this country. Even after the Gabriel Giffords shooting, there was no national call for a re-evaluation of our gun access policies. I don't see why gun ownership is seen as so sacrosanct. I don't know of any other country where gun ownership is seen as being nearly as important as free speech, a right to privacy etc. Can we just agree that the US is no longer the frontier or the Wild West, and the practically unfettered "right to bear arms" we have has an unacceptably high cost of human life?

http://motherjones.com/mojo/2012/03/nra-trayvon-martin

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 Post subject: Re: Teen shot in Florida, 911 calls released.
PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 10:35 pm 
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And finally,

Black man shoots white man, claims justification under Stand Your Ground.

Trevor Dooley (71), says he shot 41-year-old David James because he thought James was going to kill him. He’s using a statute in Florida known as the Stand Your Ground law to try and get the charges against him dropped. It all started on a neighborhood basketball court in a suburb of Tampa. The two men got into an altercation over a teenager skateboarding on the court. Dooley was shouting at the teenager to get off the court, and James intervened. After a struggle, Dooley shot James once in the heart.

It is going to be interesting to see if Stand Your Ground protects black shooters who have white victims.

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 Post subject: Re: Teen shot in Florida, 911 calls released.
PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 10:40 pm 
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mixmaster_mo wrote:
Lavawitch, some of your commentary is offensive. I find it sort of insulting to say it frustrates you that a kid (who actually has to live with the bullshiitake society throws at him) has given up. This is really hard for a lot of people. And if you are poor and brown, society makes you very aware of it everyday of your life.

I just don't understand why people are unwilling to address racism if racial slurs aren't involved. The simple fact is that most people in this country do not see a white kid in a hoodie as suspicious. And that is beyond the fact that the police are doing nothing now. And that is beyond the fact that black men are statistically placed in prison at a higher rate than white men for the same crimes. And that is beyond the fact that most cases like this involving minority victims don't make it to national awareness.


I don't mean to be offensive, so your telling me why and how I am being is very helpful. I am trying to understand the nuances of this dialog, because I am clearly not understanding.

Part of my job is trying to help kids graduate; when I can't help them, it frustrates me. That frustration is not at them--it is because I feel inadequate to help them, and that is one of the most frustrating feelings I deal with on a daily basis and I feel that I have failed them, and I know that I am just another in the line of people who have failed them.

I do think some of my comments are being misunderstood. I have not said there isn't racism in this case; clearly it is ludicrous to think otherwise. I said above somewhere that I think without a doubt that if it had been a white kid, it wouldnt have taken three weeks to make national news.

Perhaps you are right and it is just a difference of not experiencing racism. I hear someone reported 40 people, and I assume 40 random people.

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 Post subject: Re: Teen shot in Florida, 911 calls released.
PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 10:47 pm 
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Mr. Shankly wrote:
Some people believe that he called Martin a "forking coon." http://www.addictinginfo.org/2012/03/24 ... all-audio/

Also, it was reported that he was telling neighbors to look out for suspicious black males, and that he has a history of racism.


Thanks for posting that. I heard on the radio news yesterday that the tapes were being enhanced but what they played didn't have any of that coming through.

eta: I'm sorry that I'm struggling to articulate this properly, but I think the crux of my question with all of this is why is Zimmerman's motivation the big issue here? It is the police, the DA who decided the case wasn't chargeable who have been treating the case unfairly all along. Why isn't the loudest charge of racism being directed at them? Zimmerman had reasonable expectation of being able to get away with this shooting because of this. Another shooter has reasonable expectation of being able to get away with this. Now that it is obvious that charges should be filed, they still aren't? Why?

At this pont, I'll stop trying to articulate what I mean since I am clearly failing, so I will just listen to the dialogue. (not a flounce! I'm still in the thread and may post more if there a reason to, but I have more to gain from reading your posts than you have from reading mine)

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Last edited by lavawitch on Sat Mar 24, 2012 10:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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