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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 6:50 am 
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i refused hep b at birth too

tinglepants! wrote:
appifanie wrote:
I'm glad I've done it the way I have - delayed vaxing, no more than 2 at a time (man they want to bully me into like 4 at a time sometimes). she's still only had 1 hep b vax and she hasn't had varicella but aside from that i think she's totally up to date.


Do doctors normally do the hep b vaccine before they do varicella? That kind of surprises me. (that's no comment on delayed-vaxing--I really am just surprised that hep b would be first in the rounds).


I don't know - i imagine they don't - it's just that at her last appointment i got her 2 other shots that I wanted more than I wanted varicella at the time (boosters for stuff - dtap maybe? the older she gets the less I remember what shots she gets w/o checking her records)

Vantine wrote:
My experience was that my son had a harder time with vaccinations once he was old enough to know what they were. As a baby, it was pretty much one cry and done. Last time they offered his chicken pox vaccination, he said "let's do this." It was done in a second.


so true!

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 8:04 am 
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Vi was born at home, so we didn't get the Hep B then and instead she had it at 2 or 4 months or something. I read a little bit about it and came to the conclusion that it's done at birth because the babies most at risk are the ones who won't be back for those regular vaccinations.

I had different, but similar non-vaccine related experiences as ISYBB with the military hospitals.. They really aren't set up to deal with concepts like informed consent and patient choice. I had the best experience when I would use neutral language like "are there other treatment options?"

We found a great civilian pediatrician (and need to find another one once we get to California and probably take her to the base clinic for the brief time we're here, sigh), but they were sometimes out of vaccines. I got a flu shot when Vi was too young this year, but once she was old enough at her 6 checkup, they were out of the baby-safe kind. At least flu season is more or less over now..


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 9:14 am 
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Just read this
http://digg.com/newsbar/topnews/infant_ ... m_symptoms


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 9:26 am 
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littlebear wrote:

Hope that you'll follow that up with these to give more information about why the article you linked to is bollocks:
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/ind ... -research/
http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/2008/0 ... s-stinker/
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2008/ ... search.php

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 9:37 am 
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littlebear wrote:


They're still defending Wakefield? Who straight-up made up everything his paper is based on?

Their credibility is ZERO.

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:18 am 
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Sorry guys, just saw that quickly as I was getting ready, figured there was better science and I was planning to look into it further when I had time. You guys are awesome. Grey is up to date on all vaccines besides hep b, we are finishing it at a year. Many of his friends are unvaxed though.


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:42 pm 
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solipsistnation wrote:
Mothering is an AWFUL forum, full of people who I suspect shouldn't be allowed to raise children-- or at least the anti-vax forums are. I read it when I want to experience apoplectic rage.

I agree it's an awful forum, but I see how people get sucked into it, because I did. I'd say it's practically a cult.
Not only am I talking about the vaccine forum, but just the whole unattainable standard of motherhood. Like, you must be meeting their every possible need at every possible second. It seems to me basically that for them, the mother who suffers the most wins. Once I let go of the mothering ideals I became a much happier and easier going parent.

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:56 pm 
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Just wanted to add that I've since found another parenting forum that I love. It's actually a spin-off from MDC, where a group of them basically said, "fork all this wooey shiitake, let's skedaddle." It's pro-vax, mostly atheist, and liberal (pro-choice, LGBT friendly). If anybody wants the link feel free to PM me.

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:08 pm 
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Kudos if you're linking people back to The Playground.

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:15 pm 
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Fee wrote:
Kudos if you're linking people back to The Playground.

Haha. The playground is awesome, but sometimes it's nice to have a whole forum where everyone is a parent.
Just trying to give people a MDC alternative, not a PPK alternative.

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:40 pm 
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keen_on_quinoa wrote:
solipsistnation wrote:
Mothering is an AWFUL forum, full of people who I suspect shouldn't be allowed to raise children-- or at least the anti-vax forums are. I read it when I want to experience apoplectic rage.

I agree it's an awful forum, but I see how people get sucked into it, because I did. I'd say it's practically a cult.
Not only am I talking about the vaccine forum, but just the whole unattainable standard of motherhood. Like, you must be meeting their every possible need at every possible second. It seems to me basically that for them, the mother who suffers the most wins. Once I let go of the mothering ideals I became a much happier and easier going parent.


Sounds like this:


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:46 pm 
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solipsistnation wrote:
keen_on_quinoa wrote:
solipsistnation wrote:
Mothering is an AWFUL forum, full of people who I suspect shouldn't be allowed to raise children-- or at least the anti-vax forums are. I read it when I want to experience apoplectic rage.

I agree it's an awful forum, but I see how people get sucked into it, because I did. I'd say it's practically a cult.
Not only am I talking about the vaccine forum, but just the whole unattainable standard of motherhood. Like, you must be meeting their every possible need at every possible second. It seems to me basically that for them, the mother who suffers the most wins. Once I let go of the mothering ideals I became a much happier and easier going parent.


Sounds like this:


Haha, yep. Sounds about right.

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:52 pm 
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I have to admit that when I was pregnant, I hung out in MDC quite a bit. I never posted, but I felt very comfortable over there. I felt like this was the type of mother I was supposed to be. They do a very good job of welcoming you in if you believe in their Ideals. Once I actually had a child in my arms though, it all changed. Sure, I still do a lot of things that I guess you would consider "crunchy" (extended bfing, babywearing, cloth diapers, cosleeping, etc.), but I don't think everything is out to get me.

I remember after having Ezra, going over there looking for support in the VBAC section. I really shouldn't have done that. People who had VBACs against all odds (twins, breeches, 72-hour labors, travelling back and forth between three hospitals because she wasn't happy with treatment until giving birth in a parking lot - yes, I really read that one) were touted as fantastic mothers. The women who had CBACs (planned or not), decided to birth in hospital, get pain meds, or anything else that didn't fit their ideals, were quickly hushed and ignored. I really think reading that forum made my depression worse. How can you win when their standards are so high?

I don't mean any offense, but what really got to me over there were the names. When a woman has eight kids, all named after the phases of the moon... I mean, you have to wonder about them and where they get their scientific information.


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 2:02 pm 
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flavabean wrote:
I have to admit that when I was pregnant, I hung out in MDC quite a bit. I never posted, but I felt very comfortable over there. I felt like this was the type of mother I was supposed to be. They do a very good job of welcoming you in if you believe in their Ideals. Once I actually had a child in my arms though, it all changed. Sure, I still do a lot of things that I guess you would consider "crunchy" (extended bfing, babywearing, cloth diapers, cosleeping, etc.), but I don't think everything is out to get me.

I remember after having Ezra, going over there looking for support in the VBAC section. I really shouldn't have done that. People who had VBACs against all odds (twins, breeches, 72-hour labors, travelling back and forth between three hospitals because she wasn't happy with treatment until giving birth in a parking lot - yes, I really read that one) were touted as fantastic mothers. The women who had CBACs (planned or not), decided to birth in hospital, get pain meds, or anything else that didn't fit their ideals, were quickly hushed and ignored. I really think reading that forum made my depression worse. How can you win when their standards are so high?

I don't mean any offense, but what really got to me over there were the names. When a woman has eight kids, all named after the phases of the moon... I mean, you have to wonder about them and where they get their scientific information.


Yeah, the lengths some of the mothers will go to to match the mothering ideal can be really, really scary and downright stupid. And, you're right, there's no support for those who "fall short" of the ideal (you know, those who decide not to risk their or their baby's life). I'm talking about the VBAC forum and especially the UC forum. Crazycakes.

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 2:10 pm 
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I've never spent too much time there, but I was quickly turned off after reading about risky unattended births.... I just don't understand how someone can decide that it's safe to birth at home without any birth professional in attendance after being told that they are too risky for a home birth with a midwife. That is just completely nuts.


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 2:16 pm 
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UC really scares me. Really really really scares me. Especially VBACs in that situation. I believe that 95% of the times in birth, things will be ok, but (and I know this is the same argument people use against homebirth...) what if something happens?
It's the laissez-faire "Trust Birth" attitude that you see over there that I just can't handle. I don't trust birth, I trust the healthcare providers and my birth team that I've chosen to help me through this. And I trust that my body can do what it's made to do with limited intervention, but that I might need assistance if something seems out of the norm.


(At the same time, I feel horrible for the handful of people out there who have started anti-homebirthing blogs due to a tragic homebirth of their own. Most of them seem the MDC type before they lost a baby, but then they go the extreme opposite and think that anyone who chooses not to have a hospital birth is a horrible people and deserves to have their baby taken away from them. There can definitely be a middle ground there - the choice doesn't have to be either being hooked up to every medical instrument imaginable or squating in the woods.)


Last edited by flavabean on Wed Apr 11, 2012 2:20 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 2:16 pm 
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Yeah, we were/are "alternative" in some ways (extended cosleeping, extended nursing), and "traditional" in others (vax, hospital birth by choice, understanding that NO ONE can meet a child's EVERY need).

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 2:19 pm 
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I find the woo-filled, Mothering cult to be extremely sexist. It's all about setting the mother up to meet unreasonable standards so she can be judged as less than adequate. "You didn't give birth at home while listening to whale calls? Oh..." There's little pressure on the fathers; it's all about making the mom seek out an unreasonable ideal. Sort of like Cosmo but with hippies and homeopathy.

Best line from that cartoon? "Holy shiitake, do you know how disease works?"

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 2:36 pm 
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It is totally sexist.
I'm all for the middle ground now. Breastfeeding is great, but it can be hard and exhausting, and formula is food too. Co-sleeping can work if it's done properly, but can be dangerous and doesn't work for everyone. Homebirths can be nice if you're low risk, close to hospital, have a qualified attendant, and you're willing to transfer at the first sign of a problem, but hospitals aren't as evil as they're made out to be. Vaccines aren't the devil and won't make your kid autistic. Dads can be parents, too (which is a mind-blowing concept for some on mothering). Kids won't turn into zombies if they watch a little TV every day. They won't drop dead from non-organic produce or plastic toys. They won't be scarred for life if you leave them with capable caregivers to get some time for yourself.
Sometimes I'd really like to go over there, give everyone a good shake, and tell them to mellow the fork out.

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 2:57 pm 
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keen_on_quinoa wrote:
It is totally sexist.
I'm all for the middle ground now. Breastfeeding is great, but it can be hard and exhausting, and formula is food too. Co-sleeping can work if it's done properly, but can be dangerous and doesn't work for everyone. Homebirths can be nice if you're low risk, close to hospital, have a qualified attendant, and you're willing to transfer at the first sign of a problem, but hospitals aren't as evil as they're made out to be. Vaccines aren't the devil and won't make your kid autistic. Dads can be parents, too (which is a mind-blowing concept for some on mothering). Kids won't turn into zombies if they watch a little TV every day. They won't drop dead from non-organic produce or plastic toys. They won't be scarred for life if you leave them with capable caregivers to get some time for yourself.
Sometimes I'd really like to go over there, give everyone a good shake, and tell them to mellow the fork out.


+1 yummy


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 3:20 pm 
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Vantine wrote:
I find the woo-filled, Mothering cult to be extremely sexist. It's all about setting the mother up to meet unreasonable standards so she can be judged as less than adequate.


It's gender essentialism. It's the kind of sexism that puts women on a pedestal so it can tear them down better (and also so that women can become better enforcers of patriarchy so that we police ourselves). Women are life-givers, so if you're going to really be a woman, you have to be the ideal life-giver (which means out in the woods, everything done on your own, etc.) I think that can be very alluring for some women who feel that they "fail" at the more conventional goals set for women (looking like a model).


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 4:31 pm 
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So Mothering magazine is a tool of the patriarchy?

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 4:34 pm 
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keen_on_quinoa wrote:
Dads can be parents, too (which is a mind-blowing concept for some on mothering).


YES. Dang, I dislike that whole concept.

I hadn't really looked at it as sexist, though-- that's an interesting (and I think correct) way to view it. Mostly I just find it annoying.

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 4:42 pm 
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haha oyyy I have spent some time looking at the VBAC support forums over at Mothering too and kinda quickly determined it may not be the best place for me. That's ok but I gotta say: right on, keen_on_quinoa! Too much smug bullshiitake going on over there entirely. I hadn't thought all that much about the sexist angle of it all too.

on a similar note (actually NOT!), I have an acquaintance who had a horrible, horrible experience during her planned birth with the birthing center midwives I used last time. Ultimately her baby died; she claims it was from the baby being stuck in her birth canal for too long. She blames the midwives because she insists they prevented her from coming to the birthing center when it was time by telling her they could tell by her breathing and being able to speak on the phone that she wasn't in active labor yet. (It was also during Thanksgiving weekend so she's accused them of not wanting to cut their vacations short.) She has started all kindsa internet campaigns against them (stuff like ________ and _______ from The Brooklyn Birthing Center and Doula _______ _________ MURDERED MY BABY!) and is suing them I guess. I cannot fathom what she is going through; this was a first-time mother so I can't help but understand how much faith she had in them and how she relied on their judgment. It's a horrible situation all around and I feel like an awful person for thinking this - but perhaps she should've insisted on coming in or even gone to an emergency room somewhere. I just don't know what to think.


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 4:45 pm 
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eep sorry for getting so off-topic. I've kinda wanted to share that story somewhere lately but am uncomfortable for many reasons doing so.


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