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 Post subject: Re: Sweet dreams (advice/questions about kid sleep)
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 4:17 pm 
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Malka's sleep is getting worse instead of better. She hasn't had any evidence of teething recently, but after last night, I am suspecting that her increased night waking might be related to teething. She didn't sleep all day, then was kvetchy around 9:30 and couldn't get settled so I put her in the Moby for some skin-to-skin/swaddling/movement and she eventually fell asleep and stayed asleep for about an hour and a half, then woke up and was impossible to settle for another couple hours. Finally we got her to take a bottle and we put Tylenol in it hoping that would solve whatever her problem was. She fell asleep at 12:45 then WOKE UP AGAIN at 1:30 (what the fizzle?) and was rolly and kicky and needing to be snuggled back to sleep again all night. When she woke up for real this morning she was clingy and needy and whiny and she usually wakes up really happy and smiley. Ugh, hope there's a tooth in there.


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 Post subject: Re: Sweet dreams (advice/questions about kid sleep)
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 9:48 pm 
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poopiebitch wrote:
I am genuinely impressed and happy for those of you who have a helpful partner. It is really hard being the only one who is willing or able to do any care taking, especially when it comes to sleep (or lack thereof, haha). I know it probably doesn't feel like much when you do the bulk of the childcare, though. You're all superstars, and you're all doing a wonderful job caring for your babies. It's okay to complain, and it's okay to feel fed up sometimes, because this job is anything but easy. Those who still have young babies, hang in there. Wherever you are in your sleep situation, it definitely gets easier.


so true on all counts

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 Post subject: Re: Sweet dreams (advice/questions about kid sleep)
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2012 4:24 pm 
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Bless my husband. Bean asleep at 630, up @ 715, 815, 900 and now just before ten. Pappa settled her earlier, then was too scared to move and wake her. Took this last round too so I could pack up leftovers, hang the laundry (pooped on bedding) and wash bottles. A glamorous life we lead.

In the midst of this...a full on giggle while she was sleeping. Hee


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 Post subject: Re: Sweet dreams (advice/questions about kid sleep)
PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 7:53 pm 
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So I'm guilty of nursing babynut to sleep and leaving her in the middle of my queen-sized bed while she naps. I know this is dangerous and now that she is rolling more and more, I'm thinking of getting a safety rail. Anyone use those on their adult bed? Other solutions? I can't put my mattress on the floor or push it to a wall. Moving her after she is asleep is fraught with the possibility of waking her up (very light sleeper).


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 Post subject: Re: Sweet dreams (advice/questions about kid sleep)
PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 8:03 pm 
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We have two 48" safety rails on our bed (either side but not the bottom), but she can already pull herself up on them, so they aren't much protection. They were kind of pricey, but we were hoping to avoid needing to move the bed to the floor (which is going to be inevitable sadly).
http://www.amazon.com/Products-Universa ... 15&sr=1-23

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 Post subject: Re: Sweet dreams (advice/questions about kid sleep)
PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 8:26 pm 
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We had bedrails, but there still was kind of a gap between the mattress and the rails, so they didn't seem that safe/helpful. Then we bought a new mattress which was taller than our old one and the rails only came up a couple inches higher than the bed, so that was a bust. We just don't leave her in bed alone anymore, we deal with the possibility of waking her when we move her.


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 Post subject: Re: Sweet dreams (advice/questions about kid sleep)
PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 5:39 pm 
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Oh, I hadn't even thought about when she will try to climb over! I can't imagine her doing that but I guess that is in my future.

Today I moved her to the bassinet and she opened her eyes and looked at me....then closed them again and slept for an hour. Phew!


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 Post subject: Re: Sweet dreams (advice/questions about kid sleep)
PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 6:18 pm 
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We used the rails for a while, but yeah, they are useless once the little one starts to pull themselves up. Still, I was glad to have them for a while early on when I was afraid Lydia would roll off the bed.


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 Post subject: Re: Sweet dreams (advice/questions about kid sleep)
PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 7:34 pm 
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I am so amazed by all of the amazingly selfless mothers on this board. You all are goddesses!!!

I have a crappy sleeper too! He is 15 months now and things have gotten better. But, man, it was a long long road. I don't know how people have more then one baby. I can't imagine having to go through it all again. I suppose we forget....otherwise everyone would only have one kid.

All of your babies are so lucky to have mommy's like all of you.


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 Post subject: Re: Sweet dreams (advice/questions about kid sleep)
PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 9:11 pm 
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We have the same bedrail as tofulish linked. Our bed is so high up and I am also guilty of nursing wolverine to sleep in the bed to sleep and leaving him. I know that the rail isn't a total waste because it keeps me in the bed. The babe sleeps in between us so I am the one next to the rail. He is constantly pushing me up against the rail. Without that thing I would have ended up on the floor many times!


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 Post subject: Re: Sweet dreams (advice/questions about kid sleep)
PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 11:14 pm 
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Is anyone reading Healthy Sleep Habits, Healthy Child?


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 Post subject: Re: Sweet dreams (advice/questions about kid sleep)
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 7:49 am 
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kimba wrote:
Is anyone reading Healthy Sleep Habits, Healthy Child?


I LOVE that book!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It changed my life. When I first had my baby I had no idea that babies had to learn how to sleep and that learning to fall asleep was a skill. I thought babies just slept when they were tired. WOW, was I wrong! Anyway, after reading that book I understood all the reasons why my babe did not sleep and could not sleep. I implemented everything in the book and my baby started to nap regularly and sleep better at night. The early bedtime is key!


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 Post subject: Re: Sweet dreams (advice/questions about kid sleep)
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 2:13 pm 
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Does it really suggest leaving your child to cry to sleep, full stop? (this is one of the charges I've heard leveled against the book, but I've not read it yet...it's not big here at all yet)


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 Post subject: Re: Sweet dreams (advice/questions about kid sleep)
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 7:36 pm 
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refinnej wrote:
Does it really suggest leaving your child to cry to sleep, full stop? (this is one of the charges I've heard leveled against the book, but I've not read it yet...it's not big here at all yet)


Yes, he does suggest letting them cry it out in some situations. It is called extinction. It is a lot like the Ferber method only it works faster because there is no checking in on the baby. I tried that with my baby and it would just get him worked up. BUT, it is very hard to do. I am not sure I could ever do it again, I was just so sleep deprived and I saw no other way. My baby never cried more then 20 mins.

UGH!! Now I am feeling guilty........


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 Post subject: Re: Sweet dreams (advice/questions about kid sleep)
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 8:16 am 
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Bonnie480 wrote:
refinnej wrote:
Does it really suggest leaving your child to cry to sleep, full stop? (this is one of the charges I've heard leveled against the book, but I've not read it yet...it's not big here at all yet)


Yes, he does suggest letting them cry it out in some situations. It is called extinction. It is a lot like the Ferber method only it works faster because there is no checking in on the baby. I tried that with my baby and it would just get him worked up. BUT, it is very hard to do. I am not sure I could ever do it again, I was just so sleep deprived and I saw no other way. My baby never cried more then 20 mins.

UGH!! Now I am feeling guilty........


Don't feel guilty for doing what worked for you and your kid! Easier said than done, right?

Anyway, the book has some different directions for different ages. You get on more of a schedule around four months. It still allows for night wakenings where you feed the baby and then go back to sleep. Those awakenings I guess are just supposed to dissapear. For me at three months, when I started with the book it was more about establishing naps. He isn't supposed to be awake for more than two hours at a time. That doesn't always work, especially in the evening, but just paying attention to the time and his nap needs allowed him to get more sleep during the day AND at night! He used to not fallasleep until 12:30-1:30, but now he sleeps by 10:30 (without having to use crying it out). At four months he is supposed to start going to sleep by seven.

I think the book is helpful even if you dont want to do the crying part, but I think there are situations where everyone is suffering if baby doesn't get sleep and some this works for some families.


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 Post subject: Re: Sweet dreams (advice/questions about kid sleep)
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 9:18 am 
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Kimba, I totally agree. The ideas he gives about the nap schedules and bedtime schedules is what really helped me. I still use that schedule....naps at 9 and 1, then bedtime at 7. When he was younger around 4-5 months knowing that a 2 hour wakeful time was all that a colicky baby could handle was something I had never known before. So when you learn this you can help get the baby to sleep without having to do the cry it out part. He also explains how a baby crying is not always so bad?????? It makes you feel a little better about it when you have to let your baby cry in order for sleep to come. Ick....so glad those days are over. Tough times!


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 Post subject: Re: Sweet dreams (advice/questions about kid sleep)
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 9:48 am 
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tank wrote:
We have the same bedrail as tofulish linked.... I know that the rail isn't a total waste because it keeps me in the bed.

you'll use it when the kid moves from crib to big kid bed anyway (maybe) so not a total loss..

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 Post subject: Re: Sweet dreams (advice/questions about kid sleep)
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 10:53 am 
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See, this makes no sense to me. I don't understand the idea that babies don't know how to sleep. Obviously babies know how to sleep - they sleep in the womb, even! It makes more sense to say that babies don't know how to sleep on a schedule or how to fall asleep without soothing, but it's not like the schedule we've chosen for babies is some kind of scientific truism, nor is the idea that babies should sleep unattached to their parents. It's all cultural - there are some cultures that think babies should stay up as late as everybody else in the family, for example (it is really a "problem" if my baby doesn't go to sleep until midnight? why?). And there are cultures that think sleeping separately is really weird, so the idea of training a baby to fall asleep in a room all by herself just seems odd to me if it's being done in the name of "health." It seems like that might be a good thing to do to promote sleeping "success" in our culture, but it has nothing to do with healthy sleep in general.

I'm reminded of the time one of my sisters spent a summer with a family in a rural area in Botswana and the agency that arranged the family stay explained to the family beforehand that my sister would need her own room to sleep in. When she arrived, the family set up a room for her, but they asked her over and over again if she was sure that she wanted to sleep by herself and not in the family sleep room because they were personally terrified of the idea of sleeping alone, it seemed totally bizarre to them.

All that being said, I wouldn't mind it if my baby went to sleep a few hours earlier and could stay asleep in her own crib for a nicer stretch of time, because I want to sleep in a bed with my husband without a baby between us the whole night (otherwise she will likely be our first and last baby!). I don't think it's pathological, though, for us to bring the baby into bed with us when she wakes up in the middle of the night and wants to be cuddled - that seems totally appropriate if the goal is to make her feel loved, safe, etc. I like to be cuddled to sleep, too! Why would that be a nice thing for an adult and an "unhealthy" thing for a baby? I just bought the No-Cry Sleep Solution, we'll see how it goes. The big upside of this book is that it seems fully supportive of a variety of sleeping arrangements and doesn't say babies must always sleep on their own.

In happy Malka news, she went to sleep at about 12:15 last night and stayed asleep until almost 6! She had a bottle, went back to sleep till about 9, needed to be re-cuddled back to sleep, and then woke up at 10 for real. I'm glad we're back to the 5-6 hour stretch of sleep, it makes a big difference in my ability to function in the morning.


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 Post subject: Re: Sweet dreams (advice/questions about kid sleep)
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 12:07 pm 
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One of the things he said was that babies, when they become more social, want to stay up instead of sleep. Also he talks about when the baby develops a circadian rhythm. It doesn't seem like his advice is based so much on culture as research, which is what he bases the time on. It doesn't say anything about it being unhealthy to bring baby into bed with you when they wakeup in the middle of the night, so I am not sure where you are getting that idea from. I nusre the baby and he falls right back asleep and then I put him back in the cosleeper. I do think babies sleep better if they are not in the parents bed, but there are probably babies that sleep better with the parents. Say babies know how to sleep, do we know to let them? Before I read the book I didnt realize how much sleep my baby needed and wanted.

Anyway, there are things that I dont necessarily agree with in the book. It seems like every sleep expert wants to slam other methods, which I think is not very helpful. I think this book does that and so do recommendations from Dr Sears. Both have something to offer.


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 Post subject: Re: Sweet dreams (advice/questions about kid sleep)
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 1:23 pm 
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kimba wrote:
One of the things he said was that babies, when they become more social, want to stay up instead of sleep. Also he talks about when the baby develops a circadian rhythm. It doesn't seem like his advice is based so much on culture as research, which is what he bases the time on.


Sure, I want to stay up, too. What I'm wondering is if it matters. Why would it be worse for a baby to stay up and then sleep later into the morning? Adults reset their circadian rhythms daily, so I imagine babies do as well, and our rhythms are both innate and patterned after our habits rather than purely innate. I find it unlikely that my child, who is the progeny of two people who operate best going to bed late and getting up late (despite years of attempting to make it otherwise), would necessarily fall into some kind of generalization of when babies should sleep. Different people sleep best differently. Babies are people. Now if the day comes when my husband goes back to work and can't happily sleep in with the baby until 10 and we have to get the baby to some other child care earlier in the morning, we'll have to re-evaluate putting all of us on a different schedule and I am quite sure that will totally suck.

I think all research on human habits is necessarily marred by cultural and ideological bias. I'm not saying that research that shows that babies who sleep "better" with their parents is better research, I'm saying I find it all utterly unconvincing in the end - all I want from any of these books is techniques that comport with my own biases (i.e. there is no way I will ever let my kid cry it out and it's super unlikely I'd make my kid try to fall asleep in a room by herself - trust me, she will figure it out herself probably long before the time she wants privacy at bedtime) that will help me get my kid to sleep in a way that is appropriate for my family and for my kid's health.

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It doesn't say anything about it being unhealthy to bring baby into bed with you when they wakeup in the middle of the night, so I am not sure where you are getting that idea from.


Not necessarily from this book, but it's a common thread in sleep-training advice that babies have to be trained to sleep entirely in their own beds and not to expect any time sleeping with parents (I would say that nursing a baby in bed and then putting them back in their own bed doesn't qualify as sleeping with parents).

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I do think babies sleep better if they are not in the parents bed, but there are probably babies that sleep better with the parents.


I don't know what evidence we have in either direction - and again, the way we define "better" has to do with our personal and cultural expectations. There was a study done not so long ago about couples who slept together vs. couples who slept apart. The couples who slept together claimed to sleep better than the couples who slept apart. The couples who slept apart slept better according to various criteria (length of time to fall asleep, night wakings, whatever). This was supposed to be some kind of revolutionary finding because the data didn't agree with people's described experiences. But my question is, who cares? If you feel like you sleep better with your partner, why would you allow a study to tell you that you don't? Who defines better? And is it possible that in some cultures, better sleep for babies is defined as almost no night wakings/feedings and sleeping earlier or later, but in other cultures it's defined as: my baby nurses all night long, but because they're with me in bed I don't even notice them waking up and since I get a full night's sleep I can also say my baby sleeps great? I think people have to make individual determinations about what seems to work best for their families, obviously, and also decisions that make sense in their contexts. Some babies might sleep better with parents, but the reality of the parents' relationships or cultural norms might mean that baby needs to be taught how to sleep better alone. And some babies might sleep better alone, but the reality of their night feedings means it's much better for the mom's sleep if the baby is in bed with her or the reality of living in a one-room hut means everybody in the family sleeps in the same bed.

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Say babies know how to sleep, do we know to let them? Before I read the book I didnt realize how much sleep my baby needed and wanted.


I just don't understand this from my own experience. When Malka was first born she slept seemingly all the time (except at night of course), she slept after almost every nursing and sometimes through nursings (which meant she slept a chunk out of every 1.5). As she got a little bigger and it didn't feel necessary to be nursing/wearing her constantly, she stopped napping at every feeding and she developed very clear sleep cues that became disconnected from feeding. When she's presenting with some early sleep cues, we try to help her go to sleep with techniques that would help us go to sleep (provide the same space at home for every nap, make it quiet, shush her or if in public, wear her or walk her in her stroller). Often she starts with the sleep cues, but she still has tons of energy and excitement and there's no way she's falling asleep even in the most ideal conditions, so we respect that and try again in half an hour or an hour. I cannot imagine her sleeping more often or longer during the day time if she doesn't actually want to. I'm not keeping her up or overstimulating her, I'm trying to provide a nice cycle of wake up, build energy, do activities, wind down before she's obviously tired, sleep - and the reality is she sleeps on her own schedule during the day no matter what kind of structure I try to impose or help with.

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Anyway, there are things that I dont necessarily agree with in the book. It seems like every sleep expert wants to slam other methods, which I think is not very helpful. I think this book does that and so do recommendations from Dr Sears. Both have something to offer.


Quite true.


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 Post subject: Re: Sweet dreams (advice/questions about kid sleep)
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 1:53 pm 
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Its so true that they have their own schedules. I knew Leela was ready for hers because I came out of the kitchen to see her passed out in her exersaucer - face flat among the toys. You can tell I'm a n00b because I freaked out and woke her instead of grabbing the camera.

Whatever you end up doing is fine as long as it works for your family and doesn't hurt the baby. I co-sleep with Leela because she sleeps for a solid 5-6+ hours in bed with me and it is easy to feed her. When we put her in a crib, she wakes up after a bit and cries plus its a pain to go get her and feed her. If she slept really well in a crib, I'd be happy to do that. I don't think I am "spoiling" her by working with her needs.

My father still thinks I was the worst baby ever, because I woke up constantly and cried for food, but I suspect that I might have been like Leela and just wanted to sleep with my family.

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 Post subject: Re: Sweet dreams (advice/questions about kid sleep)
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 4:33 pm 
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@Bonnie, There's no need to feel guilty! If you're doing your best for you kid, then that's what matters. I know that, at least at 6 monthish, I wouldn't be able to handle a cry-it-out method. I feel strongly that cry it out with no comfort would be harmful to Freya, but that's our particular situation. There are so many variables.


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 Post subject: Re: Sweet dreams (advice/questions about kid sleep)
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 5:56 pm 
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My kid has spent all day wanting to nap. Does this mean a growth spurt might be underway?

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 Post subject: Re: Sweet dreams (advice/questions about kid sleep)
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 8:41 pm 
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Tofulish wrote:
My kid has spent all day wanting to nap. Does this mean a growth spurt might be underway?

I don't know, but it sounds wonderful. Enjoy it!


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 Post subject: Re: Sweet dreams (advice/questions about kid sleep)
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2012 5:38 am 
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Ariann wrote:
As she got a little bigger and it didn't feel necessary to be nursing/wearing her constantly, she stopped napping at every feeding and she developed very clear sleep cues that became disconnected from feeding. When she's presenting with some early sleep cues, we try to help her go to sleep with techniques that would help us go to sleep (provide the same space at home for every nap, make it quiet, shush her or if in public, wear her or walk her in her stroller).


It's hard to reply to a lot of what you are saying, because it seems like you are arguing against something else, and haven't read the book. It's great that you knew about sleep cues and could try to help your baby go to sleep when she needed to. I didn't get it until reading the book. Sometimes my baby is fussy because he is tired and until I realized that, I wasn't helping him get the sleep he needed. What I do now sounds like what you already do - find ways to help my baby sleep when he needs it. I haven't had to use the crying-it-out parts of the book. We tried for a couple naps, but it wasn't a good fit for us at the time. Also, Carlos has been doing very well most of the day. Evenings are another story. Anyway, the book is a lot more than crying-it-out (which I am not trying to disparage, I think that can help in some situations).

One of the main premises of the book is that "sleep begets sleep" and I am not sure I believed it before, but it's working and making me a believer. The book doesn't talk about fitting it to your schedule, it is about working with baby's natural schedule. You can believe that babies just know how to get enough sleep, but if that were the case, I don't think we would need this thread. Or is this thread about parents not getting enough sleep? Maybe. Carlos has been sleeping 8 hours without waking the last few days! If only the book could help me with my insomnia then maybe we would both be getting some sleep right now.


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